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Jul 21, 2011 -- 5:54PM, VampyresThrenody wrote:

Needle's Poison: While not optimal, I'm a fan of ongoing damage for an assassin build. This said, if you are going to be inflicting an effect you should make this into a power. As it is worded right now, it is a little more confusing. Do you add the ongoing damage (save ends) as a free action? No action? Does it occur when you use your shroud feature on a target? When you hit with an attack? When you invoke shrouds? Also, you phrased it once per turn. Can I use this on an off turn if I attack with an immediate interrupt? Can I use it on their turn regardless?

Wow, I didn't even realize how ambiguously I'd worded that. I did purposely phrase it as once per turn and it is meant as a free no action. And don't forget that the ongoing damage stacks with any other ongoing damage. So subsequent hits go something like 5, 10, 15, etc. I think that keeps it more in line with the other guilds. I could give that a power form, I guess.

Death's whisper: I'm not too big a fan of ranged weapons on the assassin. It would require completely new powers and doesn't mesh well with anything they currently have. Btw, do ki focuses work with ranged weapons? (I don't see why they wouldn't but I'm not sure).

I think ranged weapons on assassins are perfectly fine. Remember not every assassin can or wants to be up close and personal about anything. Plenty of assassinations happen with the assassin far away, looking down the crosshairs of a crossbow/gun. Also, yes ki focuses work with ranged weapons. If they don't my Executioner is gonna be really pissed.

Something I just noticed with both Death's whisper and Twilight hunter. The damage bonuses they get can be applied PER attack. This is easily too good/fiddly. An assassin with such a feature may want to dip into ranger or barbarian for some high multi-attack goodness. I'd specify that these bonuses are only 1/round or 1/turn if you want them to be triggerable with immediate interrupts. Otherwise this allows a Death's Whisper to get an additioanl +16 damage PER ATTACK at epic. A smart player would be able to abuse this on a nova with 2 multi-attack powers plus at least one minor attack. You must be hidden to get the bonus, but as with the ranger's Dark Strider, there are many ways of getting hidden after making an attack roll. Or perhaps I'm over-reacting and there really aren't that many ways.

There are a few things I'm gonna say here. A) I purposely made it that way. I want to give the assassin incentive to actually stack the shrouds. And I can't do that with every power.
B) You have to stack the shrouds, which means spending four rounds without your extra striker damage going off. C)This is easily abusable, but all that means is that I have to cut down on the amount of attacks per power. I could also limit it to only on your turn too. D) I remember specifically stating that the guild benefits only apply to assassin and assassin paragon path powers. Maybe not the paragon path powers, but at least assassin powers, so no multiclass shenanigans.

Shadow Flurry: Since this is the guild at-will, this is too good IMO. There's really no reason to pick -any- other guild if this is available as a guild power. Twin strike is generally considered one of, if not the, best at-will (for damage) in the game. It's a core reason why the DPR of a ranger can get so high. Shadow flurry has the requirement that it only hits one target (which any non-sorcerer striker is doing anyway in order to wipe a target off the map asap, which is their job) and does more damage than twin strike does. So, it can't be used to murder 2 minions, but that's not really the primary job of an assassin anyway. Leave that to the classes with burst/blast at-wills. There's really no reason to use any other at-will.

I knew Shadow Flurry was gonna get called out, I just knew it, what with all the people crying for nerfing of twin strike. Here's the catch with it though. You still have to hit with the both attacks, and you absolutely have to hit with the first attack or you don't get any damage. I think that brings it in line. If that doesn't then I'll just get rid of the dex mod damage and call it a day. Or scrap the whole guild and do something with crit range. The idea behind it is that the first hit sets the target up for the second hit. Something like that.

Shadow Venom: Wow the word shadow appears alot..its really hard to come up with unique names for powers, isn't it? I sympathize! I like this power. It has a benefit works well with your new guild ideas and with a concept that generally doesn't work well for strikers (ongoing damage) but is flavorful enough that I feel it should be attempted.

I agree, originality is hard, especially when I'm trying to keep to the more shadowy side of the assassin that WotC has created. Which instantly makes the word shadow come to mind.

Dusk fangs: multi-attacks are good for strikers. Keep in mind though that multi-attacking is what the ranger does very well. The assassin is going to feel very much like a ranger if it has/picks nothing but multi-attack powers. Unfortunatley, balance-wise, this is where strikers need to go. Finding unique ways of getting those multi-attacks (minors/immediates/something else) is what can make a class stand out from the ranger.

