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Jul 14, 2011 -- 10:52AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

There's a feat for that? Had no idea. I just know that that was one of the most annoying things I've ever seen with this class. Ok, free action it is.

Yea it just came out in Dragon 401.  Not sure of the name though since I don't have DDI, but it's been talked about.

I'd rather just leave those alone. People can use them if they want, but I still think they kinda suck. Unless we get some multi-attacking powers in here, which would actually make Nightstalkers just a bit better. Oh, and your suggestion would almost make the Bleak Disciple a battlerager. I am going to poach your idea for the ongoing damage. That gives it a little rogueish feeling, but keeps it unique. The problem with your Nightstalker suggestion is that suddenly, you could get that bonus every round just by using Shadow Step every round. I might come up with some fixes for those guilds, but I rather like the idea that the assassin doesn't really have a secondary stat.

That's fair.  I kinda wanted to work with the two guilds that already exist just because there's already powers with riders for them.  So tweaking them to be a little better was something I've been trying to balance out.  I like your revised guilds though.  I might poach some of the ideas and try to twist them in for my own games.  I'd still remove the unbloodied req for Bleak Disciple, but remove the scaling (just flat Con mod).  Makes it comparable to other things that grant self thp (Invigorating powers, Blackguard/Paladin at-wills, Radiant Recovery feat, etc), but doesn't get too strong in paragon and epic when it would get the +2/+4.  Keeps the Assassin durable, but without defender-level defenses.

Versatile Defense doesn't really catch my eye too much as something I'd like here. Mostly because I don't picture an assassin weilding a shield unless he was throwing it (Captain America style!), but also because I plan on making a guild that specializes with big weapons, essentially weapons you wouldn't picture the stereotypical assassin using. Besides, the assassin is already proficient with light shields. Hmm. Maybe I'll use a slightly different version of it. And yes, I was planning on a Dex MBA at-will, at least. I just don't want this guy feeling too much like the executioner. Don't get me wrong, I love mine, but he's really more of a reflavored rogue than anything else. Part of why I want this class to survive.

Huh, never noticed they already had light shield prof.  Love the Shadow Armor idea though; a lot more flexible and flavorful.

Edit:  Interested in seeing what you come up with for an Assassin MBA at-will.  An interesting idea might be to grant partial concealment after hitting.  Won't allow the Assassin to make a Stealth check, but a good defensive buff. 

It's Inexorable Shroud.

Yea it just came out in Dragon 401.  Not sure of the name though since I don't have DDI, but it's been talked about.

I did a little snooping and found out that the feat is called Inexorable Shroud. But yeah, I baked that into the feature rather than make it a feat tax. WotC is fine to errata something to nerf it, but to fix something, it seems they just release new feat taxes for it. How hard is it to write 1-2 more sentences in the power block?

EDIT: And lookie there, someone beat me to the punch. Guess that's what I get for being so long winded.

That's fair.  I kinda wanted to work with the two guilds that already exist just because there's already powers with riders for them.  So tweaking them to be a little better was something I've been trying to balance out.  I like your revised guilds though.  I might poach some of the ideas and try to twist them in for my own games.  I'd still remove the unbloodied req for Bleak Disciple, but remove the scaling (just flat Con mod).  Makes it comparable to other things that grant self thp (Invigorating powers, Blackguard/Paladin at-wills, Radiant Recovery feat, etc), but doesn't get too strong in paragon and epic when it would get the +2/+4.  Keeps the Assassin durable, but without defender-level defenses.

Yeah, your ideas for revising the old guilds aren't bad, just not what I'm looking for. Although, a suggestion for the Nightstalker: just give the bonus with combat advantage/concealment. Makes it slightly easier to get, without making it as easy as, "I use Shadow Step!"

Huh, never noticed they already had light shield prof.  Love the Shadow Armor idea though; a lot more flexible and flavorful.

Yeah, I kinda just noticed that too. And I like Shadow Armor too, just remember that it wasn't my idea first.

Interested in seeing what you come up with for an Assassin MBA at-will.  An interesting idea might be to grant partial concealment after hitting. Won't allow the Assassin to make a Stealth check, but a good defensive buff.

