Community

 
Dungeons & Dra.. Homebrew Campaigns Tough Minions - Giving Minions a Simple HP System
Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 4 of 8  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 8 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Tough Minions - Giving Minions a Simple HP System
2 years ago  ::  Aug 01, 2011 - 4:50PM #31
malcapricornis
Date Joined: Jun 15, 2008
Posts: 1,791
Don't you want the controller > then the others for minion bustification?
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 01, 2011 - 5:04PM #32
BlackKnight1239
Date Joined: Sep 22, 2006
Posts: 1,311

Aug 1, 2011 -- 4:50PM, malcapricornis wrote:

Don't you want the controller > then the others for minion bustification?




Sure, regularlly. But every so often you have to introduce mechanics that throw a player's perception of the game off, making them face different challenges. I'd like to see what a party would do when their minion buster isnt so great against these minions.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 02, 2011 - 10:09AM #33
Nathrazeem
Date Joined: Jul 18, 2011
Posts: 10

Unfortunatly i have a very small player base, two at this time, who both have chosen striker characters. So my options for encounters are kind of forced towards minions. Things get very boring when theres only 2 creatures in each fight. While this has made encounter design tough I’ve also had to come up with other ways to fill out encounters and utilize minions.


Now while this has been annoying at the start I’ve come up with a few tricks to make things a little more interesting.


Firstly. When I first started running minions my players got a strong sense on who they were by me simply saying. “ok you hit its dead” I had to adapt and have since made players roll damage for each attack. Now while this seems like a common sense stand point and many would say, well there gonna know their minions when they deal 8 damage and it dies. That brings me to my second point.


I use one of two specialized templates for some monsters to round out battles and make things a little more dangerous. First is the Underling. You can replace 3 underlings for every 1 standard monster. They have 30% of the hit points of a standard monster but deal 25% more damage. This makes them abit more lethal, but easier to drop. Also fills out the roles and allows for me to throw in a few more enemies instead of just the 2 standards or a bunch of minions.


Ive also taken to using the lackey template. Basically the lackey deals damage like a normal monster but has a 2 hit damage threshold. All attacks deal 1 damage regardless of what it is and a critical hit kills the lackey outright. Now looking at some of the other posts I might opt to let dailys kill them outright too. Perhaps even encounters.


My other point to fact is I use 6 minions for every 1 standard instead of the normal 4. It doesn’t make things much more lethal but keeps the players in the feel of being in a situation that might not bode too well.


Some of the other ideas on this thread about minions are defiantly worth looking into and I might incorporate a few them in my upcoming games.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2011 - 2:51AM #34
Style75
Date Joined: Oct 25, 2009
Posts: 1,957

Aug 1, 2011 -- 7:44AM, sigfile wrote:



A mechanic like this tears a big block of utility out of many AOE abilities; you'd be hard-fought to find a swordmage (sword burst) or wizard (beguiling strands) capable of downing a minion in a single hit.   That's a bummer. 

 




I have to respectfully disagree with this. The AOE abilities are still greatly appreciated because they allow the PC the ability to bloody large groups of 2-hit minions. This is huge because it means those minions are threatened with death by defenders marks, OA's, multi-round zones and auras. You may not have killed the minion outright, but you've denied them a lot of tactical options and made the other players powers more effective.

Also, the way I play with 2-hit minions is an encounter or daily power always kills on one hit. At higher levels this means you have a lot of options to insta-kill minions with AOE's, but it forces you to devote resources to it. If you want to jack up the threat for Epic tier, you can only insta-kill on dailies, encounters bloody, and at-wills have some sort of resist damage or saving throw.

My experience with this system of 2-hit minions is that adds a LOT more tactics to the game without burdening it with any more book keeping. My players love it and complain when I give them fights without minions.

Want to know more about the history of D&D, especially how to play older editions of the game? Check out Crazy Monkey's "Tour through the editions":

http://community.wizards.com/crazymonkey/go/forum/view/133793/225799/Asylum_Play-by-Post

The current edition is BECMI, the most popular form of Basic D&D and the adventure is the classic Red Box quest to kill Bargle the evil magic user. Check it out, learn about the games roots, and enjoy the story as it unfolds.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2011 - 3:15AM #35
Xguild
Date Joined: Apr 22, 2001
Posts: 1,290
What I have found the issues with minions is both as a player and as a GM is that they are easily idenfiable in a tactical situation and simply knowing something is a minion considerably reduces them as a threat.  Players look at the tokens and know, ya these skeletons numbered one through ten are probobly minions and they respond with appropriate tactics to counter them (aka area powers, conserving encounters and dailies, focusing their strikers on tougher oponnets..etc..).


What I have found that works really well is to not offer any clear identifiers to the players.  For example if I want to describe a scene of 10 goblins of which maybe 3 are real monsters and the other 7 are minions I will try to blend their appearences in the description so that they are not easy to identify.  I also will intentionally mix up counters, blending minion and non-minions using the same type of tokens with different numbers and track them behind the scene.  That way they can't visually differentiate between minions and non-minions on the battle map forcing them to kind of plan their strategy in a bit more realisitc way, aka treating everyting as a threat. 