I know, I'm not liking how particularly rangery my attacks are feeling right now. Then again, I've only gone one level, so I'll try to add in more minor action attacks and off turn attacks.

Blood strike: I like it. The problem with ongoing damage is it should always be calculated to do about as much, or just very slightly less than a typical power would do if you include the first bout of ongoing damage. You can't rely on it getting off more than once, and even if it does, its delayed damage. Delayed damage is not as useful for a team. That said, this being necrotic really restricts it. Since alot of your other powers are cold and necrotic, I'd reccomend doing the same here.

Yeah, necrotic does limit it. Mind you, the ongoing damage isn't necrotic, just the weapon damage. I've used necrotic and cold on every encounter power so far, just trying to mix things up. A Needle's Poison assassin can probably rely on getting ongoing damage off more than once, at least more than other classes can.

Shadow Barrage: This power is creative. If anything, this actually makes me like the idea of a Death Whisper.

Thank you.

Shadow Rift: Nice name. Good job avoiding just necrotic damage. Too many things are immune/resist [see above]. I'm not too keen on area attacks for the assassin since, for me, its a class that focuses on a single target. That said, having one burst encounter isn't a bad idea if no one else has one.

Yeah, I was kinda strapped for ideas, and it occured to me that I was leaving implement users in the dust, at least as much as you can with a ki focus user.

Note: Your powers are competing with one of the few levels where the assassin already has a decent/good power--Shadow Darts. Keep that in mind when creating more powers. I'd focus on the levels where the assassin powers are truly DREADFUL.

I know, they had a few good options at level 1. Or more, horrible powers with 1 or 2 shining gems to pick from.

All of these are competing with Targeted in Death (or whatever the name of the power is with the Effect: place two shrouds one is). With that in mind, many of the powers you made here don't have much of a reason to get picked.

Yeah, targeted for death is really a fantastic power, but I'm also gonna say that these powers are meant to replace current ones, not exactly go along side them. But whatever works, ya know.

Shadow Dance: Weak damage to three targets and the possibility of immobolizing one target under very specific conditions. This is really weak power wise, but again I'm just not a fan of attacking more than one t arget as a striker.

Just because it says "up to 3 creatures" does not mean that you can't just target one. Keep that in mind, and I think that the power increases drastically. I wouldn't exactly call 3[W] + 3(dex mod) + 3(enhancement, weapon focus, Twilight Hunter benefit, etc.) weak. Also, I was fishing for a status effect there. Immobilized seemed like one that wasn't entirely overpowered when combined with all that damage.

Black Venom: A solid amount of W damage, targetting a non-AC defense and a small debuff. Not bad. The effect is a nice add-on as well. The only thing I dislike with this power is that it is Implement and not a melee/weapon power. Unless you are starting off an encounter hidden with four shrouds, you'll likely take at least 2-3 rounds to build up the required shrouds to use this power (yes, not required, but no one is going to waste their effect on a daily!). Assassin's are primarily melee classes so would likely need to disengage from an enemy just to use this daily.

Wow, I must have been REALLY tired when I wrote that power up, because it shouldn't be dealing weapon damage, as it's an implement attack. Then again, I could just change it, either to melee weapon, or melee 1. And who says that assassins are primarily melee? Now that I think about it, that's one of the things that's wrong with the assassin. No ranged options. I think that it's high time D&D got a sniper.

Whisper in the Dark: Control! Blind! Perfect. The save ends is good as well and stealthy. I like this power. You know, this ranged-death whisper assassin may grow on me if you keep making good powers for it.

Again, thank you. Also, the name of the power is a not-so-subtle reference to one of my favorite songs.

Dark flourish: I don't know what to say on this one. I like Immediate interrupts, I like that it uses a monster's attack on itself. I feel that its swingy with damage, but that's what happens when you rely on the enemy hurting itself. It's much better against newer monsters that use the higher damage values.

I wasn't sure what to think of this power when I came up with it either. I imagined an assassin catching an arrow midflight, vanishing, then reappearing behind the one who shot the arrow and stabbing it with the arrow. I might bump it up to 2[W] damage, but if you think about it, it's already negating damage to you, dealing that to your enemy instead, dealing a bit more damage, and to top it all off, it's an immediate interrupt. Very competetive, I would say.

Jul 22, 2011 -- 8:08AM, VampyresThrenody wrote:

Venom strike looks good. The only question I have is what you mean by stacking. If they have 5 ongoing damage from a power, do they now take 10 ongoing damage or do they take 5 ongoing and 5 ongoing regardless of the type of damage that it deals? I know you already explained it as stacking with the 10-ongoing save ends to 15, etc, ending with one save, but I figured I'd point out the ambiguity of the feature power.

