As for nobody ever thinking of punishing CE for the times when those characters can behave in a Lawful or Neutral or even Good way to further their goals, it's an excellent point. In fact, the most troublesome PCs described by the OP are supposedly "unaligned" - most people in the real world would be unaligned, just trying to make their way while rocking the boat as little as possible, and you don't typically see mobs of ordinary people storming down the streets and setting fire to each others' houses, cutting each others' throats, and raping, looting, and pillaging as a normal port of everyday life. That is the lawless and evil behavior of villainous criminals, and when that becomes normal (in the case of riots and so on), it's a sign that something has gone terribly wrong, and unaligned, good, and lawful (even Lawful Evil) people tend to barricade the doors and call out the police and the militia, before things get bad enough that they band together to take the law into their own hands and defend their homes and families together and lynch troublemakers as a community, so that, after the threat is removed, they may try to restore some sense of stability and normality to their lives.
Good point. Bad timing. London says hello. (Maybe coincidental timing to prove the point.)
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Oh, wow! It took me a moment to realize what you were saying, Navar - I just ran to check the news to get the full story.
I've been so pre-occupied the last couple weeks, I haven't been keeping up with current events the way I used to, so I had no idea there was rioting over there. I wasn't trying to use current events to make a point, but I suppose that, in a way, that could help to illustrate one side or another of my point, for better or worse.
I was mainly picturing what might happen if a gang of lawless PCs with no regard for the safety, well-being, and property rights of others were to run rampant through my sleepy rural neighborhood near London, Kentucky... right or wrong, ordinary folks around here certainly wouldn't be shruggng and saying "it's cool, because they're not Lawful Good", and I can only imagine that London, UK is no different.
Trying to solve out-of-game problems (like cheating, bad attitudes, or poor sportsmanship) with in-game solutions will almost always result in failure, and will probably make matters worse.
Gun Safety Rule #5: Never point the gun at anything you don't intend to destroy. (Never introduce a character, PC, NPC, Villain, or fate of the world into even the possibility of a deadly combat or other dangerous situation, unless you are prepared to destroy it instantly and completely forever.)
Know your group's character sheets, and check them over carefully. You don't want surprises, but, more importantly, they are a gold mine of ideas!
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it." It's a problem if the players aren't having fun and it interferes with a DM's ability to run the game effectively; if it's not a problem, 'fixing' at best does little to help, and at worst causes problems that didn't exist before.
"Hulk Smash" characters are a bad match for open-ended exploration in crowds of civilians; get them out of civilization where they can break things and kill monsters in peace.
Success is not necessarily the same thing as killing an opponent. Failure is not necessarily the same thing as dying.
Failure is always an option. And it's a fine option, too, as long as failure is interesting, entertaining, and fun!
"Broken or not, unbalanced or not, if something seems to be preventing the game from being enjoyable, something has to give: either that thing, or other aspects of the game, or your idea of what's enjoyable." - Centauri
I'm fairly new to 2nd ed. I played one session 10+ years ago, and am planning to play another soonish. So while re-reading up on the priest, I thought it was interesting that they talk about following a pantheon or faith. I never saw a pantheon or faith as mandating a diety, but I'll admit I didn't read the priest spells section. I'm playing a fighter.
The book does repeatidly mention that the DM should invent a pantheon for priests otuside of what is listed later in the book. To extend that, many DMs are lazy and simply say "Sure that can be your pantheon." Thus players can choose to follow whatever pantheon they want. A pantheon without a diety is certainly not outside the realm of possibility.
Your tone in that post did come off rough. I was about to rip into you in my response when I saw your post count. Realizing you were newer to the forum, I eased off.
Once again I'm not trying to derail the discussion on this thread but I would like to clear this up.
2nd Edition Players Handbook Chapter 3 page 32
Priests - The priest is a believer and advocate of a god from a particular pantheon
Cleric - The most common type of priest is the cleric. The cleric maybe an adherent to any religion (though is the DM designs a specific mythoss, the clerics abilities and spells may be changed)
Page 33
The cleric receives his spells as insight directly from his deity, as a sign of and reward for his faith, so he must take care not to abuse his power lest it be taken away as punishment.