That's not a bad idea. I might use that. And I just realized that I partially left implement users in the dust. If you have any suggestions for that, I'd love to hear them.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention, I'm going for almost a complete reboot here for the assassin powers, which is why I'm trying to avoid the original guilds if possible. 

Ahh, right Inexorable Shroud.  Good to know.  Yea I'm not sure why they didn't just throw the text into the class feature.  With all the feat taxes, it's hard to really use your feats for anything else (Expertise, Improved Defenses, Weapon Focus, Weapon/Superior Implement Proficiency, not including any class feats to patch holes like the Assassin).

Good point on Night Stalker.  CA/concealment is a better idea.  I was kinda throwing out ideas since I hadn't thought about Night Stalker as much.

Yea, I've seen the Shadow Armor idea floating around before.  Wish they implemented that in the beginning or with the Executioner (you're right, it does feel like a reflavored Rogue)

Implement users seem to get left by the wayside a lot unfortunately.  With fixed damage dice, it's hard to make them balanced with [W] damage since it varies so much (anywhere from 1d8 to 2d6...that makes a big difference even with the 2-3[w] powers).  The only thing I can say is that cold, necrotic, poison, and psychic seem to be the energy types associated with the Shadowfell, so implement powers will mostly use one or more of those types.  Though if you put in a necrotic focus, you'll want some way to deal with resist/immunity (since all undead have that and they take up a sizeable portion of the Monster Manuals and such).  Or add on a second type like they did with Blackguards.

An idea might be to make MBA/RBA at-wills that use either weapon or implement.  Ex: a weapon MBA (like Eldritch Strike), weapon RBA (like some Seeker at-wills), implement MBA (like Vampire's Slam), implement RBA (like Eldritch Blast/some Sorcerer at-wills).  But that's pretty repetitive in the basic attack area, though the ability to use weapons/implements in melee or range is something that'd provide some flexibility.

Ok.  I kinda assumed you would look to just tweak the powers that already exist rather than make completely new ones.  That'll be an undertaking by itself. 

Yeah, all those basic attacks would be rather repetitive. Oh well, I'll make it work. Or maybe I'll just let them use Dex on a MBA.

And I know that making a bunch of new powers is gonna be quite the project, but it'll be well worth it in the end, especially if some of these ideas actually get adopted. How great would that be? I'll probably tweak some of the old powers to make them work better. I think it's mostly that the powers lean too much towards the controller sub-role to be of much use to a striker.

Pretty much.  For the most part, some minor action, immediate action, free action triggered attacks and such will yield higher damage in an encounter.  Standard actions being a bit controllery would be fine then since your off turn attacks help boost damage.

One thing I do like about a few of the Assassin powers are things like Shadow Darts, where you make three attack rolls and the more that hit, the more damage it deals.  Also gives a pretty decent chance to crit.

Yeah, shadow darts was actually decent, just needed to deal some dex mod damage. That kind of crit-fishing was a decent idea, but I'm not sure it was fully explored. Besides, I see the assassin as more of a crit-hunter, if you know what I mean. For example, a crit-fisher improves its average chance to crit, whereas a crit-hunter would be able to roll a crit when it counts the most. Like some kind of mechanic that expands the crit range based on the number of shrouds on the target. Sounds like good paragon path material to me, especially if you word it in a way that stacks with things like Jagged Weapons and the Weapon Mastery feats.

I would tie soemthing like that to use of a action point or soemthing or else they may crit to often and that would way way overpower them.

But say soemthing for a pargon path that says when you spend a action point to make a attack roll you count a roll of 18 or 19 as if you had rolled a 20. This ability stacks with other such crit enhanceing feats by further increasing the chance to crit by 2

This way while th epower is strong it can only be used once per 2 combats relisticaly

Or just make it the level 16 feature. You realize that that would only grant them a 25% chance to crit every four rounds. You could further limit that to something like, the target must be subjected to X shrouds. I would word it like this:

If you hit with an attack that you invoked your shrouds on, add the number of shrouds that the target was subjected to to the attack roll for the purpose of determining a critical hit. This does not change the attack roll.

As I said before, you could further limit it by saying that the target must have X amount of shrouds on it. Or you could even do this:

If you hit with an attack that you invoked your shrouds on, divide the number of shrouds that the target was subjected to by two, then add that number to the attack roll for the purpose of determining a critical hit. This does not change the attack roll.