Not knowing which tokens/monsters are minions changes the tactical situation a great deal and makes minions far more effective in combat.    
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2011 - 3:36AM #36
Rothe
Date Joined: Jun 19, 2008
Posts: 2,049

Aug 3, 2011 -- 3:15AM, Xguild wrote:

What I have found the issues with minions is both as a player and as a GM is that they are easily idenfiable in a tactical situation and simply knowing something is a minion considerably reduces them as a threat.  Players look at the tokens and know, ya these skeletons numbered one through ten are probobly minions and they respond with appropriate tactics to counter them (aka area powers, conserving encounters and dailies, focusing their strikers on tougher oponnets..etc..).


What I have found that works really well is to not offer any clear identifiers to the players.  For example if I want to describe a scene of 10 goblins of which maybe 3 are real monsters and the other 7 are minions I will try to blend their appearences in the description so that they are not easy to identify.  I also will intentionally mix up counters, blending minion and non-minions using the same type of tokens with different numbers and track them behind the scene.  That way they can't visually differentiate between minions and non-minions on the battle map forcing them to kind of plan their strategy in a bit more realisitc way, aka treating everyting as a threat. 

Not knowing which tokens/monsters are minions changes the tactical situation a great deal and makes minions far more effective in combat.    


My opinion is completely opposite.

As a player, I would hate using a daily on a minion by accident. And even then I would just tell the players that some are minions (as opposed to "you can't tell if any are minions"). Basically, it means I might hide one stronger enemy in a group of minions, but I would not try to get the players to waste high damage powers on minions.

Minions don't have to be effective just for the sake of doing damage. The game is not about the DM being out to get the PC's by maximizing his benefit from the XP budget.
If you feel that an encounter is too easy with X minions, just put in more and still grant the same XP - nobody will care.

As for the alternative minions, there are lots of good ideas here.

For the resist X minions I would consider the rule that any damage still "wounds" them. The reason is that otherwise powers like Cleave and Cloud of daggers are pretty useless. They are designed to hurt minions, and if they can't do that, why pick them.

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2011 - 3:46AM #37
frothsof
Date Joined: Jun 4, 2010
Posts: 10,487
totally hate multi-wound minions. i dont mind them exploding or having damage buffs, but forcing the players to spam at wills on minions that take more than one hit is, among other things, boring as hell for all parties. just use a ton of them
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2011 - 4:19AM #38
Seeker95
  • Reasonably Disagreeable
Date Joined: Oct 24, 2001
Posts: 9,933

Aug 3, 2011 -- 2:51AM, Style75 wrote:

The AOE abilities are still greatly appreciated because they allow the PC the ability to bloody large groups of 2-hit minions. This is huge because it means those minions are threatened with death by:

  • defenders marks,
  • OA's,
  • multi-round zones
  • and auras.

You may not have killed the minion outright, but you've denied them a lot of tactical options and made the other players powers more effective.


I re-formatted to bring this benefit to the fore.

Very good summary of how 2-hit-minions do not gimp AOE powers.


Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)

A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2011 - 4:41AM #39
Seeker95
  • Reasonably Disagreeable
Date Joined: Oct 24, 2001
Posts: 9,933

Aug 3, 2011 -- 3:46AM, frothsof wrote:

totally hate multi-wound minions. i don't mind them exploding or having damage buffs, but forcing the players to spam at wills on minions that take more than one hit is, among other things, boring as hell for all parties. just use a ton of them


In the final encounter of last night's session, my five players encountered a gang of sixteen bandits that were intent on recovering a certain item the PCs had. I tried out the two-hit minion approach. Is was beautiful!

I was able to run the entire encounter with no paperwork or off-map tracking! To maintain the perceived threat of the encounter, I would, every now and then, ask the player to repeat the amount of damage they caused, then feign a quick mental calculation before placing the bloodied token or removing the figure from the battle.

  • The shifter rogue was bloodied in one round. He shifted (an every-encounter objective he has set), Low-Slashed and Piercing-Strike'd one enemy dead, and proceeded to work his magic each round thereafter, either bloodying or killing an enemy with each attack.
  • The dwarf paladin managed to mark six enemies in round two with his Call of Challenge, effectively protecting the rogue for the rest of the encounter.
  • The wizard, who usually hangs back and attacks from a distance, found himself surrounded by four bandits who entered in round two. He fled with six hit points, but not before hitting with an AOE that bloodied four of the bandits.
  • The pacifist cleric pulled off Hymn of Resurgence in the second round, making the assault that much easier for everyone.
  • The half-orc monk showed restraint, turning the killing blow of the last enemy into a knockout punch instead. They won the battle and had a prisoner to interrogate.

None of the players realized they were two-hit minions. Even now, the next morning, they do not know. Fun was had by all.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion:
  • Three Basic Rules (p 11)
  • Power Types and Usage (p 54)
  • Skills (p178-179)
  • Feats (p 192)
  • Rest and Recovery (p 263)
  • All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)

A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Aug 03, 2011 - 4:42AM #40
frothsof
Date Joined: Jun 4, 2010
Posts: 10,487
well im glad it worked for you, parties ive been realized it immediately so it was at-will spam and yawning. if it happened again id actually flee
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 4 of 8  •  Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 8 Next
Jump Menu:
 
Dungeons & Dra.. Homebrew Campaigns Tough Minions - Giving Minions a Simple HP System
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing