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2 years ago ::
Jul 23, 2011 - 5:47PM
#81
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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Huh... My 4E is a classically heroic narrative that's laden with beer and pretzels. ... Am I doing it wrong? 
No. And I didn't say anything that would suggest that you are. I said that warhammer 3e and 4e D&D will be more/less appealing depending on what sort of games you happen to prefer. It does not surprise me that some elements of warhammer turn Salla off; a lot of the elements are taste specific, and I would expect them to turn off players if they are not into that sort of game. I happen to love both games. I happen to like warhammer a little more, because personally, subjectivly, I like playing classically heroic/beer and pretzle environment games a little less. That doesn't mean that such games are empirically of less value. It just means they don't match my primary tastes when it comes to RPGs. However, despite that fact, I still enjoy classically heroic games and beer and pretzel environment games. Indeed, sometimes I am more in the mood for such games than the type of games that currently match my primary tastes. Of course, all of that says more about me than about the objective value of either type of game...
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2 years ago ::
Jul 23, 2011 - 6:20PM
#82
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Date Joined:
Jul 12, 2006
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Yeah, my gamemaster stopped running 2e wfrp when I would make a new character after every major injury. I am not playing an archer that lost a hand, sorry. Not my idea of fun. The fact that 3e wfrp required you to buy multiple copies to play more than 4 people turned me off so my group has never even tried it (there are 8 of us).
I am glad though that for the people who prefer a grittier game have the option. Would I stop playing D&D if that became the norm? probably. If there are game systems that do things well then let them to it. I like my D&D the higher end of fantasy.
The horrible truth - "Their new marketing strategy (Evergreen Essentials) pretty much requires that anything new that sees print refer back almost exclusively to Essentials." Tony Vargas
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2 years ago ::
Jul 23, 2011 - 6:33PM
#83
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Date Joined:
Sep 20, 2004
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I don't know how 2e worked, but you have to play pretty risky to lose your hand in 3e. You have to take a serious critical wound, probably take a second such wound, and then keep fighting instead of running. Also, you can receive fake appendages designed to alleviate some of the penalties for specific tasks. Last session one of my players turned and ran after only a single critical wound and two temporary insanities (but he had a TON of stress/fatigue). But yea, gritty games are not for everyone...
...yea, you can run a warhammer 3e game with more than 4 people without having to buy extra products. But, you would probably have to buy extra products to accommodate 8 people. That is, unless you were willing to take the time to DIY a few cards via a scanner, some cardboard, a gluestick, and an exacto knife, which I really don't find to be a big deal; especially seeing as I have to put that effort into any D&D character anyway.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 23, 2011 - 8:53PM
#84
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2002
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But, you would probably have to buy extra products to accommodate 8 people. That is, unless you were willing to take the time to DIY a few cards via a scanner, some cardboard, a gluestick, and an exacto knife, which I really don't find to be a big deal; especially seeing as I have to put that effort into any D&D character anyway.
O_o I've never put that kind of effort into a D&D character. The most I put in for power cards is 3x5 index cards with a red, green, or black marker spot at the upper right.
As to the original post I'm one of those people that likes all of 4e. Sure there's some classes I'll likely never play (I'm not a caster player, the archetypes just don't appeal to me) but there aren't any I hate. I'll admit at first I had a knee-jerk reaction of hatred/disapproval towards Essentials but I've warmed up to them since then. 4e is easily my favorite edition of D&D so far, to the extent that if I can't get a 4e game together, I play other RPGs entirely rather than go back to the days of 3.x or earlier.
Yes, the latest book/release that you don't like is a blatant attempt by Wizards of the Coast to make money off the fanbase. They all are. That's kinda the point of the Free Enterprise system, companies are in it to make money... Spoiler:
Show
You can't! I tried... and the next night masked men came into my house and beat me until I burned up my ranger character sheet and rolled a scout. They told me... if I ever thought of making a non-essential character that they would kill mitsy..... OH GOD THEY ARE COMING BACK AND ARE FORCING ME TO BUY HEROES OF SHADOWS! SOMEONE STOP THEM PLEASE!
