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Aug 17, 2011 -- 11:09AM, Caolin wrote:

Dear WoTC,

I want to first applaud the fact that you are finally venturing into the world of eBooks.  I think it is a positive move that will help others around the world enjoy DnD products.  But your decision to publish the up coming novel Shadowbane as an eBook only product will hurt customers of the Realms rather than help.  With this decision you are preventing those who either cannot afford an eReader or have chosen not to purchase one, from having access to the novel.

I will not attempt to guess the reasons for this decision in this letter, but at first glance it does not appear to be one with the customer first in mind.  I urge you to stick with publishing both print and eMedia until such time that the pricing of eMedia reaches reasonable and fair levels.  I have been a loyal customer of DnD and the Realms for well over 20 years.  It is a shame that I will not be able to enjoy Shadowbane due to it's unavailabilty in printed form.

For my fellow customers and fans, please respond to this post with your thoughts on this topic.  I feel it is an important one to all of us.

You have access to a computer? Barnes and Noble offers PC and Mac readers for its NookBooks.

www.bn.com 

I am objecting mostly to the price of eBooks.  I see this as a move to force people into the format without having to lure them into it with competitive pricing.  Besides, reading a novel sitting in front of my computer?  Not a real attractive option versus reading a print novel.  Why would I spend money for that?

Amazon’s Kindle is computer friendly too.

However, I won’t read novels this way; I have used the Kindle, did not enjoy it, and got rid of it.  If WotC was to publish all the existing 4E and Essentials rules and accessories this way, I might reconsider this option.

• Note: While the Compendium tool is great; it does not have everything in it, thus the books are still required.

As far as the money goes, I view it as replacing the cost of paper with the cost of the tech.  Hell if Erik was to place it on his own web page I'd gladly pay him the associated fees for reading it, cutting the middlemen out of completely, but sadly this isn't the way business works.

Yeah, some of us prefer to read real books, as apposed to staring at a screen.

Hello All,

Does anyone know what is the price point is for Shadowbane?

Do we know if Shadowbane would have been published in hardback format first, with softcover format to follow later (as with Salvatore's Realms novels)? Or would it have been published as a soft cover only?

If difference between the e-version of the novel vs. a paper novel of  roughly the same size and page count? One dollar? A couple dollars? Five  or more dollars?

I get the impression that WotC is experimenting: they're stepping into the e-reader market with this book and looking to see how it sells.

For me: I do not own an e-reader. On average, and over the last eight months, for every 3 paper books I purchase, I purchase 1 book through Google Books. I do this so that I can read these purchases on any internet-capable computer/laptop/phone/i-pad-like device.

In my opinion Kindles, and Nooks and e-readers in general are too restrictive. I'd rather be able to use portable devices that I already own.

Factoid: where I live I see quite a few people on the commuter train carrying their cellphone and work laptops. Roughly one in ten of these people also carry an e-reader.

Does anyone know if Shadowbane will be available through Google Books?

ATTN: James Wyatt & Mike Mearls

I am here because upon Erik Scott deBie's announcing on the Candlekeep Forums that Shadowbane was only receiving a e-book release, I mentioned a number of concerns I have about this. Erik then sent me a message saying that I should repost my concerns here. I encourage you to read the thread in its entirety, but here are the posts that I think are relevant to what Erik wanted me to convey:

My original post:

Originally posted by Hawkins
[br]I think my biggest problem with the e-book format is also price. I follow Micheal A. Stackpole on both the RSS feed for his blog and Twitter, and from his extensive research the sweet spot for e-books seems to be $5 USD. This is what I personally am willing to pay for an e-book over the pleasure of holding a print copy in my hand (in which case I am willing to pay $8-10). And I think that many readers are in this boat. Until big publishers realize this, I do not think that e-books produced by big publishers will do nearly as well as they would like them to. My other problem is trying to find an eReader that I can afford (this is where Stackpole and I disagree). He seems to be pushing his readers to go all-digital by speaking of how cutting out the costs of a few hardcovers a year would make up the cost of an eReader. The thing is, all I want a eReader for is those books that I cannot buy in any other format. Therefore, since I will still buy the 2-3 hardcovers and who-knows-how-many paperbacks a year, I still do not have extra cash for the initial purchase of an eReader. (Especially with a baby due in a month and a half. I love my future spawn, but babies do to money what rust monsters do to iron weapons.)

Richard Lee Byers' response:

Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Hawkins: You don't have to buy an eReader to partake of eBooks. Download the free Kindle app, the free Nook app, or both and you're good to go.

And my response to Richard Lee Byers:

Originally posted by Hawkins
Lol. That is assuming I can afford an expensive phone . And I have tried reading eBooks on a laptop and computer screen, and it just gives me a headache. So, as before, for me it is the start-up cost that is prohibitive.

I also suggest you read Micheal A. Stackpole's blog posts on the subject of e-publishing. Much of it is about self-publishing, but I think that much of it applies to traditional publishing companies just now trying to get in the e-book game as well.

Thank you for your time,
Tim "Hawkins" Wallace

Holy e-books from WotC Batman!

Did a search and found this D&D Novel eBooks archive. I had no idea WotC had a backlist of ebooks, much less one that was so extensive.

Note that e-books do not in fact save publishers "a ton of cost" relative to their up front cost to create the book. The cost to pay the author, pay the cover artist and any interior artist, to pay the editor(s)—including copyeditor and proofreader(s), marketing costs, etc...is far more.

Printing, binding and shipping product is expensive, but it amounts to (roughly) 10-20% of a given book's total production cost.

If a paper book costs, say, $5 to produce, print and ship, and if we follow the rule of doubling costs, then you're looking at a $10 retail price.

The e-book version should cost $4 (20% off of $5 is $4) to produce, with an e-book cost of $8.

As an aside, I don't know how anyone can conclude that WotC staff don't read these forums. I don't have a crystal ball that let's me see what they do and don't do at work, and I don't think anyone else does either.

EDIT: Here's a quick primer from Sean K. Reynolds (best Wizard's of the Coast game designer evar) on how sourcebooks are produced and the costs that go into them. Not exactly novels, but I think his commentary is on topic vis-a-vis this discussion.

Aug 18, 2011 -- 10:47AM, Mr_Miscellany wrote:

Holy e-books from WotC Batman!

Did a search and found this D&D Novel eBooks archive. I had no idea WotC had a backlist of ebooks, much less one that was so extensive.

Note that e-books do not in fact save publishers "a ton of cost" relative to their up front cost to create the book. The cost to pay the author, pay the cover artist and any interior artist, to pay the editor(s)—including copyeditor and proofreader(s), marketing costs, etc...is far more.

Printing, binding and shipping product is expensive, but it amounts to (roughly) 10-20% of a given book's total production cost.

If a paper book costs, say, $5 to produce, print and ship, and if we follow the rule of doubling costs, then you're looking at a $10 retail price.

The e-book version should cost $4 (20% off of $5 is $4) to produce, with an e-book cost of $8.

As an aside, I don't know how anyone can conclude that WotC staff don't read these forums. I don't have a crystal ball that let's me see what they do and don't do at work, and I don't think anyone else does either.

EDIT: Here's a quick primer from Sean K. Reynolds (best Wizard's of the Coast game designer evar) on how sourcebooks are produced and the costs that go into them. Not exactly novels, but I think his commentary is on topic vis-a-vis this discussion.

The cost savings from print to eBook might not be a ton but it isn't insignificant either.  Let's not fool ourseves, they are definitely cheaper to make.  So why is WoTC setting the list price the same as the print media?  As Hawkins stated with his Stackpole link, most are coming to the agreement that $4.99 is about the sweet spot for eBook pricing and average length novel.  

But you also can't just look at the cost savings of the actual creation of the book.  The customer loses out on the option to resell that printed book at a used book store.  Actually, the whole concept of owning the book comes into question when it is in it's digital form.  I mean, Amazon can delete your whole catalog off of their Kindle if it suited them.  So I think it is a little unfair of WoTC (or any publisher) to ask their customers to accept less in return for the same amount of money.

Oh, and thanks for the Sean K. Reynolds link.  That was an interesting read.

