First, I'm trying to find if there has been an official ruling on even Mind Spike & Prescient Retaliation. By sheer RAW, the change of Mind Spike to an ImmInt seems to do nothing cause the hit is still a hit, as where the intended purpose of the feat is to make the "action technically invalid" due to the interrupt
But I know that because the rules here are not solid (based on intention, not actual wording) if I add Lure of Iron to the mix, my DM is going to call a giant BS on "rules interpretations" and throw this combo out the window.
With Lure of Iron and Prescient Retaliation, I would have the ability to push the foe away, at which point assuming they don't have reach, would "invalidate the damage" (otherwise what's the point of having it as ImmInt rather than ImmRea). This would have a final result negating their ability to deal damage to the foe very easily (likely every time), while still dealing the damage from the mind spike back on the foe.
But if my DM looks at this combo, he'd likely make it so the foe's attack still damaged, despite being shifted away, and taking the MS damage before being able to deal the damage to my ally... cause that is RAW interpretation (only requirement for "dmg" step is "hit", and the "hit" isn't interrupted)
Your interpretation is completely correct (even down to the head-screatching 'how does prescient retaliation work').
If your DM thinks it's overpowered and wants to houserule it, that's his perogative. Personally, I'd point out that very few monsters in epic DON'T have reach, and even if they don't, you can still only negate a max of 2 attacks a round with Rapid Mind Spike. But by the actual rules, you are correct, and it can negate an attack if it slides them out of reach.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
If your DM thinks it's overpowered and wants to houserule it.
Our DM has never houseruled that I can think of. The problem here is that RAW doesn't exactly exist, so the DM has to make a interpretation based on insufficient information. This is not houseruling, since it isn't overruling any known known RAW rule.
Our rules interpretation requires 2 assumptions 1) it's what the skill intended to so 2) the feat is essentially useless if the process of actually interrupting damage did nothing
now - to argue against these rules (1) isn't RAW (2) wouldn't be the first time I've seen practically useless feats and skills So a DM can rule against, without houseruling and believing they are enforcing RAW as best as possible given the insufficient rules provided
Unless someone has a reference to a true RAW explanation that proves one way or the other. Simply being the accepted intended use != RAW. Does someone have said reference?
Our DM has never houseruled that I can think of. The problem here is that RAW doesn't exactly exist, so the DM has to make a interpretation based on insufficient information. This is not houseruling, since it isn't overruling any known known RAW rule.
Our rules interpretation requires 2 assumptions 1) it's what the skill intended to so 2) the feat is essentially useless if the process of actually interrupting damage did nothing
now - to argue against these rules (1) isn't RAW (2) wouldn't be the first time I've seen practically useless feats and skills So a DM can rule against, without houseruling and believing they are enforcing RAW as best as possible given the insufficient rules provided
Unless someone has a reference to a true RAW explanation that proves one way or the other. Simply being the accepted intended use != RAW. Does someone have said reference?
See, you're actually wrong; this is pure RAW.
The real confusion is based on the fact that Mind Spike needs to know how much damage the triggering attack did to properly resolve. But as far as the slide invalidating the attack? That is 100% RAW. Check out any of the rules on interrupts; if an interrupt invalidates the triggering action, the triggering action is lost. (You seem to already know this, so I'm confused what you're confused on).
Mind Spike will do 0 damage when used in this fashion, because the triggering attack did 0 damage. But it will invalidate the attack.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
But as far as the slide invalidating the attack? That is 100% RAW. Check out any of the rules on interrupts; if an interrupt invalidates the triggering action, the triggering action is lost. (You seem to already know this, so I'm confused what you're confused on).
Mind Spike will do 0 damage when used in this fashion, because the triggering attack did 0 damage. But it will invalidate the attack.
See that doesn't even make any sense. If invalidating the attack by interrupting between hit and dmg, then how is it even possible to kill a foe with mind spike interrupt?
Take the following 2 cases (first where the foe dies, then when lure of iron interrupts) 1) Foe attacks Mind Spike interrupts foe dies ("attack interrupted") 2) Foe attacks Mind Spike interrupts & slides foe foe is out of range ("attack interrupted")
In the first case, the damage needs to be dealt out by mind spike to actually perform the interrupt, but in the 2nd case, you're saying that damage is zero because of the interrupt. Based on your logic of "attack is invalidated, therefore mind spike does 0 damage" it then essentially becomes impossible to kill a foe using mind spike as an interrupt. If the foe were to die by MS, attack is interrupted and he deals no damage for the attack, thus MS is 0 and cannot kill the foe to begin with.
So your explanation doesn't work as it creates a contradiction or an impossible case that goes back and forth infinitely.
So back to what is RAW - The fact that the foe is no longer in range, or dead, as far as RAW rules go, does not actually interrupt the damage being dealt. We have only a single source for the resolution of an attack: (PHB 269) Step 1 - choose the attack used - Completed Step 2 - Choose targets - Completed Step 3 - Make attack roll - Completed Step 4 - Compare attack roll to target's Defence - hit - completed Step 5 - Deal Damage - Interrupted Interrupt - Mind spike deal damage (kill or slide foe away) Step 5 - Deal Damage -> The only requirement to deal damage is a successful hit. As such, interrupting the damage, there is nothing left to actually invalidate. - Note the interrupt was *after* the hit. The hit has occurred and was not invalidated, and the damage comes automatically.
The issue is where the trigger actually is. You technically do not interrupt the action, but partway through an action.
In the first case, the damage needs to be dealt out by mind spike to actually perform the interrupt, but in the 2nd case, you're saying that damage is zero because of the interrupt. Based on your logic of "attack is invalidated, therefore mind spike does 0 damage" it then essentially becomes impossible to kill a foe using mind spike as an interrupt. If the foe were to die by MS, attack is interrupted and he deals no damage for the attack, thus MS is 0 and cannot kill the foe to begin with.
Luckily the foe is already dead and so it doesn't matter.
The Mind Spike deals damage equal to how much the attack would have done had it hit. Simple.
The Mind Spike deals damage equal to how much the attack would have done had it hit. Simple.
The problem is that the wording doesn't say that. The wording says "damage equal to the damage that its attack dealt to your ally". Of course "damage equal to the damage that its attack would have dealt your ally" is the intended functionality, but from then on, it's all dependent on how far you take the interpretation of "intended".
So if you can kill a foe with an ImmInt Mind Spike, why would sliding the foe away negate the damage you deal to them?
Now from our tables' perspective, this discussion would have ended ages ago with the DM forcing a decision likely in favour of the foe to keep things moving (which I will not contest at the table). I am arguing what my DM is likely to argue on the fly, and the fact that no one has yet provided anything conclusive indicates that my DM will not accept any of this. This whole thing needs some errata bigtime.
The Mind Spike deals damage equal to how much the attack would have done had it hit. Simple.
The problem is that the wording doesn't say that. The wording says "damage equal to the damage that its attack dealt to your ally". Of course "damage equal to the damage that its attack would have dealt your ally" is the intended functionality, but from then on, it's all dependent on how far you take the interpretation of "intended".
So...
If you kill him, he deals no damage, and therefor takes no damage, and therefor doesn't die, and therefor deals damage, which means he takes damage, which means he dies, which means he deals no damage, which means he takes no damage, which means he doesn't die, which means he deals damage....
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