Your DM is your friend. He's not trying to screw with you, or dick you around. Play your character how your character would act. Accept that your character won't always be able to do what he's best at, but also know that as a goddamn HERO, he's gonna try to do his best at what he can do.
Roleplay your goddamn character, make the decisions he would make, and roll appropriately. Everything will be fine.
But filling a post with vitriol, hate-filled comments, like "these people should be fired", swearing at us or other ambiguous members of the company - there really is no reason for that. Please share your feedback respectfully, and consider how you would share your ideas if this were a face to face conversation between real people, not faceless names on a screen.
If you see me posting in a thread about editions or Essentials (that isn't simply a rules thread or similar) remind me that I'm trying to stay away from them. (My blood pressure will thank us both.)
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2 years ago ::
Jul 23, 2011 - 9:48PM
#85
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I played 2e years ago while I was in school, and later the Army. After I got out, I pretty much didn't play until less then a year ago, so I missed all of 3e and went straight to 4e. When it first came out, I hated the thought behind it. Now, I've accepted that they had some good ideas.
4e has some thing I like and some things I don't. I dislike the MMO feel probably more then anything. When my buddy (who I played 2e with in Korea years ago) calls monsters "mobs" I want to punt a kitten. I dislike the need for all roles to be filled...when I played 2e, we just played what we wanted and suckered one guy into playing a cleric and we did fine. Now you need to worry about defenders, controllers, leaders, etc.
I REALLY hate all the races. I yearn for the good ol days of humans, elves (and half-eves), dwarves, halflings and gnome jokes. I feel like I should be running the dragonborn and the tiefling in my party through, they are clearly monsters! At least the Drow I am playing is a pointy ear, and I played drow way back in 2e also (before I had even read the Drizzt books, *sigh*) it just sucks that what was a strange, exciting races like elves and dwarves are "too boring" and people need to be dopplegangers and insect men. Tails? Horns? BAH, adventurers need not such things!
You come to the boards and see people talking about DPR the same way WoW players talk about DPS. It doesn't feel like D&D anymore. Maybe it's the system or maybe its because I got old...I don't know.
As for what I do like, 4e is fun. It's not the same fun I had years ago, but fun never the less. I like the neat encounter powers and even dailies. I like most of the classes. I really like that there are no "universal dump stats" now...all stats have a purpose beyond the RP aspect. I like that any race can be any class, and alignment is less limiting. I always thought it was stupid that a Paladin of Bane had to be lawful good...what sense did that make? And why wouldn't Bane have paladins at all? Seems to me the evil guys would want their champions too.
I like how they changed healing. At first I hated the idea, but having seen it in action, it was a great change. Clerics actually look *gasp* fun now, and my party didnt have to trick anyone into playing one. He actually WANTED to, and after seeing it in action, heck I'd play one too. I like the new magic system. I like that a 1st level wizard has more to do in an encounter then throw his one magic missle then call it a day, because you sure aren't going to risk those d4 hps by smacking that orc with your D6 staff, and they can take a hit without dying. I like that everyone levels together, rather then everyone having different exp needs. I love the fact you can make a hybrid character without the old multiclass system from 2e (that was legitimately evil).
So I guess, 4e isn't the devil I originally thought it would be. It's a fun game. It's a SMART game (mostly) that works. It's probably a better game then my beloved 2e, although that pains me to say. Just don't get me started on what they did to my Forgotten Realms with 4e. That makes me want to punt the kittens again.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 23, 2011 - 10:13PM
#86
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- I love its core game system (every dice pool is an action in which you add a certain number of blue dice equal to the stat which the action is based on, yellow dice based on your training in the skill related to the action, white dice for luck based on the narrative, black dice for ill omen based on the narrative, and purple dice based on the challenge rating of the action you are trying to perform).
This aspect alone inspires gobs of narrative interpretation and is really wonderful.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:25AM
#87
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When my buddy (who I played 2e with in Korea years ago) calls monsters "mobs" I want to punt a kitten.
LOL
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2 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2011 - 12:28AM
#88
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compared to what came before 4th ed? the only time i look back is to see how far we've come, and that's a good thing.
A thousand times this.