Aug 18, 2011 -- 11:50AM, Caolin wrote:

The cost savings from print to eBook might not be a ton but it isn't insignificant either.  Let's not fool ourseves, they are definitely cheaper to make.  So why is WoTC setting the list price the same as the print media?

Are they?

Softcover print books, such as Elminster in Hell and Elminster's Daughter, sell for $8 retail, as well as $8 on Amazon.com.

Shadowbane, a comparable book in the same softcover format, due in e-book format only, is on sale at Amazon.com for $6.39. Retail is $8, but since the book is in e-format only, it's effectively $6.39.

Whether Amazon sells at a discount or for full retail, they still pay WotC the same (35% to 70% of the retail price, depending on the deal WotC worked out with Amazon).

The decision to sell at the cheaper price wasn't WotC's, it was Amazon's.


Note: B&N has it at 6.99, with no mention as to whether this is a sale price or online retail price.

Aug 18, 2011 -- 11:50AM, Caolin wrote:

Oh, and thanks for the Sean K. Reynolds link.  That was an interesting read.

You're welcome!

Note sure if the parallel candlekeep.com discussion has been linked to yet, so here's a link just in case. Scroll down in that thread for another useful cost breakdown on what it costs to make a paperback book.

edit: Hawkinsthedm did link to the Candlekeep.com discussion, so now there's two links.

Not to interfere with the discussion (it's great to see people so interested!), but I wanted to mention another aspect to the e-book:

Aug 18, 2011 -- 11:50AM, Caolin wrote:

But you also can't just look at the cost savings of the actual creation of the book.  The customer loses out on the option to resell that printed book at a used book store.  Actually, the whole concept of owning the book comes into question when it is in it's digital form.  I mean, Amazon can delete your whole catalog off of their Kindle if it suited them.  So I think it is a little unfair of WoTC (or any publisher) to ask their customers to accept less in return for the same amount of money.

The e-book format for Shadowbane also allows a great deal of expanded material. It has a short story I wrote (ala the companion pieces I write for all my novels), info about Luskan, Plague Demons, and several sample chapters--none of which would have fit in a print book.

If print copies do become available, they will most likely not include these things (ala a DVD release without the director commentary and bonus features).

This is not to suggest that you absolutely need them (though I will attest that my story is awesome, no bias, of course), but that might explain a little about the price point being higher than one might expect. I am very sympathetic to the need to find the happy sweet spot on the price that's fair to everyone (you, me, WotC).

Cheers

Aug 18, 2011 -- 2:37PM, eriksdb wrote:

Not to interfere with the discussion (it's great to see people so interested!), but I wanted to mention another aspect to the e-book:

Aug 18, 2011 -- 11:50AM, Caolin wrote:

But you also can't just look at the cost savings of the actual creation of the book.  The customer loses out on the option to resell that printed book at a used book store.  Actually, the whole concept of owning the book comes into question when it is in it's digital form.  I mean, Amazon can delete your whole catalog off of their Kindle if it suited them.  So I think it is a little unfair of WoTC (or any publisher) to ask their customers to accept less in return for the same amount of money.

The e-book format for Shadowbane also allows a great deal of expanded material. It has a short story I wrote (ala the companion pieces I write for all my novels), info about Luskan, Plague Demons, and several sample chapters--none of which would have fit in a print book.

If print copies do become available, they will most likely not include these things (ala a DVD release without the director commentary and bonus features).

This is not to suggest that you absolutely need them (though I will attest that my story is awesome, no bias, of course), but that might explain a little about the price point being higher than one might expect. I am very sympathetic to the need to find the happy sweet spot on the price that's fair to everyone (you, me, WotC).

Cheers

Erik, that is great that extra material can and will be included in the eBook release of Shadowbane.  But I think a greater point is being missed here.  The fact that the print novel will not even be available for purchase.  At this point it may never be printed and may only remain an eBook.  This is the decision that I have the most trouble with.  It really upsets me that I will be missing out on your novel.

On the contrary, Caolin: I am merely making a side-note observation, because an earlier post questioned the value of the e-book as compared to the paper version. This is in no way meant to distract or detract from the discussion at hand.

Indeed, part of my post detailed the fact that if the book were to be published in a paper version, it would be missing these things. This serves absolutely to demonstrate that a paper version is possible. So you should definitely keep talking about it.

I haven't posted much in this thread, seeing as it's an obvious conflict of interest. But I would highly encourage the discussion to continue, and reiterate that those who feel strongly about this issue should forward their words along.

Cheers

Aug 18, 2011 -- 4:32PM, eriksdb wrote:

On the contrary, Caolin: I am merely making a side-note observation, because an earlier post questioned the value of the e-book as compared to the paper version. This is in no way meant to distract or detract from the discussion at hand.

Indeed, part of my post detailed the fact that if the book were to be published in a paper version, it would be missing these things. This serves absolutely to demonstrate that a paper version is possible. So you should definitely keep talking about it.

I haven't posted much in this thread, seeing as it's an obvious conflict of interest. But I would highly encourage the discussion to continue, and reiterate that those who feel strongly about this issue should forward their words along.

Cheers

I completely understand and respect what you have to say.  Thank you for the words of encouragement.   

Hi folks!

I've ventured here from the Candlekeep forum. I don't think I can't add much to the discussion other than to back those who would like Erik's novel to be released as a paperback as well.

I'm really glad that Erik's participating in this discussion and giving us some insight. I enjoyed all his previous novels, and I'm convinced I will enjoy "Shadowbane" as well, but I don't actually have a chance to enjoy the book.

I, for example, can afford an e-Reader etc. but it won't replicate the experience of reading an actual paperback. What's more, I don't find the prices of ebooks high (I find them, and the printed novels, actually very cheap - though it is a biased opinion because of my good financial standing).
Dear WotC, it's not always about money, really... it's about the experience of a physical book. Ebooks don't appeal to me, and I can't change that. I think you are loosing a significant group of potential customers.

So, Whoever Is In Charge of the Novels Department, please hear us, and rethink your decision about publishing "Shadowbane" (and any other future novel) exclusively in an electronic format.

Aug 19, 2011 -- 2:31PM, Elsenrail wrote:

I'm really glad that Erik's participating in this discussion and giving us some insight. I enjoyed all his previous novels, and I'm convinced I will enjoy "Shadowbane" as well, but I don't actually have a chance to enjoy the book.

I'm sorry about that as well, Elsenrail.

Cheers

Just to be clear up front, I hope this works out one way or the other for Erik because I like his previous books and I think he is a good guy after my interactions with him. I also hope whatever ends up happening works out for WotC because I want more FR books and it's pointless wishing ill will upon a company like WotC over a decision I don't agree with. I am also considering trying to get this book despite my reservations about reading it on my computer because I want to know what happens next in this story. I am also aware that a statement like that probably weakens my position, but it's the truth.


Having said all of that, if I get the book I would be getting it in digital format very reluctantly and only because I really want to read this book. I would probably not be giving it serious thought if it were an unknown author. I am in agreement with Elsenrail that a noticeable part of my enjoyment of reading is in the actual physical product. I like to be able to look at my bookshelf and see my books. I like to know that Amazon can't pull some shenanigans and delete my book that I should own. I like to own a physical copy. I understand the advantages to most parties of going digital. They make sense. However, I think a number of people prefer physical copies and going all digital is a mistake.  


So, again, I hope this doesn't negatively impact Erik or WotC and I may still get the book in this format if I have no other choice, but I don't think this is the way to go and I would be very reluctant to buy books with no favorable track record for the elements involved (characters, author, setting, etc) to read this way.        

I object to ebooks because you can't get them signed. :P

I dunno. I've read a fair few novels now on my phone(kindle app for blackberry). It started with Elaine Cunningham's Honor Among Thieves, and continued when I got bored at work with the first book of the Erevis Cale trilogy, which quickly turned into the rest of said trilogy and the Twilight War trilogy.

Thing is, while it's a convenient format for reading on the go, it's just not a book. :| Tellingly, I still bought the physical Erevis Cale trilogy omnibus despite having already bought the ebook versions. That way I can easily flip through looking for things I've forgotten or find that one scene I want to read again, things that aren't easy or even necessarily possible in the app.

