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2 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2011 - 5:41AM
#401
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Date Joined:
Mar 15, 2001
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I cry a little bit every time I see a single target wizard or sorcerer, unless there's a damn good reason why they're built that way.
On that, I think we can all agree.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2011 - 7:09AM
#402
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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Are multi-target powers like Arc Lightning and Lightning Bolt also lumped into the AoE category? Granted, you won't always have the optimal number of targets available, but I would expect it would occur much more regularly than a burst or blast.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2011 - 7:39AM
#403
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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Are multi-target powers like Arc Lightning and Lightning Bolt also lumped into the AoE category? Granted, you won't always have the optimal number of targets available, but I would expect it would occur much more regularly than a burst or blast.
you gotta think that arc lightning is practically a straight up 2x mod onto the DPR. it's got a range of 20, and it's 2 targets. very few combats in my experience happen at ranges greater than 20, and as the saying goes "solos aren't"
lightning bolt is not quite as good, it being only range 10, but it's pretty solid stuff.
they are at least friendly.
you can't do the regular burst/blast table with them, as what are you going to rate it as? a burst 20 on arc lightning? clearly, that's out of whack, as it would be some ludicrous modifier not on the chart.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2011 - 7:58AM
#404
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Are multi-target powers like Arc Lightning and Lightning Bolt also lumped into the AoE category? Granted, you won't always have the optimal number of targets available, but I would expect it would occur much more regularly than a burst or blast.
They would need their own chart.
Probably...
1.8 for 2 target's @ 20.
2.6 for 3 target's @ 20.
3.4 for 4 target's @ 20.
4.2 for 5 target's @ 20.
5 for 6 target's @ 20. (same as a friendly burst).
or something...
You need to factor not only the amount of creatures you hit, but also the fact that focus fire > spread out damage.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2011 - 8:21AM
#405
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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It is somewhat pedantic, but I would think that range might factor in there a bit. 5 target range 20 vs 5 target range 5 (not that there is a power like that, I believe)
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2 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2011 - 9:08AM
#406
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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True, although mixing powers like Far Reaching (level 6 Order Adept theme power) and the Far Spell feat...now you could have ranges rivaling those in 1E and 2E 
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2 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2011 - 2:12PM
#407
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Date Joined:
Mar 15, 2001
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It is somewhat pedantic, but I would think that range might factor in there a bit. 5 target range 20 vs 5 target range 5 (not that there is a power like that, I believe)
Yes and No. 3 targets, range 10 is the equivalent of saying Close Burst 10. CB10 is effectively the entire battlefield in everything outside of ship-to-ship and aerial combat scenarios. Changing it to CB20 doesnt really accomplish much. OTOH, shrinking from CB10 to CB5 puts the idea of getting 3 targets in jeopardy and CB3 makes it difficult to make that assumption. CB1 and 2 and you're being wildly optimistic to get three targets.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2011 - 2:39PM
#408
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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It is somewhat pedantic, but I would think that range might factor in there a bit. 5 target range 20 vs 5 target range 5 (not that there is a power like that, I believe)
Yes and No. 3 targets, range 10 is the equivalent of saying Close Burst 10. CB10 is effectively the entire battlefield in everything outside of ship-to-ship and aerial combat scenarios. Changing it to CB20 doesnt really accomplish much. OTOH, shrinking from CB10 to CB5 puts the idea of getting 3 targets in jeopardy and CB3 makes it difficult to make that assumption. CB1 and 2 and you're being wildly optimistic to get three targets.
I largely agree, although the last two combats we did in my regular game would have been impacted by the ranged 10 -> range 20 change, and neither were ship to ship or aerial. That having been said, I think they were a little odd
my feeling is that:
- where range < (number of targets)^2, full value is not applied (75%?)
- where range < (number of targets), even less value is applied(50%?)
- where range is <= (number of targets), full value is applied (Mellored's very sensible table)
where you start losing some damage off the high number of targets ones because there are not often that many meaningful (i.e. non-minion) targets.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2011 - 3:29PM
#409
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Date Joined:
Aug 24, 2007
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What makes range 10+ often irrelevant is that you can (usually) move before attacking. If there's enemy artillery at 15 squares, then you can simply walk 5 squares in their direction and fire off a range-10 attack.
Yes, I'm aware this doesn't always work. Still, I've been playing 4E since it came out, and I think I can count on one hand the combats I've seen where range 10 was insufficient to hit the desired target(s).
Range 5 does have targeting issues, though. Although I have seen up to eight enemies caught in an enlarged Fire Shroud, that was more of a corner case.
Anecdotally, I'd say you can get an average of 1.5 creatures in a burst-1, and 2.5 in a burst-2. In both cases, it doesn't matter if the burst is friendly or not; this is simply a matter of group tactics. Larger unfriendly bursts do not reliably catch more enemies unless you're willing to hit your friends; larger friendly bursts get 3.5 creatures (burst 3) and 4.5 (burst 4), if only because there generally aren't more than five non-minion enemies on the battlefield.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 26, 2011 - 7:09PM
#410
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I cry a little bit every time I see a single target wizard or sorcerer, unless there's a damn good reason why they're built that way.
On that, I think we can all agree.
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"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
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