That would limit it to 15% chance to crit every four rounds,  but it would still stack with Jagged Weapon/Weapon Mastery.

there are a few powers that drop crit to 18-20 on the roll but they are all daily powers so a power that granted the crit increase every 4 rounds is OP

There are also paragon paths that grant crits on 18-20 all the time. But we should just ignore those, because... oh wait. We shouldn't. They're valid material.

Needle's Poison guild is one I slightly struggle with - ongoing damage is OK as a striker mechanic (but it has to be quite large to be better than just hitting a bit harder) however, unless you can increase ongoing damage already present, it can make it a little difficult to focus your fire, since you don't want to hit the same guy again and waste to opportunity to stick some ongoing onto someone else.  Making the character able to extend the ongoing damage, either by increasing it on a target already taking it, or by imposing a save penalty, would be more useful than increasing ongoing damage already deealt by the power.

I had actually considered making it stack, but I hadn't thought of the save penalty. Would a save end all the damage, or just 5? My DM does some nasty things with ongoing damage, mostly by making them stack, so I know personally how horrible it can be to have ongoing damage stack with multiple saves. I hate burning skeletons.

Regarding ongoing damage:
Ongoing damage of the same type doesn't stack unfortunately.  Different types do.  Example, if you get hit with ongoing 5 fire and ongoing 5 cold, then both effects apply and you must save vs both to end them.  But if you're hit with ongoing 5 fire and then another ongoing 5 fire, then you only have one ongoing 5 fire effect on you and only need to make one save.  

spaceinvader makes a good point.  Either a save penalty or hit increasing the ongoing damage would be good.  Or both.  Or some benefit when attacking enemies with ongoing damage on them (though that becomes worthless if the enemy saves)

Though I can see it being difficult to balance.  Ongoing damage can easily deal a large chunk of damage (more so than +stat mod extra damage and such).  Problem is 1) it's delayed damage, so it takes time for it to take effect, 2) if the target drops before taking ongoing, then it's wasted.

One nice thing about ongoing damage though is the tiefling feat Icy Clutch of Stygia.  An enemy who saves against ongoing damage takes a sizable chunk of cold damage.  But that's a specific race.  Though a miniature version of it might be good. 

I know that's how ongoing damage works, and I updated the Needle's Poison guild so that they stack their ongoing damage, but one save ends all of it. Should I still impose a save penalty? Also, I put the non-guild at-wills up. Check them out and tell me what you think.

Jul 14, 2011 -- 4:22PM, Kronoshifter wrote:

There are also paragon paths that grant crits on 18-20 all the time. But we should just ignore those, because... oh wait. We shouldn't. They're valid material.

I will take your word on it I am not particularly well versed in the 60 zillion paragon paths out there having only encountered say 30 or 40 of the few hundread so perhaps a little less sas and flat rudeness might be entitled I mean I was stating a veiw and opinion and not saying it in a rude manor least I didn't think I was so why the rather rude responce?

It is ok I have plenty of other topics where I don't get rude responces I will take my time and opinion elsewhere

*Edit ok so thinking back I remember a couple one for radiant damage powers one for beast powers rouges have one for rouge or daggermaster powers when using a dagger I am sure there are some others all prety restrictive but You are ight there are a decent number of pargaon path prob 1% or so that grant a crit increase to specific kind of attack.

Though I would be interested for you to point me to a encounter or at will power or feature in the heroic tear that increases the crit range, Perhaps I am unaware of it and there is one out there.

Far as apragon path which were not realy talking about yet as far as I am aware but again I am sure I addle mindedly missed something it is not outside the realm of a paragon path to grant such a thing. still didn't have to be so dammed rude with the responce though

Jul 15, 2011 -- 2:05AM, stargazer_dragon wrote:

I will take your word on it I am not particularly well versed in the 60 zillion paragon paths out there having only encountered say 30 or 40 of the few hundread so perhaps a little less sas and flat rudeness might be entitled I mean I was stating a veiw and opinion and not saying it in a rude manor least I didn't think I was so why the rather rude responce?