The 2ndEd PHB continues with a section on specialist priests titled "Priests of Specific Mythoi" This section details creating a specialist priest devoted to a specific mythos (meaning a specific god/faith/ethos) Specialist PriestShow
Specialists priests can have different spell choices and granted powers based on the deity or deities (i.e. religion and ethos). For example a priest of Thor might be granted major access to the Weather, Elemental Water and Air Spheres, and be granted the power to incite berserker rage. Specialist priests are optional in 2nd Edition but pretty much everyone I gamed with that ran clerics chose to run a specialist priest.
2nd Edition Players Handbook Chapter 7 Page 84
Priest Spells - To obtain his spells, a priest must be faithful to the cause of his deity. ... A priest's spell selection is limited by his level and by the different spheres of spells. Within the major spheres of his deity, a priest can use any spell of a given level when he is able to cast spells of that level.
The choice of spells is also impacted by the alignment of the cleric. Cleric's AlignmentShow
For example only clerics with an evil alignemnt can cast the reverse of curative spells. Also, evil clerics don't turn undead but have the ability to command them instead. In my homebrew campaign I had a house rule that prevented neutral clerics from turning or commanding undead, instead I gave them a Hide from Undead ability that worked like a invsibility to undead spell but with the same roll as turning and effecting the same number.
As far as lazy DMs not creating their own pantheon are concerned, I never played with a DM that didn't have at least 1 pantheon defined. In fact most had several based on race and origin of the PC. If you ran Dragonlance, Forgotten Realms, or Greyhawk the work was done for you. Legends and Lore outlined several and had rules for creating your own. So, it was fairly easy to create a very well defined pantheon that you could use as "flavor" for the divine classes in your campaign. Custom PantheonShow
In my homebrew campaign I always used a Tolkien inspired pantheon. I used the Vala as the deities, gave them basic alignments and roles, then divided up the spheres accordingly. Aule, for example, is lawful good and has major access to All, Elemental Earth, Creation, Combat, Healing, Guardian, Protection, and Necromantic; minor access to Divination, Summoning, and Sun; No access to Animal, Astral, Charm, Plant, and Weather. I really just used the Forgotten Realms pantheon and just made some minor adjustments to produce the Vala Pantheon.
I hope this clears up the relationship between pantheons and 2nd Edition Clerics and Druids. I also hope you do continue to play in 2nd Edition games. I still play 2nd Edition, in fact I still play 1st Edition AD&D from time to time. I really love the AD&D system as it was the system I first learned to role play. I also played paladium and rifts, star frontiers, and Vampire: The masquerade, but it was AD&D that I stuck with and continued to play.
Edited to add formatting and to hide the examples from my campaign for those not interested.
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!”
I also hope you do continue to play in 2nd Edition games. I still play 2nd Edition, in fact I still play 1st Edition AD&D from time to time. I really love the AD&D system as it was the system I first learned to role play. I also played paladium and rifts, star frontiers, and Vampire: The masquerade, but it was AD&D that I stuck with and continued to play.
ADD is neat, thats for sure. Ill definatley finish this campaign as long as it lasts. Will I run a game in the future? Propably not.
Lazy DMs. I meant it as "The DM will have their default setting, with its pantheon, but if someone says 'I want something different' the DM will probably let them make it themselves". So yeah you have the normal pantheon, but if an enterprising player wants to create their own I would think most DMs would let them.
5e comments and thoughts all in one place. Check it out to provide feedback, mock, or steal ideas. http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28835423/Krusks_5e_Design_Goals?sdb=1
ADD is neat, thats for sure. Ill definatley finish this campaign as long as it lasts. Will I run a game in the future? Propably not.
Lazy DMs. I meant it as "The DM will have their default setting, with its pantheon, but if someone says 'I want something different' the DM will probably let them make it themselves". So yeah you have the normal pantheon, but if an enterprising player wants to create their own I would think most DMs would let them.
Most DMs I played with were pretty flexible and often let me run clerics that worshiped the Tolkien Vala as the pantheon. Sometimes they would make adjustments to the pantheon so it fit in better with their campaign.
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!”
I was mainly picturing what might happen if a gang of lawless PCs with no regard for the safety, well-being, and property rights of others were to run rampant through my sleepy rural neighborhood near London, Kentucky...
They'd only run rampant about halfway through. Then the surviving rampagers would either run *away* or lie down peacefully and wait for the cops to arrive.
and I can only imagine that London, UK is no different.
The folks in London, UK have been protected from that option because if they were permitted any effective defense from thugs willing to beat them to death, someone might get hurt.