I'll buy the ebook of Shadowbane, of course, and I'll read it on my phone, largely at work in down periods. But it will irk me that I don't have a physical copy. :|

thats the reason why I agree Nai calus.

unless wotc releases a e copy with an alternate  criedts page, thats signed... I"m not going aout of my way either 

I wonder if some enterprising techie could create a program whereby an author could digitally sign an ebook. Hmm . . .

I'll pop back out of the thread so as not to distract anyone, but I wanted to add two things:

1) I'd like to suggest that we all post in this thread with the stated goal of finding a reasonable solution that makes everyone happy (you, me, WotC). This should not be just about airing unhappiness but rather discussing solutions.

2) Thanks for the support, guys! It really does make my day.

Cheers

Aug 24, 2011 -- 7:35AM, eriksdb wrote:

I wonder if some enterprising techie could create a program whereby an author could digitally sign an ebook. Hmm . . .

While digital signatures have been around for a while, I’d be worried about its capacity to be lifted from the document for darker reasons.  Often these are made as an overlay to the true document, which once removed can be embedded in another document.  So security could be a problem.

Besides the personal value of the signed copy, there is also an inherently increase value to certain collectors.  I was offered $500 for my signed, 1st print, copy of Jordan’s “Wheel of Time’; but since I’m a collector myself I turned it down.  Perhaps it will be with something to my heirs.

Aug 24, 2011 -- 7:35AM, eriksdb wrote:

I'd like to suggest that we all post in this thread with the stated goal of finding a reasonable solution that makes everyone happy (you, me, WotC). This should not be just about airing unhappiness but rather discussing solutions.

Simple solution – publish a print version.  You and WotC will get more circulation; consequently, more money and perhaps new fans and gamers; and I get what I want.  Otherwise WotC, as well as yourself and other writers, have lost the cabal of book lovers and myself. 

Aug 24, 2011 -- 4:00PM, morandir62 wrote:

Simple solution – publish a print version.  You and WotC will get more circulation; consequently, more money and perhaps new fans and gamers; and I get what I want.  Otherwise WotC, as well as yourself and other writers, have lost the cabal of book lovers and myself. 

No doubt that SEEMS like a simple solution, but simply saying it that way fails to take into account the many variations of print publication. Major print and distribution as they've done before, limited runs, print on demand, etc., etc.

I do want to clarify that *I*, the author, am not the one making these decisions. If I could personally print physical copies and fly to your house and put them in your hands, believe me, I would do so. Heck, if I could go on a tour where I just sat around and read the book to halls full of people, that would be great. But I understand that WotC has to consider its means and the market.

But it is extremely worthwhile to talk about your desire (or even demand) for print versions.

Cheers

Aug 24, 2011 -- 4:37PM, eriksdb wrote:

No doubt that SEEMS like a simple solution, but simply saying it that way fails to take into account the many variations of print publication.  Major print and distribution as they've done before, limited runs, print on demand, etc., etc.  But I understand that WotC has to consider its means and the market.

As Holmes said "Data, data, data – I cannot make bricks without clay" (The Adventure of the Copper Beeches) without data we cannot come up with a true solution; so we the consumer must stick with what we view as the simplist – PRINT.

Aug 24, 2011 -- 4:37PM, eriksdb wrote:

I do want to clarify that *I*, the author, am not the one making these decisions. If I could personally print physical copies and fly to your house and put them in your hands, believe me, I would do so. Heck, if I could go on a tour where I just sat around and read the book to halls full of people, that would be great.

But it is extremely worthwhile to talk about your desire (or even demand) for print versions.

Hopefully, WotC is also listening to our talks here, including yours, for a print version.  Your earnest offer to “fly and deliver” shows how much you, as an author, value both your consumers and fans.  Hopefully they will too.

I’ve been to author book readings and like a great movie trailer they highlight the book through selected excerpts living wanting for more.  Not to mention the face time that comes with the experience. 
 

Wishful thinking is just that: wishful thinking. But if I had my wishes come true, I'd find the means to finance Realms author readings in bookstores (retail and locally owned/operated), FLGSs and Cons.

I'd also finance a limited print run of Shadowbane: one that can only be had if you come to the reading of same and collect the book from the author's hands after you've shaken his hand.

Or is that railroading?

Aug 24, 2011 -- 6:03PM, morandir62 wrote:

As Holmes said "Data, data, data – I cannot make bricks without clay" (The Adventure of the Copper Beeches) without data we cannot come up with a true solution; so we the consumer must stick with what we view as the simplist – PRINT.

I appreciate the quote, but do you mean print-on-demand? A full printing cycle with international distribution? Totally different propositions.

Logically, to take you at your word, it seems all I have to do is provide the simplest solution, which is print ONE copy, and then claim that it's a printed edition. And clearly I don't want that.

Well, unless I'm the one who gets the copy. :D

Hopefully, WotC is also listening to our talks here, including yours, for a print version.  Your earnest offer to “fly and deliver” shows how much you, as an author, value both your consumers and fans.  Hopefully they will too.

I’ve been to author book readings and like a great movie trailer they highlight the book through selected excerpts living wanting for more.  Not to mention the face time that comes with the experience. 

Why thank you, and I absolutely do not disagree. Author readings are a great place to sell books.

Aug 25, 2011 -- 9:09AM, Mr_Miscellany wrote:

I'd also finance a limited print run of Shadowbane: one that can only be had if you come to the reading of same and collect the book from the author's hands after you've shaken his hand.
Or is that railroading?

That sounds like awesomeness, actually.

Aug 25, 2011 -- 3:20PM, Jorunhast wrote:

Clearly, someone wants to have Erik's secret love child.
RUN ERIK!  RUN FOR YOUR LIFE!!!

Oh bother! :expeditious retreat:

Cheers

the one problem with a limited pritn run that you have to get at the meeting with the author is that the authors go only so far and if they don't  go near  where you live, signed book is not worth the price of gas or a plane ticket....

now if said limited run composes an alternate cover, thats different 

WotC has shown a willingness to experiment, so alternate covers sounds good to me.

Maybe WotC could work a deal with their printer(s?) to print and bind 100 copies of an already in-print novel with an alternate cover and an alternate, extended forward from the author and/or editor.

These copies could be given away as prizes at GenCon, given away at author signings or randomly inserted in book shipments to retailers.

The kicker would be that both the print and e-versions of book would both have to reach a minimum threshold of sales (to cover the cost of comissioning the artwork and forward).

WotC could post sales numbers and ask us to get the word out to try and drive sales up.

If WotC's making a little extra on e-sales, that's one way to give something back to the fans, esp. if they try to help get books bought.

Edit: WotC could also sponsor a charity give away of books or even a percentage of funds by tying book sales to drives for these services. Might seem hokey at first, but if WotC is accountable (by showing sales figures) to readers, I think some or even most readers would be willing to pay extra for a print or e-book if a portion went to a cause related to reading/charity.

I just think its funny that if you want the game books (legally) you have to buy them in print, but the novels are now going to be all digital!?

Im sure they will make a print copy, eventually. Im thinking this is just a test, they realease the digital one first and look at sales figures, then a few months later theyll release it in print form and compare sales figures, that what im thinking.

And another thing, another thing about having a real book is that I sort of consider myself a collector. Its nice to look over at the bookshelf and see stacks of Realms novels, how in the Sam Hill am I going to add a digital "book" to the stack!?

And, Ive just had another thought, Theres a few sites you can go to to get "bootlegged" digital copies of the game books (or so ive been told), so now im wondering, are there gonna be shady characters in alleyways saying, "pssst, hey buddy, wanna buy a print copy of Shadowbane?"

Erik, since I've been talking physical print version novels I doubt I'd except print on demand.

I also have no clue how you arrived at the logical conclusion that I would except a single copy being print as a simple solution to the lack of a mass market publication of a print version.

Aug 26, 2011 -- 1:59AM, The_Silversword wrote:

And, Ive just had another thought, Theres a few sites you can go to to get "bootlegged" digital copies of the game books (or so ive been told), so now im wondering, are there gonna be shady characters in alleyways saying, "pssst, hey buddy, wanna buy a print copy of Shadowbane?"