It is ok I have plenty of other topics where I don't get rude responces I will take my time and opinion elsewhere

I apologize. I didn't mean to be rude. I just thought that everyone was familiar with at least the daggermaster, who gets a crit range of 18-20. Then again that is with daggers, but there are still some pretty sickening combos with that (I'm looking at you Bloodiron Weapon). I'm just saying that giving a 15% chance to crit every four rounds with any weapon sounds about as balanced as a 15% chance to crit any time with daggers, or kukris if you have a nice DM.

 

I actually had to refresh my memory on paragon paths I not used them a whole lot and when we do we spend so long looking through and choosing them that it is easy to forget most of what you have read is all.

and yea a dagger or implement crit is a lot less then say a greataxe there’s a huge possible damage difference same with beast powers and radiant powers both of which don't have the damage output. though granting a crit bonus when you have 4 shrouds on the target and using a light blade might help resolve that or allowing them to trade a D6 damage from the shroud out for a +1 chance to crit might be balanced

*edit sorry for the mistypes I flip letters sometimes and other times my keyboarded just neglects to enter a letter I hit topped with bad spelling and grammar yea just felt I should apologies for that since it seams some of my responses are hard to read did a spell check to correct this one lol even I had a hard time reading part of it

Yeah, I realize that a greataxe may be more powerful than a dagger for that purpose, but there are still plenty more PPs that give out expanded crit range, although usually 19-20. I probably was gonna limit it to light blades, that way the most you could get out of it is 8 max damage, whether that's with a rapier or a spiked chain with the multiclass feat. Although trading shroud damage for expanded crit range isn't a bad idea either.

EDIT: Actually, I'd limit it to light blade in off hand. That particular PP is gonna be for the Twilight Hunters, which I'm modeling somewhat off of Artemis Entreri from the Legend of Drizzt series. If you don't know what I'm talking about, you should read it. It's a good series.

yes they are very good books I am almost to the end of the last book int he series wont talk about it to much for those who have yet to read the books but yes definatly great books but all of his so far have ben.

restricted to offhanded light blades definatly brings the power into line with most the others out there.

Perhaps allow a build that uses larger weapons to tade out shroud damage for a better chance to crit as part of there paragon path since that makes the trade a more viable option then if you were using a dagger not that some of the enchants can't amke for a very mean dagger crit

That is a great suggestion for another idea of a guild I had. They don't go for the "hide in the shadows and stab you in the back" style of assassin so much as the "I have a big weapon, and I know how to kill anything with it" style. Not to say that they CAN'T hide in the shadows, they love the fear they cause in others with their big weapons. And sacrificing the shroud damage for increased crit range would probably balance it out for them.

possibly one of these 3 might work

You may use a shroud to increase the chance to crit by 1, you may not spend more then 3 in this way and may not use any in this way untill you have 4 shrouds on the target.

or

For every 2 shrouds you sack you gain a +1 chance to crit and +1W damage on a crit

or

Every two shrouds you spend increase your attack roll by 1 Treat your roll as if it was one higher when determaining criticaly hits.

That last one is gonna need just a bit more explaining.

This is also a shout out for everyone's ideas and feedback. I've got all the at-wills up now, and I think they do the assassin justice rather well. Although, they may lean too much towards the controller sub-role, which I really hope isn't the case. 

Like the at-wills a lot.  Glad you used my idea for the MBA 

The RBA power is cool.  Not sure if it's too strong since a -2 penalty to all defenses is equivalent to handing out +2 hit to all your allies vs the target.  Though there might be another at-will out there that does the same, in which case, it's awesome!

The guild at-wills are a nice touch.  Shadow Venom's scaling penalty to saves vs ongoing meshes very well with the guild.  Definitely a better option from adding the save penalty now that the ongoing stacks.

Silent Arrow may need a line requiring concealment or cover (normal stealth requires total concealment or total cover).  As it is, you can hit, move, stealth check to become hidden OR miss and remain hidden from the guild feature.  Compare to the Rogue's Cunning Sneak feature in MP2.  Even though you would be using the same at-will over and over again, I don't think it should be that simple to be hidden.

Shadow Flurry.  Hmm, semi-Twin Strike.  Though more like the Barbarian at-will in Primal Power.  Definitely the strongest option, but I don't think it's too strong.