Ok, this is how it works. If you use a power that deals 5 ongoing damage, and you use venom strike, that power now deals 10 ongoing damage. The idea behind it is that you're poisoning their essence, or soul, or something equally nasty. It stacks like that because that gives you incentive to attack the same target. The reason one save ends all is because I know first hand just how nasty having to make three separate saves to save against 15 ongoing damage is.

Random thought, it may be easier to give Needle's Poison something like a +stat to damage against targets taking ongoing damage than to fiddle with the at-will ongoing damage feature. This way they'd rely on attacks to give out ongoing damage. Perhaps make an at-will power that does stat mod ongoing damage.

I'm trying to avoid ability mod damage as a class feature. It works great for some classes, but I don't picture it working well for my assassin. Not sure why.

Regarding multi-attacks, I think that the problem lies in just making it a simple multiple attack. What if we change it up? How about the first attack is implement based and then the second is a melee weapon attack? For example, assassin throws a dagger of cold damage and then teleports b ehind the enemy, gets CA for the attack, and does a melee strike.

That's not a bad idea. Well, except that the marauder ranger does practically the same thing, just with a charge instead of a teleport. Still, I could probably work something like that in.

Make its multi-attacks do something that the ranger doesn't. That doesn't really help the twilight hunter guild at all, but I don't really know how to make it feel unique without making the powers do more than the ranger multi-attacks do.

The problem here is that the ranger already does just about any multi-attack you can think of. I mean, you came up with the implement attack, teleport, and stab, and the ranger already does something just like that.

On guild training: You're right, assassin's do need more incentives to build shrouds. I do wonder if the incentive is too strong for a death whisper though. Getting +16 on all attacks may be better than getting +12d6 on one attack. I suppose the main issue here is whether or not the Death whisper actually gets any multi-attacks. If they don't, then they're only getting that +8 once or twice a round (immediate interrupts or a minor attack). This promotes the following play: Use at-wills, build up shrouds, NOVA with as many encounters as you have. If you have encounters left, save them, use them again next round, invoke shrouds. You know..I think this is -exactly- the play style that should be promoted with the assassin.

Yeah, I think I really nailed it with the Death's Whisper. I'm gonna try to limit the multi-attacks that they get for the reason of that massive static bonus. The real issue here is that now I need to give them a reason to ACTUALLY invoke the shrouds. Also, you still get the bonus on the same attack that you invoke the shrouds on. I'm just not sure how to word it.

I also think that Shadow Armor is too much. The assassin already gets its HP moved up to regular striker (needed), but the addition to ac/reflex is a big boost. The rogue doesn't get any sort of defensive boost and it is in the same boat as the assassin - Dex-based, melee, leather user. The assassin's AC and reflex should  be fine with it using Dex primarily and having access to leather armor. Keep in mind that for the cost of 2 feats, the assassin gets Shadow Walk too.

Yeah, but that sucks up your multiclass feat. Remember that the executioner gets light shield proficiency or two weapon defense for free. I think that I just need to limit it in some way. I'll think of something.

Twilight hunter uses two weapons. This means they'll likely have some multi-attack powers. However, their extra feature boosts damage based on shrouds. I'd run with this idea also and make powers for them that focus on having many shrouds/adding more shrouds/getting a boost for invoking the shrouds with this power.

Yeah, what I'm going for here is some sort of Artemis Entreri style build with the Twilight Hunter. If you don't know who Artemis Entreri is, he's an assassin with fighting skills equal to Drizzt Do'Urden. If you don't know who Drizzt Do'Urden is, you absolutely need to read the series. Legend of Drizzt. Check it out.

Needle's poison uses ongoing damage. If you keep the Venom feature then having more powers that add ongoing damage makes it a little more confusing (which is okay, its an advanced class). You can also do things such as:

Opportunistic Strike	Assassin Attack 13
[Insert flavor text here ...]
Encounter Shadow, Implement, Poison
Immediate Interrupt - Melee, touch Trigger: An adjacent enemy succeeds on a saving throw against an ongoing damage effect.
Target:Triggering Creature
Attack:Dex vs. Ref
[hit]: 3d8 + dexterity damage and the target fails its save against the ongoing poison. Needle's Poison: The target takes a penalty to saving throws against ongoing damage equal to your constitution modifier until the end of its next turn.

That is an excellent idea! I will be sure to use that!