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
Have you played since your last post? What was the resolution? How goes the campaign? Please keep me posted on the outcome of the adventure and the direction your players take in the campaign. Also, you spoke of the current PCs meeting up with their higher level counterparts from 2nd edition. Is that still in the cards?
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!”
Have you played since your last post? What was the resolution? How goes the campaign? Please keep me posted on the outcome of the adventure and the direction your players take in the campaign. Also, you spoke of the current PCs meeting up with their higher level counterparts from 2nd edition. Is that still in the cards?
Hi all been on Holiday for 2 weeks since we last played, Luckily enough my part of merry old England did not succumb to the rioting and looting,
Thanks ysimons! A quest in hell to find the spirit of the evil vilian they wanted alive to question! a stroke of genius!
Anyway we will play on tues, If I give a bit of background about my players maybe it makes it easier to understand, my players have been playing since the 80's with me and 1st edition, we progressed on to 2nd and had long breaks while i went to uni etc....... We reformed a group a few years ago and the players have always had the same characters from the eighties which they love.............. we played intensely for quite a few years but by the time we reached the upper teens 20th level mark i realised that AD&d was pretty much broken, characters had so too many options, armour classes were so high, so many magic items that it took a n age to play and make the game fun, we seemed to get bogged gdown in endeless game mechanics and arguments about the system,,, if you have ever tried to work out the cubic feet opf a fireball explding in a 10 ft wide corridor and the blow back you get a fraction of what was happening....... It just bacame a headache so i stopped it..... well played 4th ed with 2 of my old players from scratch 1st level til 20th and had a great time...... We were still based around the same campaign world of my homebrew making so as a bit of fun i allowed one of my players to meet up as an npc then start to play his 13th level 2nd edition ranger as a 4th ed, he just had a vorpal sword and not much else just standard 4th stuff but i gave him a backstory of becoming an alcoholic when he lost his honour and apaqrt from his sword he had lost everything, a neat way to get rid of a million magic items, the player loved it so when we meet up as a fivesome again with all my old players and me my players wanted to play d&d again but not ad&d i much prefer 4th ed for ease of play, well 2 of the plasyers wanted to play their old characters as 4th ed conversions which i said would be impossible for newbies to play 4th ed at 20th level so we agreed to play from 1st level the idfeathat the 4th ed characters would find clues and go on a quest to find their old characters and finally when they are experienced enough ( My idea was they meet uop when they are a similar level so they are experienced enough to handle the characters) at the moment they are at the 8th level so a long way to go to around 18th level..................
The problems well i've played with my players for 25 + years so i really know their playing style and nuances. and also though they had plenty time to organise it only one player has ever dmed..... the other 3 and the dming player much prefer to play and would rather not play at all if it meany anotrher person dmed..... 2 of them have not played for years but would rather waitr for me to organise it............
So in 2nd edition days my players mostly played lawful good characters aqnd stuck within alignment, Ill break my 4 players down to Powergamer 1 - does not care much for role playing just wants to WIN! that means he conmpetes with the other players to have the best character, constantly wants to beat the DM which is pretty easy as i just make it very tough and his character aklways tries to go after the big boss kind of views the battles in d&d as a kind of chess. Problems happen as he wants to win so much i conmstant have to check his interpretation of the rules, Ive constantly have to double check his powrs as he always looking for a loophole in the rules so he can dominate the game. gets tiresome when he is trying to find flaws and stretch the rules currently playing unaligned monk Powergamer 2 also likes haviong powerful characters, good at roleplaying but views d&d as a way to also have an extension of himself as all poweful an omnipotent, does not like to get things wrong and ignores clues vital evidence etc if it gets in the way of him being right. Most eager to have his old character as a 4th edition update as it was the most poweful character. currently lawful good ranger Mr Hack and slash..... funny roleplater brings a real laugh to the table, used to play lawful good cleric and ranger but kept getting into troble switched to a chaotic neutral barbarian and had a ball! currently playing a n unaligned barnaerian, not really a problem but always getting the party in trouble with fights etc The role player. best role player loves to be the diplomatic one......... bad tactcian however and always making tactical errors and gets annoyed blaming dice etc..........
Ok before i used to award extra experience for good role playing just small anmount. mr hack and slash used to come up with brilliant battle cries paladin " surrender and i grant you your life" barbarian " Surrender and i grant you a quick death!" cool have 50 xp! so players stuck to alignments and roleplayed a lot, powegamer 1 complained because other people woukld get more xp than him, so ok i said extra xp would go in group pot, however this hasd meant now people don't roleplay except for mr hack and slash and role player when he has to tery to smooth over the calamities the party has caused, Players have chosen unaligned i guess sio they diont have any moral compunctions or conscious and do exactly as they please........