Ah, you're right. I'll nerf Silent Arrow, I think that's how I imagined it being used anyway. And I think Shadow Flurry definitely will be the strongest if you're going for pure damage. Part of why the at-wills aren't pick-and-choose, although that just makes it so optimizers will likely just choose twilight hunter.

the last option I had posted was basicaly expend two shrouds to gain a +1 to hit and a +1 to crit range.

As for balenceing the guilds so optimizers don't just choose the one guild thats simple add in encounter powers that have riders for the other guild that might make a optimizer have to stop and question which guild they want. At will might be better for guild A but then guild b has this realy cool encounter power but then I realy like the feature of guild c; should be about how it ends up otherwise the guilds arn't balenced well.

I will look over powers and junk and leave feadback on them laters busy with other prodjects at the moment

That's what I'm trying to do at the moment. Coming up with powers for the Death's Whisper guild is tough, cause I'm trying to design them as a sniper.

What you got so far perhaps I can help you with a few ideas

I don't really have anything so far. That's why I'm stuck for the moment.

silent arrow needs reworded as it is worded now it makes it seam as if you get a -2 to the stealth check If you have concealment or cover.

I think you probably inteded it to mean you make make a stealth roll -2 to remain hidden as long as you have cover or concealment or perhaps soemthing else not entirely sure.


for encounter powers some idea might be

Unbalenceing shot 2W + abil damage and the target is slowed untill end of there next turn
Spacial: if your are hidden when you make this attack the target is also knocked prone.

Prime shot 2W + abil damage If you are hidden and have combat advantage then this attack does 1W extra damage

Multi Shot 1W damage repeat the attack against a target within 5 spaces
Special: if you are hidden when you make this attack you may treat the second target as if they had the same number of shrouds on them as the primary target.

Aimed shot 2W + ability damage As long as you are hidden you may treat a roll of 19 or 20 as a crit and do 1W extra damage on a crit.

Arrow barrage Burst 1 within 10; 1W +ability damage Special you may shift 2 before you make this attack as a free action.

those are a few power thoughts if non of them fit what your after maybe some further info of your mental immage might help

Yeah, the wording on that one is tough, but you got the intent right. I'll have a go at rewording it.

Also, for future reference for anyone that suggests powers, remember that this is a shadow class, not martial. Think shadowy, at least when you're naming them. That being said, I like the idea for multi shot, I'll just change it up a bit.

allt he power sugestions were ment to be was some ideas, things to be altered to fit into the designe. I didn't balence them super well or writ them into stat blocks as I figured they would give us a base ground to build from and the rest will follow, were kinda like a quick brain strom. but if you need any other help let me know also as a side note names and fluff is my weak point stats and ideas are more my thing specialy comming up with ideas. I am still learning the balence of things a bit more but then everyone has there own idea of what is and isn't balenced

Yeah, balance isn't exactly a strong point for me either, although I think I'm starting to get a decent grasp on it. What I'm worried about most is gimping the class as badly as WotC did, followed closely by making it far too powerful.

I usualy get a solid feal for what I want fluff/effect wise then find a power that is very similar and adapt it to fit my desired outcome this way I have a basis for damage/effect. with so many powers out there Ic an usualy find one that is close to my desired look and feal after all most powers are the same stat blocks refluffed with a few tweaks for thematic effect and to make it feal difrent

Alright, I got all the level 1 encounter powers up, finally. Check 'em out and tell me what you guys think.

at quick glance they seam prety balenced

Also a idea for shrouds leats the way we used shrouds.

• when making a attack you are always assumed to be invoking your shrouds unless stated otherwise
• If you hit the target you did the shroud damage but the shroud was not expended
• If you missed the target then you did shroud damage (minus the normal 1 shroud) and all shrouds were expended)
• You could only benifit from your shrouds once per turn unless you had a power/feat that said otherwise.