Yes, bootlegs are easily obtained, but are illegal to do so; additionally, why?  The only thing we wind up doing is screwing the industry, which instead of prosecuting the criminals acts in a knee jerk reaction and yanks all the digital products from the shelves.  This not only hurt the reputation of the company with its consumers, but also hurt the online business community.

I’d rather buy the print version, than steal the author’s work – and since I do not read e-books (novels) in the first place it seems rather self-defeating to do get a bootleg copy anyway.

Aug 26, 2011 -- 12:44PM, morandir62 wrote:

Erik, since I've been talking physical print version novels I doubt I'd except print on demand.

Ah, but print on demand DOES product physical print versions. Since all you said was "print," my question is still valid.

I also have no clue how you arrived at the logical conclusion that I would except a single copy being print as a simple solution to the lack of a mass market publication of a print version.

Simply a logical exercise. You invoked Sherlock Holmes, so in that spirit I offered a logically-sound though obviously insufficient reply to your suggestion of "PRINT."

This was my way of demonstrating that your request wasn't specific enough, and that the issue is more complicated than "print copies exist" vs. "print copies don't exist." Your scenario of "PRINT" isn't the simplest answer, but rather an incomplete answer.

I apologize for being confusing--I was simply rising to your logical challenge.

Cheers

Then once again let me be (very) specific.

I want a mass-market paperback, with a paperboard cover and bound with glue, edition of the novel Shadowbane, as well as other WotC novels, to be published in the “A Format”, although a limited run of a hardback version is expectable addition to this there is not much use for a trade paperback version unless the entire series will be made available in the “C Format”.

Understood.

Cheers

Aug 26, 2011 -- 3:34PM, morandir62 wrote:

Then once again let me be (very) specific.

I want a mass-market paperback, with a paperboard cover and bound with glue, edition of the novel Shadowbane, as well as other WotC novels, to be published in the “A Format”, although a limited run of a hardback version is expectable addition to this there is not much use for a trade paperback version unless the entire series will be made available in the “C Format”.

This! +++1

There's another issue with the novels going ebook only. The vast majority of the ebook catalog is only available in the US. To most of you it's not a problem, but there're a lot of fans all over the world that won't be able to read the new novels if this isn't addressed. 

While I'm able to import "regular" books to my country and read them that way, I can't import an ebook. Amazon, B&N and the rest of the ebook stores just won't let me buy them.

If this is how it's going to be from now on, you're gonna have at least one very unhappy fan. 

Please refrain from personal attacks and flaming, these are violations of the Code of Conduct.

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@ORC_Ragnar: Indeed.

This thread seems to have been devoid of personal attacks thus far, and I hope to keep it that way.

Thanks to all of you for your patience and civility.

Cheers

Aug 17, 2011 -- 11:09AM, Caolin wrote:

But your decision to publish the up coming novel Shadowbane as an eBook only product will hurt customers of the Realms rather than help.  With this decision you are preventing those who either cannot afford an eReader or have chosen not to purchase one, from having access to the novel.

I second this. Publishing e-book only FR novels is currently causing me to seriously considering to stop reading FR novels at all. I will go on hiatus buying any new FR novels after finishing the few I have currently already on my to read pile.

I always wanted to read all FR novels and now that I am finally less than 30 away to be at the bleeding edge of the release schedule I have to find out about FR novels that are only in a format I have no interest in buying.

If I can't put Shadowbane next to it's 220+ fellows I have no interest in buying it and currently a greatly lessened interest in buying any other FR novel either.

 

Sure, I know that such point would eventually come when I might not have the time to read FR novels "speedily" and fall more and more behind the release schedule or the point when I just decide that I have become "too old for this ####" or that WotC would eventually switch to ebooks only.

However as the first two points are yet untrue I just hoped that the third point wouldn't come true so soon.

Some thoughts:
I collect physical copies of FR and DL novels. I won't buy an eBook copy.
Some enterprising person will sell custom bound versions of the book for 30 or 40 bucks. There will be many people to line up and buy these black market books.
Ebooks will eventually be given away "free" (included in the low low price) with the paper version of a book.
Ebooks will eventually drop in price as the novilty of the technology fades.
Prices for paper bound books will rise as ebook prices drop.
Potentially, in the future, bound copies of these books will only be available on demand from sites sucsh as lulu.com.

The short answer for me... to keep me spending mony on Wizards fiction I need to be able to buy physical copies of the books.

I'd also like to point out that I cant sit on my backside reading anything on my pc for very long.
I end up taking a nap 

Sep 4, 2011 -- 6:11PM, nexus99 wrote:

Some enterprising person will sell custom bound versions of the book for 30 or 40 bucks. There will be many people to line up and buy these black market books.

As much as I like the ever growing rack bays of novel spines proudly displaying their FR logo decorating my flat, I just wouldn't start to buy "black market" paperbacks. I'd rather simply stop reading FR novels and use my newly won freetime for one of the thousands of other things vying for my freetime. 

Just wanted to voice my complaint about the ebook only format for Shadowbane. I love Mr. de Bie's work but will not purchase the ebook format. I enjoy reading the print form of books since I have to sit in front of a computer all day and the last thing I want to do is sit in front of it to read a book. Even the e-readers are good only in small doeses so as I don't mind reading short stories every now and then, I can sit there reading a full length novel. Even if Mr. Salvatore's new book came out as an ebook only, I would not have purchased that, so please WotC, publish a print version of Shadowbane so I can read and enjoy the story as I know I will. Thank you.

Sep 1, 2011 -- 8:03PM, claudiodgonzalez wrote:

There's another issue with the novels going ebook only. The vast majority of the ebook catalog is only available in the US. To most of you it's not a problem, but there're a lot of fans all over the world that won't be able to read the new novels if this isn't addressed. 

While I'm able to import "regular" books to my country and read them that way, I can't import an ebook. Amazon, B&N and the rest of the ebook stores just won't let me buy them.

If this is how it's going to be from now on, you're gonna have at least one very unhappy fan. 

Hi there - just adding my voice here and echoing the above point; I live in the UK, and right now I can't buy Shadowbane at all. I preordered a print copy from Amazon UK (only available due to some confusion, apparently) which was subsequently cancelled. I have a Kindle, but can't buy US titles, and Shadowbane isn't available on the Kindle UK catalogue. Even though I can download the Nook PC app, the Nook system requires a US billing address.

So, essentially, even though I am absolutely happy to buy an e-book version, and Kindle is available in the UK, there is no way for me to do so. I'm sat here with money to burn, and I can't buy this book.

Now, I understand there can be licensing complications and the like, but it's a pretty frustrating experience, especially when the Wizards website assumes you're from the US and just directs you to Amazon.com and Nook websites.

I can understand people having personal preferences between ebooks and physical books and favouring one or the other, but I don't even have that choice - it's essentially a lost sale.

I shall continue to wait optimistically...

I have a computer, could get the book through that however wotc is being foolish and will regret not putting this out on paperback because us old school folk ......would rather have a choice of ebook or paperback and alot would and do enjoy paper still even in todays E-world. I was really looking forward to reading this book,....guess I'll spend my money elsewhere.

As a side note I feel bad for Erik he had no say in the format and although I really really like the character (Shadowbane)  I can't see going and getting a Kindle or such at this time or the foreseeable future.

 (sorry Erik )  

I was browsing through Amazon to see the latest novels in the D&D line, and I kept coming across eBook after eBook thinking,"Where are the print editions?" A little googling clued me in that WOTC is gradually moving away from print... even with releases by some of their better-known authors that tie-in to major events, it seems they have given up on print and gone eBook only.

I guess at 31 years old I am officially an old fogey... I love holding a physical book in my hands. I don't think I'm going to change with the times... no matter how great the device, I just don't find it comfortable to stare at a screen for the amount of time it takes to read a novel (not to mention the health risks... any electronic device gives off a certain amount of radiation, which is not a problem if you use it intermittently, but if you're staring at it for hours at a time...), so I guess I just won't be able to read the WOTC books I wanted to.

I apologize to the talented authors here whose works I really wanted to read... if for some reason WOTC decides to print these stories, please let us know... I, for one, would definitely pick them up.

