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2 years ago ::
Aug 01, 2011 - 9:08PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2006
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Legends and Lore Modular Madnessby Mike Mearls The idea of an old school rules module paints a pretty good picture of how the module concept could work. I think the concept works best if the rules alterations that significantly affect character abilities come in bundles that point to a thematic style of play. Talk about this column here.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 01, 2011 - 9:09PM
#2
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This is the first article in which Mike sounds in any way practical. More specifically, in past articles of this line, Mike has been giving me the vibe of the misguided idealism that led to the worst excesses of 3E. He doesn't sound like that here.
Not sure how I feel about it.
...whatever
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2 years ago ::
Aug 01, 2011 - 10:08PM
#3
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I still don't like his ideas about creating an "old-school" game. Older editions were abandoned for a reason: RPG's evolve!
What's with people and their nostalgia? I just watched the 1992 Dracula last night. It seemed awesome back in the 90's, but now that I watch it again, the special effects and cheesy acting make me cringe.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 01, 2011 - 10:37PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Mar 14, 2009
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If we make feats and skills part of the core, we can then create a fairly simple rules module for old school D&D play. These rules not only would remove feats and skills, but they would also explicitly push the game toward DM rulings rather than hard and fast rules. This sort of rules module would use the same DM guidelines for adventure design. The idea would be that player skill—knowing where to look for traps, learning a monster’s weaknesses, making smart strategic decisions—takes the place of the mechanical advantages offered by skills and feats. In some ways, it’s like playing D&D in hard mode.
As long as the "old school" rules are not the basis for the game, there is no problem. Your basic rules need to be an easy to learn, easy to use in widely different situations, medium ground. "Less rules" is better as an option, for those who like to (or simply, can ) play that way, than as the main course of the product.
Also : insisting on guidelines, for the DM on how to modify the difficulty of a task, and how to provide bonuses for "rp" or "player thinking" can have the same results. If the DM is liberal with giving bonuses for good ideas or "out of the box thinking", he can also make rolls harder, encouraging players to "improvise" new ways sa they can gain a much needed "rp" bonus...
In some ways, you can think of this process as akin to character creation for the DM. The DM decides what kind of campaign he wants to run, in terms of tone, world elements and so forth, and then picks out options or rules modules that match that tone. The campaign setting becomes as much of a character in the rules as any NPC, location, or event.
Danger ! D&D is often used as a "changing teams" game. Players go from one table to aother, keeping their character, DM often have players come and go, etc. Not all teams/tables work this way, but it is not a rare thing. Having each DM or campaign work differently reduces the possibility of "cross playing" - each campaigns becomes more "closed", each character more "specialized" for one kind of campaig only. It can be frustrating for many players/DMs, and lead to big problems of balance, especially for the less experienced players and DMs. And in fact, can be commercially counterproductive. Take care of not making each campaign/table/whatever so "houseruled" by modules that exchanges between players/Dms/etc become too problematic.
A word of caution about randomness - I don't think random tables should be back in any way, especially if they try to correct power by rarity. It never worked as a way to balance, it just encourages players and DMs to cheat their rolls ( remember Stormbringer random class and races selection ? 1% chance to be an overpowered Melnibonean = 5 Melniboneans at the table. Even if it means rolling 200 characters and chosing the best one. Or, In AD&D : psionics were so rare that too many characters had them. Or let's roll characters untill we have one with good abilities).
Another remark about modularity : the thinner the granularity (the more specialized modules there are) the less customers will be interested in a given module, leading to many products with few sale prospects. It seems to encourage the monthly fee digital approach, rather than the publication of books. It can be a problem with some potential customers.
Remember Tunnel Seventeen !
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2 years ago ::
Aug 01, 2011 - 11:51PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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I'm not even sure what he means by 'old school rules module.'
To this old-schooler, 'module' means a pre-packaged adventure. In the past, when L&L referenced 'old school' it's been talking about the era of AD&D. AD&D was produced in big (for it's time) hard-bound books that weren't exactly united by the tightest themes nor were the rules at all modular.
I can't recall anything other than adventures bearing the label 'module' back in the day. Psionics, for instance, came in an 'Apendix' in the PH, and optional rules add-ons/changes were generally called 'variants' and apeared in the pages of The Dragon (or were dreamed up house rules that circulated as best they could through the pre-internet community).
Now, I have seen games do what he's talking about. Hero System, for instance, in it's '4e' (in 1989) included a few rules and guidelines that made it possible for the GM to go ahead and adjust the game to fit his vision. The GM would set Active Point limits, base points and disadvantages, how much certain disad and limitations were worth, what powers were available, and come up with package deals to represent races and even something akin to classes (more like PrCs, really). It was a cool innovation, at the time, giving the DM a broad toolkit to re-make the game to fit his campaign. But, it wasn't simple or easy, and it didn't exactly open the floodgates - some GMs went to the the trouble, most went with established defaults, and Hero System remained a niche system isolated by its steep learning curve.
The current push with D&D seems to be to make it simpler and more accessible. Modular isn't simple, even if you have a simple core to build upon. Because, deciding not to use a module, advisedly, requires understanding it almost as well as you'd need to /to/ use it.
Don't get me wrong, I /like/ games like that. I can handle a lot of complexity. But, D&D has never been a post-graduate kind of game, it's always enjoyed a broader, entry-level niche with a heaping helping of tradition and nostalgia. It's the kind of game people start with and come back to, not the kind they try out when they're feeling experimental.