During playtests this worked great, made the shrouds more reliable and still allowed you to stealth stack them and make use of them during combat to. Brought the damage much more in line with Sneak attack

1D6 round 1
2D6 round 2
3D6 round 3
4D6 round 4

10 D6 totle at round 4

Sneak did 8D6 at round 4 so less damage but easier to increase to more damage & much more versatile / reliable

That would be great if that weren't the level 30 feature of Perfect Slayer, which I think did wonders for the Assassin's DPR, but still wasn't enough for it to catch up. I think that WotC intended the Assassin's schtick to be huge spikes while dealing average damage between them. But they failed miserably in doing so. They failed less miserably with the Executioner, but he can only reliably do one epic spike per encounter. Not to mention that other classes can still outdamage the Executioner's encounter power with theirs.

EDIT: I also got a daily power up.

not familure with the lvl 30 power but then if you reach lvl 30 your basicaly retired so no need for a power no more lol

my knoledge of lvl 21+ is very little just don't have hardly any use for it

You don't retire the second you get to level 30. You retire after your epic destiny quest, which only happens once your entire party gets to level 30, and I imagine that it's quite long, and most likely ends with a boss like Orkus or Lolth.

I tend to retire chars to npc hood before lvl 30 just don't enjoy running the epic stuff as much in 4.0

many char compleate there epic path as NPC's as to say that I reuse there chars down the road in lores tales or soemtimes even directly but if they make it that high they will become a part of my realm and evolve/grow with it. epic lvl bogs down though and I tend to retire and start a new game by lvl 25/26

just looked up perfect slayer, what we use for assasins is like a weaker version of that. A miss resets the shrouds to 0 and does damage based on the number of shrouds that were on the target.

4 shourds does 3D6 damage on a miss 3 does 2D6 2 does 1D6 1 does no damage.

so only way to build up the shrouds is to keap hitting where the lvl 30 feature you never lose shrouds unless you deside to and no clue why you would ever do that. also Shrouds with our way only apply to a silgle target choosing a difrent target resets the shrouds lvl 30 feature way ti is worded does not have that effect.

So after looking at it our way is a nerfed version of the lvl 30 feature

True, your version is a bit watered down, but that's still pretty good. I'll just keep it the way I've got it for now, mostly because combining that and having new not-underpowered powers would put the assassin a bit over the top. Speaking of powers, I've got another daily up.

shrouds just need to be balenced with sneak attack

does shrouds have a + damage dice size feat?

if not then making that into a feat would be balenced

Jul 19, 2011 -- 8:22PM, stargazer_dragon wrote:

does shrouds have a + damage dice size feat?

Yes, in the last Assassin article. 

Trust me on this, there have been very large and very long discussions on what exactly is wrong with the assassin. The general consensus of these discussions was that most of what was wrong with the assassin was the powers, i.e. too much focus on controller, not enough on striker, etc. While I agree that there were problems with assassin's shroud, nothing says it needs to be balanced with sneak attack. In fact, the shrouds are more in line with hunter's quarry and warlock's curse. All that really needed to be done was tweak the weird scaling and bake in Inexorable Shroud and Hidden Insight. And for that matter, yes there is a feat for increasing the die size, it's called Lethal Shroud, although they could have been slightly more original with that.

In a stroke of inspiration, I have completed the level 1 dailies, although I'm almost certain that a few are overpowered. Let the reviewing commence! Also, if someone could point me in the direction of something that can make all this into a nice little pdf, that would be great.

I personaly got the costly adobe program that seams to work alright, not realy done much with it yet though since my classes I am working on are only 1/3 done

Oddly enough I didn't think of that. I found out that Word has an option to save something as a PDF, so I'll just use that. On another note, I just realized that my new version of the assassin is playable all the way through level 1 (or level 2 if you can deal with the current choice of utility powers)!

once you get it all compleate I could try to make a PDF for you from my adobe but you might well do a better job of it with what you have

I've been messing around with the assassin in my home game so figured I'd poke my head in. Obviously all of these are just an opinion, great part about D&D is you run whatever you feel like in your games.

As many others have said, the assassin doesn't lack too much in the feature department.

The increase in HP is good. I still think Wotc was silly to do this to a melee class without some sort of defense booster. The fact that the new Bladesinger arcane melee controller has typical striker hit points is a true slap in the face to this class.

The change to the shroud I agree with. Rolling more dice is much more exciting than adding +24.

Shadow step: I didn't even realize that wasn't already in there.