Last year, approximately 1/3 of the bookstore shelf space in the United States went away.  Publisher, writers, and readers are faced with necessary adjustments. As much as I love traditional books, I suspect that they will become more of a luxury than the norm.

I also think that POD will become more common, and I really hope WotC will consider this option. This would be a boon to collectors who want to replace a tattered or lost copy of, say, Azure Bonds, as well as readers who prefer hard copies to digital versions. The problem there, of course, is price. Readers will end up paying more for a paper copy, and/or publishers and authors will receive less. But if there is a significant number of readers who would not otherwise purchase the book, a POD format might be a viable option.

I've started looking into this sort of thing, as it's my intention to release the first Tales of Sevrin trilogy as a print omnibus in trade paperback. Traditionally published trade paperback usually sell in the $14.99 neighborhood, and as it turns out, I can probably match that price and still earn a little bit per sale. But CreateSpace is for independant authors, not publishers. I have no idea of the terms a publisher such as WotC would receive from a POD arrangement, or what price they'd have to set to make it economically viable. 

E-book pricing is another difficult issue. Selling an e-riginal book for close to paperback prices makes sense to me. You have many of the same costs: editing, formatting, art, cover design, advances and royalties, and distribution. Distribution is a significant expense, as electronic bookstores take a big cut of the purchase price. That said, I'd love to see the price of electronic "reprints" of back list books drop significantly. There are still costs involved--formatting, distribution, royalties--but certain costs such as editing, art, and author advances were paid long ago. Lower prices of back list books would encourage long-time readers to build an electronic library of FR books and give new readers another reason to enter the Realms.

Thank you for your enlightening insight, Elaine! 

Cheers

I didn't realize we had lost so much shelf space, and that's saddening.  I really dislike e-reading, it just doesn't feel right.  Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I love to stretch out on my couch with a book, and 12 hours later come back to the real world and be hungry for the next book in the series (I actually read an entire Robert Jordan Wheel Of Time book in one sitting, 14 hours on a flight to Korea).

e-readers...just don't get it done for me.  I certainly understand the economics of the situation, but I don't have to like it.  that said, I do appreciate authors such as yourself and Ms Cunningham (I am still saddened you had to kill off Fyodor BTW) taking the time to address concerns like these.  It's awfully easy for us as consumers to stamp our feet and cry "this is terrible", and it makes it easier to understand and accept when we know that it's the only way for the stories to be told.

While some time ago I was also against eBooks, prefering to read on paper after a long day in front of corporate computer screens, the real eReaders like Kindle have convinced me that for me eBooks are an equal option to paper books. Not better, not worse.

So far so good, now here's the problem:

I bought a Kindle in the US, because I love reading Forgotten Realms novels and I wanted to read more often and without the logistics hassle (I live outside the US).
Connect to Kindle Store and what do I see? Almost no Forgotten Realms eBooks available! Why? Because they are basically only available in the US! Why? No idea!

So, I can ship any physical Forgotten Realms book around half the globe without any constraints (it is more expensive and loathsome, but no one prevents me from doing so). But when in the 21st century I want to download the very same book as an eBook on my Kindle, I can't, because I don't live in the US and it cannot be "delivered" electronically to countries due to legal issues. But there are no legal issues on physical books.

Without wanting to detail out here more explicitly, how I feel about that, here comes the next problem:

As it does not serve me for what I bought it for (downloading FR novels), I could use the Kindle as a kitchen board, frisbee or whatever else, and simply order books like "Shadowbane" from Erik Scott de Bie as paper book. But hey guess what: WotC does not only not allow me to purchase that book as an eBook outside the US, I cannot buy it as a paper book neither because there is none!

So, what is an Forgotten Realms fan who lives outside the US going to do when he cannot access eContent and there is no paper content available?

WotC, whatever your motives for the eBook restrictions outside the US may be.... if you do not give me at least the alternative to blast more CO2 to the atmosphere by moving a physical book around half the globe instead of downloading an eBook which also provides you a way better margin, then where am I supposed to spend my money on your products?

This is a lost sale, and a lost fan. Why? For what? I don't get it....  Please explain it to me! I am really open to make an effort to understand whatever reason you might have.

Is WotC being "foolish" for only publishing "Shadowbane" as an ebook?  No.  Please don't confuse your personal preferences for the reality on the ground.  WotC realizes that publishing, as an industry, is moving faster and faster to the digital model, and they are (rightfully) experimenting in the market.  While Erik and his fans might prefer they experiment with some other author's novel, somebody's got to be the guinea pig, and it won't be Salvatore.

I'm fairly certain that "Shadowbane" is the only D&D novel published digitally only (so far, excepting backlist titles), so WotC is not currently "abandoning" the print market as someone claimed upthread.  However, IMO, that's where things are headed eventually.

Personally, I used to collect "physical" D&D novels like others in this thread, but roughly a year ago I sold my entire collection to the used bookstore and have been purchasing both new and backlist titles for my Kindle.  And I love it!  I purchased "Shadowbane" (also "Downshadow") and thoroughly enjoyed both the novel and the "DVD extras" included.  Now, are my preferences superior to those who dislike ebooks?  Of course not.  Are my tastes more in line with the majority of D&D novel fans?  Eh, maybe, maybe not.  That, of course, is part of WotC's experiments in the digital publishing market.

I am incredibly happy that WotC is releasing an ever-growing back catalog of classic novels as ebooks.  I am incredibly happy that all of WotC's new novels are being released as ebooks.  I'm interested in seeing how things play out with novels released "only" as ebooks, although I don't object to print versions being released at some point.

For the record, I support WotC's experiment in pushing my book as an e-book only. I was, after all, the first one to announce it and have been a tireless advocate for the book, regardless of form.

Would I have preferred not to be the guinea pig author? Sure, but it is what is, and we play with the hand we're dealt.

I do think e-publishing is the way of the future. I just think we're not quite there--particularly when a book going digital only means *fewer* people can read it, rather than more. Whether it's because you live outside the U.S., because you don't have/can't afford an e-reader, or you simply like the feel and experience of reading an actual paper book, I adamantly support you having access to the books you want to read, and it's troubling to me when my work gets in the hands of fewer readers.

I don't write for the money (which isn't much). I do it because I love telling stories and having them be read. That's my priority.

Cheers

I have mixed feelings on the issue. The reasoning is pretty obvious from WotC's side and is hard to argue, but sometimes it's good to take action with these sorts of things. Google seems to do a pretty good job at that.

I'm starting to fancy some sort of subscription based thing, where you get access to each new novel that comes out (minimum one per month) in e-format for a monthly fee of some kind.

Well I for one was very much looking forward to reading the next chapter in the books and reading more about the character Shadowbane, if only they would put it out as paperback and kindle etc but i don't have the funds to go buy something like that.

I haven't followed this thread in a while but I have posted an update at Candlekeep.  So I guess I should post an update here since I started the thread.  

Back in December I recieved a Kindle Fire as a gift.  I'm not the type of guy to return a gift from someone so I rolled with it and went ahead and bought the last book in the Chosen of Nendawen trilogy as an eBook.  My first realization was that buying "paperback" eBooks on Amazon was cheaper than buying the physical copies, when you factor in shipping.  Granted, I still think $6.39 is a bit much for a normal eBook.  Thye need to either increase the length of novels or include some really cool filler.  I think Erik's Shadowbane eBook was a good example.  The extra shot story and game errata made the $6.39 price feel more reasonable.  But I would still like to see the eBooks sold at around $5.  

As for the "hardcover" eBooks, I am still planning on boycotting those because there is no way you can justify $15 for an eBook that is the exact same word length as its future paperback release will be.  At this point, the higher price only buys you the exclusive right to read it now rather than 6-10 months later.  This is a bad precident to set.  This tactic will lead to piracy, which I am sure nobody wants.  Again, if you are going to sell at this price point then make it worth that price.

So my experience with the Kindle Fire and reading an eBook was pretty amazing.  The ease of purchase was nice if a bit dangerous.  Reading an eBook on the Fire was exactly the experience I've been waiting for.  Despite my love of books I have never been a hardcore bibliophile.  There are frustrating aspects of reading a hard copy book.  Using both hands, finding adequate light, taking up space.  The Kindle answered all of these concerns for me.  Other bonuses include the ability to instantly look up the defenition of a word or wiki the name of some person or place in the novel is great.  I also love the ability to quickly search novels I have read before in order to help clarify a scene in a new book.  Given the year that comes between most connected books, I can see this being very useful.  I also love the fact that I can adjust the page and font color, as well as the font type and spacing.