I haven't really played any Essentials characters as a player. I've ran them as a DM, and I've found them to be actually good to use in that regard. (Before you crucify me for running Mary Sue DMPCs or whatever, it was because a player was missing.)
I play DMPCs. Nothing wrong with it. They're just as likely to die, and they don't have data that the other players lack.
It's fun.
They don't as much face time as my chars do when someone else DMs, but I'm cool with that, because as DM, I get plenty of face time. :P
One major thing I would change about essentials: I'd rather have encounter power options than daily power options, if I got to choose between the two. Give me dailies that are prechosen, basically workng as class features, so long as I get to choose my encounter powers.
More sex and gender equality and racial equality shouldn't even be an argument--it should simply be an assumption for any RPG that wants to stay relevant in the 21st century.
I could say anything in D&D is silly though, because it's a silly game and we are silly people.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2011 - 2:29AM
#89
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Date Joined:
Sep 26, 2001
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• I prefer its math light/image heavy dice resolution mechanic.
The recent Legend&Lore article talks about establishing a simpler “Core” that uses more narrative and less math to resolve challenges. The system would still use d20 but minimize the math that the Core gamers need to track.
The 3e and 4e dice resolution systems are basically identical, and require little more than addition. I don't see a need to go any lighter on the math than that (I suppose it's /possible/, there's always Phill Pholio's 'coin toss dungeon'). 'The Math' that people keep talking about is more on the design side, something players only worry about when they're second-guessing the design.
• I like that it has lots of non-combat resolution actions available. The game feels like a lot more of it was dedicated towards non-combat resolution mechanics than 4e's very combat heavy approach.
The Core D&D would simply use ability checks to resolve all skill checks. But to it, a separate Skill Module can add. This would add a separate section to handle noncombat challenges in more detail. The advantage with the D&D module is, players can add on options to develop their noncombat prowess without sacrificing their combat prowess. There's non-combat, and there's non-adventuring.
• I like how it lets you build different types of characters, and choose what area of the game you wish to excel at. Not every character must choose to be good at combat, characters do not have a fixed number of actions (read: powers), talents (read: feats), or ability advances they must gain as they level. Rather, you choose where you want to advance at the expense of not advancing in other areas; you choose how you want your character to excel.
Not sure this is a good thing, because characters who specialize in noncombat options would simply be underpowered in an adventure that emphasized combat. And visa versa. But you say it works out balanced after all? That kind of character-growth freedom is really nice. It's harder to balance and easier to powergame, but with a strong DM and responsible players, I love systems that give high degrees of freedom that way, like Hero.
• I like how despite that it is still fairly balanced. In fact, I would say it is roughly as balanced as 4e (which is to say overpowered characters can be created, but for the most part things are pretty even in terms of potential, and every character ends up being able to contribute meaningfully).
How does it balance out, when having to choose between combat and noncombat options seems so dependent on the narrative of the adventure? It seems inherently “situational”. 'Balance' just doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. It's one of the things I've learned from the Essentials schism. To some, 'balance' is a matter of tight mechanical restrictions and trade-offs that minimize both intentional and unintentional abuse of the system. To some, 'balance' means everyone at there table has generally had fun, most of the time.
However. D&D has no system to track permanent injuries, that simply remain until magically (or medically) restored. Albeit certain diseases seem to do something like this, there is no mechanic for physical injuries. The possibility of cutting off an arm with a sword, realistically poses longterm effects. Maybe an optional D&D injury system could trigger the possibility of impairment whenever suffering a critical hit? The disease mechanic could be adapted to that. Even 'permanent' injuries could eventually be cured by magic. Past eds had no general rules for lopping off limbs, for instance, but a few magic items or monsters could do it - but, they did have a general rule (spell) for growing them back.
Love 4e? Concerned about its future? Join the Old Guard of 4e"You want The Tooth? You can't handle The Tooth!" - Dahlver-Nar. "If magic is unrestrained in the campaign, D&D quickly degenerates into a weird wizard show where players get bored quickly" - E. Gary Gygax
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2 years ago ::
Jul 24, 2011 - 6:59AM
#90
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I have only been playing for about 3 weeks. Combat seems simpler and smoother and flows better.
Least it seems that way compared to teh AD&D I used to play as a kid.
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