Shade Form: The assassin already has a fair amount of beginning features. Shade form is a free encounter because it really doesn't do much, but be flavor. Kinda like a really cool cantrip. That is unless you grab Assassin's Escape, which is fantastic. If someone has that feat, this addition to the power suddenly makes it too good. For one feat you just got 2 uses of an immediate interrupt that HALVES damage per encounter.

Guild training: I do think that some new guild training is needed, but I feel that focusing on just one or possibly two is the best way to start.
             Twilight Hunter: Yay reliable damage bonus. This is a good bonus.
             Needle's Poison: While not optimal, I'm a fan of ongoing damage for an assassin build. This said, if you are going to be inflicting an effect you should make this into a power. As it is worded right now, it is a little more confusing. Do you add the ongoing damage (save ends) as a free action? No action? Does it occur when you use your shroud feature on a target? When you hit with an attack? When you invoke shrouds? Also, you phrased it once per turn. Can I use this on an off turn if I attack with an immediate interrupt? Can I use it on their turn regardless?

                   I'd reccomend re-stating it to be once per round, not once per turn. Perhaps something like. "While a target is subject to at least two of your shrouds, you can inflict that target with 5 ongoing damage (save ends) as a free action once per round on your turn. This does not count as an attack. The damage increases to 10 ongoing damage (save ends) at level 11 and 15 ongoing damage (save ends) at level 21."

Death's whisper: I'm not too big a fan of ranged weapons on the assassin. It would require completely new powers and doesn't mesh well with anything they currently have. Btw, do ki focuses work with ranged weapons? (I don't see why they wouldn't but I'm not sure).

Something I just noticed with both Death's whisper and Twilight hunter. The damage bonuses they get can be applied PER attack. This is easily too good/fiddly. An assassin with such a feature may want to dip into ranger or barbarian for some high multi-attack goodness. I'd specify that these bonuses are only 1/round or 1/turn if you want them to be triggerable with immediate interrupts. Otherwise this allows a Death's Whisper to get an additioanl +16 damage PER ATTACK at epic. A smart player would be able to abuse this on a nova with 2 multi-attack powers plus at least one minor attack. You must be hidden to get the bonus, but as with the ranger's Dark Strider, there are many ways of getting hidden after making an attack roll. Or perhaps I'm over-reacting and there really aren't that many ways.


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Daily Powers Show

Jul 21, 2011 -- 5:54PM, VampyresThrenody wrote:

Needle's Poison: While not optimal, I'm a fan of ongoing damage for an assassin build. This said, if you are going to be inflicting an effect you should make this into a power. As it is worded right now, it is a little more confusing. Do you add the ongoing damage (save ends) as a free action? No action? Does it occur when you use your shroud feature on a target? When you hit with an attack? When you invoke shrouds? Also, you phrased it once per turn. Can I use this on an off turn if I attack with an immediate interrupt? Can I use it on their turn regardless?

Wow, I didn't even realize how ambiguously I'd worded that. I did purposely phrase it as once per turn and it is meant as a free no action. And don't forget that the ongoing damage stacks with any other ongoing damage. So subsequent hits go something like 5, 10, 15, etc. I think that keeps it more in line with the other guilds. I could give that a power form, I guess.

Death's whisper: I'm not too big a fan of ranged weapons on the assassin. It would require completely new powers and doesn't mesh well with anything they currently have. Btw, do ki focuses work with ranged weapons? (I don't see why they wouldn't but I'm not sure).

I think ranged weapons on assassins are perfectly fine. Remember not every assassin can or wants to be up close and personal about anything. Plenty of assassinations happen with the assassin far away, looking down the crosshairs of a crossbow/gun. Also, yes ki focuses work with ranged weapons. If they don't my Executioner is gonna be really pissed.

Something I just noticed with both Death's whisper and Twilight hunter. The damage bonuses they get can be applied PER attack. This is easily too good/fiddly. An assassin with such a feature may want to dip into ranger or barbarian for some high multi-attack goodness. I'd specify that these bonuses are only 1/round or 1/turn if you want them to be triggerable with immediate interrupts. Otherwise this allows a Death's Whisper to get an additioanl +16 damage PER ATTACK at epic. A smart player would be able to abuse this on a nova with 2 multi-attack powers plus at least one minor attack. You must be hidden to get the bonus, but as with the ranger's Dark Strider, there are many ways of getting hidden after making an attack roll. Or perhaps I'm over-reacting and there really aren't that many ways.