Now the Kindle Fire isn't perfect.  Their bookshelf is still pretty lame since you can't customize the sorting.  In the long run this will be very annoying unless they allow the user to create personal folders.  The fact that it has no wi-fi means that you have to make sure everything you want to access is on the device if you are going to be traveling.  I was hit by this while listening to an audiobook.  I went on a trip and forgot that the book was streaming off the cloud. 

So in summary, I am sold on eBooks and I will most likey stop buying print except for special cirumstances.  I will still refuse to buy products that I feel are overpriced and I implore WoTC to keep their prices reasonable.  We want to support you and the Realms so don't force us to choose not to.

   

So if we're to be kind of pushed into buying a ebook by WotC may I ask what is the $$$ difference in producing a paperback vs a ebook because it is about a $1 difference between what the average paperback costs the fans an a ebook.

WotC maybe since your wanting to lead us (by the nose) into the ebook future  you could lower the cost of your ebook... and lead that revolution as well aye.

I am of two schools on this for some my books I would love to see in the digital format.  I am lugging a heavy biology book and if I have kindle that had color pixels on it I would buy it.  Other than having a limit space to store stuff I it is helpful to have in e book format but I like the flipping of pages of the old fasion book.  I bought the source books in old fasion format and newer paper back books in e-book format.  Pragmatics versus desires it is a judgement call. 

Sorry to revive a necro-topic


I am not sure this is right place to post this anyways.


I pre-order Demon Weave  but it says on Amazon that it's release date is Jan 1 2035.  I am patiant but not that patiant. Is this a mistake?     

A long rant ahead.  You've been warned...

...

So there I was, reading “The Mark of Nerath” in order to get an idea of the new setting for D&D 4E when I see at the back of the book a list of five more novels in a new “Abyssal Plague” series. 

Sounds cool.  When do they come out? 

Ah.  Very well then.  So I wait.  Months pass and then I see the first novel on the bookshelves.  Good, but I know this is part of a series and I’d rather read the entire thing in one go as opposed to starting the series, stopping for a month or two and forgetting what’s what and who’s who, and so on.  So I don’t read the book yet.  I wait for the next.

Then I see the next one on the bookshelves.  Hurray!  Two down, three to go.  Waiting, waiting, and the next one arrives.  Then the fourth.  So all I need is the fifth, this “Shadowbane” by Erik Scott de Bie, and then I’ll be able to read the Abyssal Plague.

So I wait.  It’s not out yet.  Maybe it got delayed, so I’ll be patient.  A month past its advertised release date passes and still no book.  Two months.  Three.  Did they advertise it at first and then later decide to forgo this book.  I know some 4E supplement books got delayed so maybe the same thing happened here.  I wonder what the product catalog says.

No, it says “Shadowbane” is already out.  Odd that I haven’t seen it in any of the bookstores yet.  What’s going on?  Finally, I go the extra step of looking at the bookstores’ online sites to see if I can order it (yes, “extra step”, for I did not have to do this for the other four books).  Huh?  E-book?  Nook book?  What about just the regular, printed-on-actual-physical-paper book?

What do you mean it’s only available as an E-book?  Was that in the advertisements?  What did “The Mark of Nerath” say?  It only advertises “The Temple of Yellow Skulls” (with no mention of this series coming out 80% as printed books and 20% as E-books, may I add?).  Okay, what does “Temple” say? 

Aha!  Here we have a list of all five “Abyssal Plague” series books.  Yes, this is exactly what I was following when I was on the lookout for the other four novels.  Any indication of one of them being an E-book and only an E-book?

“Find these novels at your favorite bookseller.  Also available as e-books.”  Hmm.  No, that doesn’t qualify.  “Also available as e-books” is a far cry from “If you don’t have an E-reader or a Nook, you will not be able to finish this series”.  Did the other novels mention that?  Still a bit cheap to wait until after a trusting customer has begun collecting/reading a novel series to announce that he may end up being screwed over, but any warning at all is still better than none.

“Sword of the Gods”?  No.  “Under the Crimson Sun”?  No.  “Oath of Vigilance”?  Well, we have the announcement for the third book of the main series (“The Eye of the Chained God&rdquo, which is nice, but still no warning that those of us without E-readers are forevermore doomed to enjoy four-fifths (now, five-sixths) of the main series for 4E while having the last fraction held dangling beyond our reach.

What the hell, WotC?  Who kicked whose dog that you felt it was necessary to lash out like this?  I mean, what is the logic of releasing a series of novels, of printed in paper books, only to switch gears like that? 

An experiment into the realm of E-books, to see how they sell, you say.  That’s no reason at all.  “The Last Garrison”?  A stand-alone novel.  Not part of any pre-existing series nor the start of any future series in the planning.  Read: the perfect candidate for an experiment of this nature.  A book that’s already a part of another series that was already being released in paper-form?  Not a candidate.  What’s incredible is that this actually has to be said, that it’s not common-fricking-sense.

Making the entire six-book series E-book only would have been more humane.  Sure, we non-E-readers would miss out, but at least we’re not having our seven-year-old brother sitting in the car next to us holding his finger an inch away from our shoulder declaring “I’m not touching you!  I’m not touching you!”  That’s the maturity of this decision, WotC.

Fine.  Whatever.  I’ve paid good money on the rest of these books and I don’t want that to go to waste.  So how do I get ahold of this E-book?  How do E-books work?  Does it require an Internet connection, such that someone with a home computer not connected to the Internet is SOL with Ebooks?  Can I download it from a connected computer to a USB key and then read it at home?  May I point out again that this headache did
not exist with the other four (five)?

I find out I need to pay electronically and I need to have an account with (in my case) Barnes & Noble.  Well, I’ve got the account (which I didn’t need for the others) but what does “pay electronically” mean?  Can I use a B&N gift card?

Turns out the answer is yes.  At any computer hooked up to the Internet, log in to your B&N account and you can pay via a gift card.  So I try at my earliest convenience.  I even get a little pop-up window reminding me that I’m perfectly able to use a B&N gift card to pay for Nook Books.

So why am I being sent to a screen asking me for my credit card information?  I don’t have a credit card, I have a gift card.  A gift card I would desperately love to use to pay for this book if the damn screen would only let me!  It even told me I could use a gift card so, once again, what the hell?  (By the way, this still isn’t an issue with B&N, it’s an issue with WotC.  B&N wasn’t the company who decided releasing “Shadowbane” as an E-Book only would be a good thing.)

So I go back to the store and ask what’s going on (remember that part about “my earliest convenience”?  This isn’t convenient, folks).  I’m told that even though it can be bought with a gift card, it must still have a credit card account tied to the file for security purposes.  Well and good, but what do I do?  I didn’t have to buy a credit card for the other books, so I’m not buying one for this book.

A Visa checking card will stand in.  I can find one at Wal-Mart, but I have to make sure it’s reloadable (as opposed to the Visa gift cards I use to pay for month-long DDI subscriptions here).

(Yeah, that’s right.  A Visa gift card is fine and dandy for buying one kind of thing from WotC, but is just not enough for buying another something from the same company.  Poor h4ters!  They’ve got so much misdirected vitriol aimed at WotC because of what they perceive as WotC’s game design mistakes.  Silly h4ters, it’s not the game design that your anger should be going towards.)

So okay.  Fine.  B&N rings me up at the register so that I’ve got the book on my Nook library that I can’t get to yet, but no matter, because now I’m off to get the checking card.  I go to Wal-Mart (several visits to more than one store and I have yet to read the damn book, dear WotC) and buy the card (making sure the card in question is a “checking card&rdquo. 

(Incidentally, the E-Book cost a little over $7.  Buying a Visa checking card costs $3 and the minimum you can put on the card is $20.  I’ve paid over four times the cost of this book and I still haven’t read the first word.  Tell me what’s wrong with this picture!)