Shadow Dance: You're right, I mis-read that. It may actually be too good if its three attacks! Its better than the premier level 1 ranger daily which just does 2[w] twice. But at the same time, its only one step up from rain of blows which has three attacks and is a level 3 encounter, so its probably fine. I suppose the reason I don't like it is that it feels very good but quite bland, unlike many other assassin powers (which are flavorful but awful) or some of the other powers you've made which are both flavorful and good.

It's 2[W] + str mod, actually, but yeah. It is awfully hard to come up with multi-attack powers that don't make you go, "Hmm, this feels like the ranger..."

Black venom: Yeah..keep it as an implement. The assassin could use some more. I don't think it' be much of a sniper-y power though. Likely it'd be used from directly in front of the target for most builds unless you're a death-whisper or otherwise deciding to focus on implement powers. Maybe if there were good implement powers an assassin could actually do that! The only problem with it is that they would benefit best from either Night Stalker (which, suddenly becomes useful if you're targetting that one ranged guy in the back with your own ranged powers) or needle's poison.

I'm trying to keep the Needle's Poison powers versatile between melee and range, because, as of now, it's the only guild that I've made that doesn't restrict weapon use. 

She also had something called "Dancing Hornet style." Let me link the text real quick:
"When you have a weapon with the off-hand property in each hand,  all your weapon attacks deal additional damage equal to 1[W] (off-hand  weapon) + ability modifier damage associated with your guild training.  No other bonuses apply to this additional damage. Example: a power that  deals 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage would now deal 1[W] + 1[W]  (off-hand weapon) + Dexterity modifier + Charisma or Constitution  modifier damage. You may give up this additional damage to reroll the  attack, but you must use the new result, even if it is lower."

I think I posted on that thread. While that is a fantastic idea, I don't want to just poach it. And I don't want to limit my assassin to off-hand weapons. Light blades maybe, but not off-hand.

I think this is an interesting way of adding in an extra "attack" without actually providing another attack. Although I do personally like the twilight hunter's guild training bonus, it doesn't really scream "I use two weapons" so much as its powers do.

Most classes that dual wield don't have class features that really scream "I use two weapons" either. It's mostly the powers that do that.

I must be overwhelming you with feedback at this point, sorry. I had a comment on the changes to Assassin's shroud that I noticed now. When a target dies, the assassin moves all shrouds to a new target as a free action. I think that the benefits of Death's whisper/twilight hunter should still keep a reason to invoke shrouds on a target before it dies. For example, the feat they made for the assassin requires at least 2 shrouds  built up and only moves 2 of those to a target within 5 squares. I think this is a little too weak, imo. However, requiring 2 shrouds and then only moving 2 to a target within a larger distance, say 10 or 20 squares would be  better than getting to keep all of their shrouds. The main reason is that extra damage feature of +8/+12/+16 is so big that I'd almost say why ever bother to invoke if you lose that bonus?

Don't worry about overwhelming me, I love all this feedback. Gives me something to do. Maybe I'll scale it down to just moving up to two shrouds upon target death, but I think I'll keep the rest the same.

Another comment, I'm not sure if it should require a feat or not to do something like this. The rogue absolutely NEEDS combat advantage to get his bonus off. This is typically gained through both powers or, more frequently and later on, through feats like Wintertouched or Deadly Draw. I see these are requirements to make your damage bonuses "reliable" and "consistent." With that in mind, it may make sense to require the same from the assassin. It is still a "tax" feat since I can't imagine any assassin NOT taking it, but in the same vein as I can't imagine any rogue NOT taking one of the CA granting feats. I had this argument with the player who's going to playtest the assassin and who thought it should keep the feat tax. I do grant out Expertise and Improved Defenses for free in my home game (at level 4 forexpertise and level 11 for defenses) which may be why. There are less feat taxes with those given out for free.

The problem with a feat tax like that is that for the classes that use a feature like this, especially the ranger, don't use it as their main source of extra damage.

...Maybe make a utility power that allows switching of all shrouds from a target that just died to another target as a free action once per encounter.

The only thing worse than a feat tax for that would be a utility tax. The part where assassins really shone before was their incredible utility powers. Especially Ghost of the Rooftops (still an assassin power, still viable as a choice).

EDIT: Now I'm trying to think of something for the Twilight Hunter that doesn't deal with multi-attacks, but keeps the flavor of starting off slow, and building up momentum for the killing blow. I already discussed an expanded crit range feature that could actually probably work very well. Something along the lines of this: When you invoke your shrouds, add the number of shrouds on the target to the attack roll for the purpose of determining a critical hit. This does not change the attack roll, and you must still hit the target. Maybe that would work?