So as I've been playing i can see where its heading as i've stopped games before if players start becoming argumentative.......... players want to win, kill monsters get treassure etc but d&d is more than that, sometimes players perfect plans get thrawted especially if the powergamers come up with plan but don't realise some other factor which comes back to bite them example Ashen crown is undead heavy but powergamer 2 does not pick turn undead ability and has taken ages with pointers to realise rasdiant damage. role player and hack and slash are pretty easy going and don't take the adventures as pwersonal they just love to role play.... and chop up enemies... But i can see the fun is going to get sucked out as alignment goes out the window, players just hack their way thru without taking prisoners or finding clues.......... insult npc's....... and as a dm i too want fun ..........but ass i've explained the players have gone down a dark path....... the lawful good powers that be won't hire the characters on a mystic quest to find their lawful good characters????? why should they? they are lawbreaking thugs also its giving the players the green light hey we are unaligned when actually they are playing evil, and then trhe players are annoyed when npc's dont want to help them or want to arrest them.....
Anyway i've spoken to my players and they have had a think and we'll know on tuesday
Thanks for explaining the background of your gaming group. I certainly have a clearer understanding of your dilemma now. The adventure in hell sounds intriguing. I played in a few adventures in the Lower Planes including one called "A Paladin in Hell". Personally I never cared much for them but if your group would enjoy it go for it. I always perfered Ravenloft adventures to the lower planes. I suppose in 4e clerics aren't at such a disadvantage in the lower planes as they were in 2nd Ed.
I used a lot of the same techniques as you when I DMed. I would award extra XP for good role playing. I always rewarded Lawful Good PCs with extra XP when they stuck to thier alignement in situations were it was less than optimal to do so. I also would divy up Group XP in situations where there was a good team effort and the players were collaborating to solve tough problems, especially when they collectively were thinking outside the box. Extra XP would be awarded for ingenuity and original ideas as well. I would withhold XP when players, especially non-divine classes, were not playing their alignment. I would always tell them how much XP they would have received if they had stuck with their alignemnt. I rarely had to do that with the group I gamed with regularly. Another technique I used was to allow PCs to "Cash in" XP for prof slots. Once Players Option: Skills and Powers came out I would award Character Points for good role playing. These could be used to buy and improve profs and skills.
I have to politely disagree with you about AD&D being broken (I'm not trying to start any "my edition can beat up your edition" argument here). I realize it could be a bit cumbersome to keep track of all the Magic Items, Henchmen, followers, spells, etc. However, I DMed several 20th+ level campaigns and my group always seemed to enjoy them. In fact, one of my friends exclusively played 18+ level characters. Dungeon Masters Option: High Level Campaigns has a lot of great options for managing Epic Level campaigns and keeping the players challenged. In fact your example of the Fireball in the corridor was covered as well as many other great rules for area effect based spells and magic items. Also, there were lots of supplements and Dragon magazine articles that really gave you some powerful tools as a DM to play the game at greater than 30th level. The Battlesystem rules were pretty handy for dealing with all those armies of followers and strongholds. Once we got into high level I would like to throw in a lot of Spelljammer adventures as well as planar adventure hooks. Also, I would house rule most of the clunky or complex game mechanics at that level. In fact, often times at that level there really was no need for dice at all. Prof and Skill checks were pretty much a formality as were saving throws. By that level it was more a true role playing game than a roll playing game. Creative Ideas and grand agendas were the focus. All those cool magic items became more flavor and theme than representing gobs of bonuses. Although I have to admit by 20th level it was tiresome to take on major bad guys in combat and I would usually start hinting at shelving the high level guys for a while and rolling up new 1st levels. But that was more my preference as a DM than the playres being bored.
Please keep me posted especially if you do the adventure in hell. I'm truely interested in how this plays out.
--Edit---
Correction - The rules for collateral damage for spells are in the Players Options: Spells and Magic not in High Level Campaigns. There are a few interesting rules in the Complete Wizards Handbook as well. Fireballs expanding to conform to and fill a confined space that have "almost no pressure" are a bit of a head scratcher but, generally, if you used 33 10x10x10 foot cubes it was fairly easy to eyeball if you were using a hex or square mat. Not exact science but niether is magic
“Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!”
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