The next time I’m at a computer able to hook up to the Internet, I enter this card as my so-called credit card.  Accepted!  Good!  Now to actually, finally download this book.

Yadda-yadda-yadda-blah-blah-blah-long-string-of-numbers-dot-epub.

What is an Epub file?  How do I open this file?  Holy crap on a cracker, what does it take to just be able to read the fricking book?!  So I go and download Firefox onto my laptop and then download the Firefox Epub Reader.  Can I read it now?  Please?!

“This file is protected by the Digital Rights Management (DRM) and unfortunately cannot be opened.”

What does this book want from me, blood?!  My first born son?!

So I go back to B&N (I could’ve bought this series twice over by now, given the number of times I’ve had to visit them for this book) with the laptop and they put something called the Nook App on my laptop and now I’m able to finally open and read the book.  Not doing it yet, of course; I’ve got to finish other book series before I start “Abyssal Plague”, and even then, “Shadowbane” was towards the end.

Nevertheless, WotC, given the headache I’ve had to go through to finally reach this point, I think I’m perfectly justified in saying that this book had better be worth it.  When I read this series, I better learn the Ultimate Question to the Ultimate Answer of Life, the Universe, and Everything.  When I get to the end of “Eye of the Chained God”, there better be swirling lights all around me as I’m lifted into the air, incoherently screaming that “I know everything!  I AM everything!”  Otherwise, just like in Highlander, heads will roll (that is, after I get a collection of Voodoo dolls and start collecting hairs).

Seriously, I’m at the point where I must actually give Paizo a shout-out at how much better they’ve performed in comparison with WotC.  Not talking about the game, here, just the simple fact that every one of their “Pathfinder Tales” novels are available as fricking books.

Yes!  You heard it here, folks.  A company releasing a book as a (say it with me, now) BOOK is worthy of praise.  One would think this would be a given, but hey, what do I know?

In fact, I have no idea how well these novels are written.  I already know that since they’re set in the humanocentric Inner Sea region of Golarion that I’m not likely to warm to them immediately.  Nevertheless, the simple fact that I didn’t have to dodge poison-tipped arrows, outrun rolling boulders, or fight off hordes of Nazis to get ahold of these books still puts them ahead.

WotC, ya’ll screwed up.

...

TLDR: WotC, ya'll screwed up. 

Aug 18, 2011 -- 11:50AM, Caolin wrote:

Aug 18, 2011 -- 10:47AM, Mr_Miscellany wrote:

Holy e-books from WotC Batman!

Did a search and found this D&D Novel eBooks archive. I had no idea WotC had a backlist of ebooks, much less one that was so extensive.

Note that e-books do not in fact save publishers "a ton of cost" relative to their up front cost to create the book. The cost to pay the author, pay the cover artist and any interior artist, to pay the editor(s)—including copyeditor and proofreader(s), marketing costs, etc...is far more.

Printing, binding and shipping product is expensive, but it amounts to (roughly) 10-20% of a given book's total production cost.

If a paper book costs, say, $5 to produce, print and ship, and if we follow the rule of doubling costs, then you're looking at a $10 retail price.

The e-book version should cost $4 (20% off of $5 is $4) to produce, with an e-book cost of $8.

As an aside, I don't know how anyone can conclude that WotC staff don't read these forums. I don't have a crystal ball that let's me see what they do and don't do at work, and I don't think anyone else does either.

EDIT: Here's a quick primer from Sean K. Reynolds (best Wizard's of the Coast game designer evar) on how sourcebooks are produced and the costs that go into them. Not exactly novels, but I think his commentary is on topic vis-a-vis this discussion.

The cost savings from print to eBook might not be a ton but it isn't insignificant either.  Let's not fool ourseves, they are definitely cheaper to make.  So why is WoTC setting the list price the same as the print media?  As Hawkins stated with his Stackpole link, most are coming to the agreement that $4.99 is about the sweet spot for eBook pricing and average length novel.  

But you also can't just look at the cost savings of the actual creation of the book.  The customer loses out on the option to resell that printed book at a used book store.  Actually, the whole concept of owning the book comes into question when it is in it's digital form.  I mean, Amazon can delete your whole catalog off of their Kindle if it suited them.  So I think it is a little unfair of WoTC (or any publisher) to ask their customers to accept less in return for the same amount of money.

Oh, and thanks for the Sean K. Reynolds link.  That was an interesting read.

That sort of **** is why I hate modern copyright in general. IMO it's just corporate power over how we share ideas and use our property and should be abolished and replaced by something like creative commons. It doesn't help that the anti-piracy crowd rely on lies, damn lies and fantastical statistics to defend it.

I'd like to see someone back up the statistic that the physical aspect of books only takes up 10-20% of publishing because I severely doubt it. It's true people are the most expensive resource, but people are involved in the physical production process as well. Please note too that paying an artist or writer is often a static cost. 

If artists are so costly than quite frankly I know a few that'd do better art for cheaper than 4e's slightly dodgy art.

See THIS POST by Nina Hess for the latest news on availability of e-books to internation customers.

I figure this is the best place to post this.  I am also from the Candlekeep board.  I have finally given in and gotten a tablet which can read kindle and kobo books. However, it also has Google Books, which in my opinion, is much better than the Kindle and Kobo apps available for Android.  But I noticed that there are no D&D novels available on Google Books.  Is this something that will be considered in the future? Is there any reason why Wizards has not made their product available on Google?

I was looking forward to buying Richard Bakers' Prince of Ravens, but after a few minutes of searching it turns out it's ebook only. What the? I don't care if you offer an ebook for those who are so inclined, but to not even offer a paper version? That's just silly. If you need to raise the cost by a few dollars then do so - I couldn't care less if a book is $7 or $10.

I do not, and will not ever, buy ebooks. I'm sure roughly half your customers feel the same way. Is offering an ebook only worth losing half your customer base? Apparently it is.

Congratulations WOTC, you just lost out on a customer. I own over fifty Forgotten Realms paperbacks and hardcovers, but I guess I'll have to find another setting (and publisher) to enjoy.

Wow. Talk about kicking your customer in the teeth.

Oct 21, 2012 -- 6:39PM, mkivtt wrote:

I was looking forward to buying Richard Bakers' Prince of Ravens, but after a few minutes of searching it turns out it's ebook only. What the? I don't care if you offer an ebook for those who are so inclined, but to not even offer a paper version? That's just silly. If you need to raise the cost by a few dollars then do so - I couldn't care less if a book is $7 or $10.

I do not, and will not ever, buy ebooks. I'm sure roughly half your customers feel the same way. Is offering an ebook only worth losing half your customer base? Apparently it is.

Congratulations WOTC, you just lost out on a customer. I own over fifty Forgotten Realms paperbacks and hardcovers, but I guess I'll have to find another setting (and publisher) to enjoy.

Wow. Talk about kicking your customer in the teeth.

When I started this thread, it wasn't in an effort to save print media.  I'm actually quite happy to get away from print.  It was generally an effort to get prices down to more reasonable levels....or at least to inform people of the over priced nature of eBooks.  But, I have come to terms with the current price point and I have relaized through research that the current pricing will fall once digital media saturates the market.  Someone will eventually start selling at a cheaper and cheaper prices to gain an advantage.

So with that all being said I wanted to address the segment of readers who want to blindly hold onto print.  I found out that print books (especially fantasy and sci-fi books) are practically worthless in the resale market.  After spending a few months trying to sell my 200+ book library (which I had no room to store anymore).  I eneded up putting a bunch of boxes of books out on the street corner.  The boxes sat there for a couple of days before all the books were taken.  I don't miss print one bit, not one.....period.  Reading on my Kindle Fire is such a better experience than I ever had with a print novel that I don't think I'll ever read a print novel again.

So IMO I see print media heading towards the realm of a niche market, much the same way vinyl has.  I would reccomend giving eBooks a chance if you already haven't.  Otherwise you will start finding it harder and harder to find that book you want in dead tree format.

 

Oct 21, 2012 -- 11:50PM, Caolin wrote:

I found out that print books (especially fantasy and sci-fi books) are practically worthless in the resale market.

Most of them are. A select few however get really expensive. I had to buy FR paperbacks at up to $80 to get certain long out of print novels.