Edit: Y'know, a context in which all this L&L stuff would make sense has finally occurred to me: If one were given the task: "re-design D&D to apeal to the maximum possible range of potential customers, given that there were no other RPGs to compete with it," the result might be something like what is being mulled around in L&L.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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2 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2011 - 12:27AM
#6
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If we make feats and skills part of the core, we can then create a fairly simple rules module for old school D&D play. These rules not only would remove feats and skills, but they would also explicitly push the game toward DM rulings rather than hard and fast rules. This sort of rules module would use the same DM guidelines for adventure design. The idea would be that player skill—knowing where to look for traps, learning a monster’s weaknesses, making smart strategic decisions—takes the place of the mechanical advantages offered by skills and feats. In some ways, it’s like playing D&D in hard mode.
I love how easily he puts out everything I want to see in a single paragraph. And the taunting... oh, the taunting. Perfect Mr. Mearls. Thank you. You want skills and feats? Pansy. We're playing hard mode. You want to solve the mystery, you figure it out. No namby pampy "skill challenges" here. Step up... if you dare.
"And why the simple mechanics? Two reasons: First, complex mechanics invariably channel and limit the imagination; second, my neurons have better things to do than calculate numbers and refer to charts all evening." -Over the Edge
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2 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2011 - 3:08AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Wow - The awesome player skills of con-man and dms best girl (best at predicting and cajoling and getting special favors from the all powerful dm) ...elevated and enshrined
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2 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2011 - 5:59AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2008
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If we make feats and skills part of the core, we can then create a fairly simple rules module for old school D&D play. These rules not only would remove feats and skills, but they would also explicitly push the game toward DM rulings rather than hard and fast rules. This sort of rules module would use the same DM guidelines for adventure design. The idea would be that player skill—knowing where to look for traps, learning a monster’s weaknesses, making smart strategic decisions—takes the place of the mechanical advantages offered by skills and feats. In some ways, it’s like playing D&D in hard mode.
I love how easily he puts out everything I want to see in a single paragraph. And the taunting... oh, the taunting. Perfect Mr. Mearls. Thank you. You want skills and feats? Pansy. We're playing hard mode. You want to solve the mystery, you figure it out. No namby pampy "skill challenges" here. Step up... if you dare.
Player meta-gaming skill is not hard mode. It's player meta-gaming skill.
Hard mode is something like 4th with no expertise or improved defense feats and not whining that combat takes more then 2 rounds...
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2 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2011 - 7:28AM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2008
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I am 100% opposed to leaving fast and hard rules in the hands of the DM. I like the hard and fast rules of 4th edition. I like the fact we can dungeon delve without using a DM. And when using a DM I like having some of the core combat mechanics out of his hands. Mike- DON'T RETURN 2nd EDITION CRAP INTO D&D. Leave it in the past. 2nd edition was the WORSE edition. If you are going to throw 4th under the bus to get back the grognards- at least bring 1st edition elements back- not the sloppy, watered down 2nd edition. I don't know how I feel about Mike calling the shots about 5th edition. So far, these Legend and Lore articles have left me afraid that elements that were removed when 4th was released are going to be brought back just to appease Paizo fans. A miniature-less basic rule system; DM calling the shots instead of concrete rules; hell, you might want vancian casting lists back- after all- they were in the 2nd/1st edition (and 3rd, but the horror of 3.5 nailing down rules on combat with miniatures) you love so much.
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2 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2011 - 8:03AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Jul 30, 2003
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All this talk in L&L sidesteps the idea of making a strong core mechanic that is both simple and versatile.
What disturbs me a bit (besides what I made comment on in the main page) is the idea that for entry level you need a "simple" method of X, and then for added complexity you need X+Y. That is a fallacy of design.
What the core needs is the capability of supporting X+Y+Z+ greek letters. The core mechanics need to be able to stand alone in versatility, and what I'm not seeing is how that will benefit in this hypothetical new edition.
Example: Fighter sub builds. (this is not a commetn on good or bad or whatever) The weapon master, brawling fighter, et al revolved around a core fighter mechanic. Mark Plus class feature. Had no problems. But then the slayer comes along. Not a bad thing, but it goes to show that the idea of a fighter that is not a defender is not supported in the core mechanic.
And imporvement in a new edition would be a fighter, and your 2 basic choices in the core could be "striker" or "defender." And for basic "powers" you could choose between "power strike" and "distracting strike" Then as complexity increases you can add feats onto this. more power options etc.
this is a small issue, but one that can greatly simplify design while increasing versatility and I'm not seeing an improvement over what we have yet.
Also, Archetypes/pregens included in the core material. say 8 Pregenerated characters at level 1, each occupying a page with a decent illustration for them. This way, for players that want to jump right into action they have a premade character. The classes can be designed with more choice off the get go w/o sacrificing the jump in and play atmosphere. Tons and tons of RPG's use this idea and I think for the player that just wants to play it works out just fine.
Maybe I'm alone here but that's where I'm coming from.
My Blog, mostly about D&D. I imagine that Majestic Moose plays a more "A team" type game than most of us. By that I mean he allows his players to make tanks out of a backyard playground set since the players have more "fun" that way.
Actually I much prefer The Losers.Spoiler:
Show
When I and my friends sit down we want a game of heroic fantasy. Rare is the moment when I have cried out in a video game or RPG "that's unrealistic." (Unless there is no jump button. Seriously makes me mad, single handedly ruined the N64 zelda series for me, but that's a digression of a digression.)
I mean, we play games with the force in galaxies far, far away, with supernatural horrors, dragons and demi-gods, alternate cosmologies, etc.
Reality and it's effects hold little sway to what makes a Heroic fantasy game fun IMO.
Just repeat after me:
You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You are not how much you've spent on WotC products. You are not whatever RPG you play. You are one of tens of thousands of people that spend money on a hobby. You will not always get what you want
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