At the moment I am researching if 'Murder in Halruaa' ever got a paperback release. So far everybody with a copy for sale only has the hardcover version, but one website listed the "UK paperback edition" but as out of stock. I would be willing to pay up to $100 for a paperback of 'Murder in Halruaa'. 

Oct 21, 2012 -- 11:50PM, Caolin wrote:

After spending a few months trying to sell my 200+ book library (which I had no room to store anymore).

I have the room for my 200+ FR books and I want them to grow to 300+ FR books, 400+ FR book and so on until they'll will an entire room.

A book I can't put on the shelf after reading it is drastically reduced in worth to me even before I start reading.

Oct 21, 2012 -- 11:58PM, Mirtek wrote:

 

Oct 21, 2012 -- 11:50PM, Caolin wrote:

I found out that print books (especially fantasy and sci-fi books) are practically worthless in the resale market.

Most of them are. A select few however get really expensive. I had to buy FR paperbacks at up to $80 to get certain long out of print novels.

At the moment I am researching if 'Murder in Halruaa' ever got a paperback release. So far everybody with a copy for sale only has the hardcover version, but one website listed the "UK paperback edition" but as out of stock. I would be willing to pay up to $100 for a paperback of 'Murder in Halruaa'. 

Oct 21, 2012 -- 11:50PM, Caolin wrote:

After spending a few months trying to sell my 200+ book library (which I had no room to store anymore).

I have the room for my 200+ FR books and I want them to grow to 300+ FR books, 400+ FR book and so on until they'll will an entire room.

A book I can't put on the shelf after reading it is drastically reduced in worth to me even before I start reading.

I used to have dreams of having a room lined with bookshelves filled with books so that my future children could enjoy them.  But then I bought my 10 yo nephew and my 14 yo niece a couple of books that I thought they would enjoy.  Both of them asked me if they could read them on their Kindles (which I didn't know they had just gotten).  Long story short, it hit me that in 10-20 years kids aren't goign to care about print media just like they don't care about CDs today.  So when i started looking at it in that light I realized that I actually hated the fact that those boxes of books that I kept in my closet were kind of worhtless to me.  I got out of them what I paid for and what I hoped to get out of them in the future was never going to come to pass.

So I saved up and got myself a Kindle Fire and the experience was so much more enjoyable that I don't think I'll ever buy another print book again.  That's my story about my conversion to eBook.  I'm not saying that everyone should ditch their love or print.  But there are far more people converting to eBook than there are stubornly hodling onto print.

Oct 22, 2012 -- 2:15PM, Caolin wrote:

I used to have dreams of having a room lined with bookshelves filled with books so that my future children could enjoy them.

I am more egoistic. I collect for myself, I don't care if my future heirs throw them on the trash once I am gone.

 

Oct 22, 2012 -- 2:15PM, Caolin wrote:

So I saved up and got myself a Kindle Fire and the experience was so much more enjoyable

I have a tablet but I would never read a book there. Nice enough for reading a short PDF like an issue of Dragon or Dungeon, but I would never read a 300 page novel on it. If I ever read an ebook than definately only on an e-paper display. Tablets are simply not made for this. Not even an ipad3 with it's high resolution

Oct 22, 2012 -- 2:56PM, Mirtek wrote:

Oct 22, 2012 -- 2:15PM, Caolin wrote:

I used to have dreams of having a room lined with bookshelves filled with books so that my future children could enjoy them.

I am more egoistic. I collect for myself, I don't care if my future heirs throw them on the trash once I am gone.

 

Oct 22, 2012 -- 2:15PM, Caolin wrote:

So I saved up and got myself a Kindle Fire and the experience was so much more enjoyable

I have a tablet but I would never read a book there. Nice enough for reading a short PDF like an issue of Dragon or Dungeon, but I would never read a 300 page novel on it. If I ever read an ebook than definately only on an e-paper display. Tablets are simply not made for this. Not even an ipad3 with it's high resolution

I haven't had 1 case of eye strain in the year that I've had my Kindle.  It helps that I can quickly adjust the brightness and that I can swap out the background color of the pages.  But I would never read a book on an iPad or similar size tablet.  They are just too big to handle comfortably.  The 7" screen is a perfect size.  I also like having the ability to quickly look up word defenitions as well as search the web for something in the book that i find interesting.  I can also do a search in other books in my library pretty quickly.  And lastly, I have always hated having to hold open a print book with two hands when I read.  I love being able to set my Kindle on my lap and only having to tap it to turn the page.

I can understand making FR e-books, but then making FR e-book only seems counter-intuitive to me. Regardless of the case one of the posters presented, there are people who want paper books too.

I want paper books. Not messing with ebooks.

The sea shift is going towards eBooks.  There is no way that anyone can fully support of eBooks and an old school print media distribution chain.  But the way I see it, print media will stay around in the form of Print on Demand.  No matter what anyone tries to argue, eBooks are far less costly to produce and maintain than print.  So eBooks will become the base of publishing and print media will turn into a niche market that still generates healthy, but much smaller, profits.

Much like Caolin I battled, in my heart, the change to ebooks and lost horribly. My Kindle Fire replaced my paper books collection years ago. The only thing that is difficult for ebooks to replicate is gift giving. My wife and I like to give books to one another at Christmas, for birthdays, anniversaries and even Mother's/Father's Days (we both read a great deal). Much like iTunes destroyed the fun of giving LPs/Cassettes/CDs ebooks have taken the fun out of gift giving. What I think would be a perfect fit would be a POD solution paired with a free ebook if you buy the POD version. That way you have something other than a printed email receipt to give your loved ones or friends as a gift but they still have the convenience of being able to read the book in their preferred format. *shrugs* Those posting that ebook is the way of the future I feel are sadly correct, print literature is going the way of betamax and while my heart is saddened by it in a nostalgic sense, my hands and eyes appreciate it (reading off my kindle or even my iphone is simply more convenient, especially compared to hardbacks) as does my obsessive need to read at every opportunity. I have read literally dozens of ebooks using only my iPhone/Kindle app while waiting in line or in a waiting room. I appreciate those that want to keep to only paper, I just fear you have already lost your war.

Since the book I wanted to purchase is ebook only, and I do not and will never own an e-reader, I downloaded a copy (for free), installed an ebook reader, and printed a paper copy. Golly, maybe there's a bright side to these ebooks after all. They are free! /sarcasm

Congratulations WOTC. Hope it was worth it to cut off everyone who doesn't want anything to do with ebooks.

Honestly I don't mind ebooks as long as they are printed in real books.  Some of the books I want to read are in e-book and I am not really  happy with the text and there is something about holding a book in with not so good binding in your hands.  Besides my kindle is pain to use.  If I want the hassle I would work fixing some the programs in my computer.  I would like to see the books in print in both versions.

I am NOT a fan of e-book format.  The only titles I will purchase in that format are the one's I have to.  And for the record, for every book that is restricted to it, I lose a degree of respect for WoTC.

As a 25 year reader and supporter of the franchise, I fear this direction.  I don't like the idea of electricity being a requirement for a good read... and as I aim to collect every book written, having several stuck on a drive and not on the bookshelf feels wrong.

Listen to the customer.  It seems people don't want the restriction.  The e-book works for many, and may even for myself some day, but taking away the options fells like a bad move.

Dec 8, 2012 -- 12:53PM, ChurchofShar wrote:

I am NOT a fan of e-book format.  The only titles I will purchase in that format are the one's I have to.  And for the record, for every book that is restricted to it, I lose a degree of respect for WoTC.

As a 25 year reader and supporter of the franchise, I fear this direction.  I don't like the idea of electricity being a requirement for a good read... and as I aim to collect every book written, having several stuck on a drive and not on the bookshelf feels wrong.

Listen to the customer.  It seems people don't want the restriction.  The e-book works for many, and may even for myself some day, but taking away the options fells like a bad move.

Print books are going to become just like vinyl records are today.  They are still available and there are some vinyl only enthusiast.  But the majority of music (like 99.99%) is sold digitally.  No complaints nor threats are going to stop eBooks from being the major way novels are sold.  But I doubt print will ever go away completely.  Your reading options will be severly restricted though.