There are a few things I'm gonna say here. A) I purposely made it that way. I want to give the assassin incentive to actually stack the shrouds. And I can't do that with every power.
B) You have to stack the shrouds, which means spending four rounds without your extra striker damage going off. C)This is easily abusable, but all that means is that I have to cut down on the amount of attacks per power. I could also limit it to only on your turn too. D) I remember specifically stating that the guild benefits only apply to assassin and assassin paragon path powers. Maybe not the paragon path powers, but at least assassin powers, so no multiclass shenanigans.

Shadow Flurry: Since this is the guild at-will, this is too good IMO. There's really no reason to pick -any- other guild if this is available as a guild power. Twin strike is generally considered one of, if not the, best at-will (for damage) in the game. It's a core reason why the DPR of a ranger can get so high. Shadow flurry has the requirement that it only hits one target (which any non-sorcerer striker is doing anyway in order to wipe a target off the map asap, which is their job) and does more damage than twin strike does. So, it can't be used to murder 2 minions, but that's not really the primary job of an assassin anyway. Leave that to the classes with burst/blast at-wills. There's really no reason to use any other at-will.

I knew Shadow Flurry was gonna get called out, I just knew it, what with all the people crying for nerfing of twin strike. Here's the catch with it though. You still have to hit with the both attacks, and you absolutely have to hit with the first attack or you don't get any damage. I think that brings it in line. If that doesn't then I'll just get rid of the dex mod damage and call it a day. Or scrap the whole guild and do something with crit range. The idea behind it is that the first hit sets the target up for the second hit. Something like that.

Shadow Venom: Wow the word shadow appears alot..its really hard to come up with unique names for powers, isn't it? I sympathize! I like this power. It has a benefit works well with your new guild ideas and with a concept that generally doesn't work well for strikers (ongoing damage) but is flavorful enough that I feel it should be attempted.

I agree, originality is hard, especially when I'm trying to keep to the more shadowy side of the assassin that WotC has created. Which instantly makes the word shadow come to mind.

Dusk fangs: multi-attacks are good for strikers. Keep in mind though that multi-attacking is what the ranger does very well. The assassin is going to feel very much like a ranger if it has/picks nothing but multi-attack powers. Unfortunatley, balance-wise, this is where strikers need to go. Finding unique ways of getting those multi-attacks (minors/immediates/something else) is what can make a class stand out from the ranger.

I know, I'm not liking how particularly rangery my attacks are feeling right now. Then again, I've only gone one level, so I'll try to add in more minor action attacks and off turn attacks.

Blood strike: I like it. The problem with ongoing damage is it should always be calculated to do about as much, or just very slightly less than a typical power would do if you include the first bout of ongoing damage. You can't rely on it getting off more than once, and even if it does, its delayed damage. Delayed damage is not as useful for a team. That said, this being necrotic really restricts it. Since alot of your other powers are cold and necrotic, I'd reccomend doing the same here.

Yeah, necrotic does limit it. Mind you, the ongoing damage isn't necrotic, just the weapon damage. I've used necrotic and cold on every encounter power so far, just trying to mix things up. A Needle's Poison assassin can probably rely on getting ongoing damage off more than once, at least more than other classes can.

Shadow Barrage: This power is creative. If anything, this actually makes me like the idea of a Death Whisper.

Thank you.

Shadow Rift: Nice name. Good job avoiding just necrotic damage. Too many things are immune/resist [see above]. I'm not too keen on area attacks for the assassin since, for me, its a class that focuses on a single target. That said, having one burst encounter isn't a bad idea if no one else has one.

Yeah, I was kinda strapped for ideas, and it occured to me that I was leaving implement users in the dust, at least as much as you can with a ki focus user.

Note: Your powers are competing with one of the few levels where the assassin already has a decent/good power--Shadow Darts. Keep that in mind when creating more powers. I'd focus on the levels where the assassin powers are truly DREADFUL.

I know, they had a few good options at level 1. Or more, horrible powers with 1 or 2 shining gems to pick from.

All of these are competing with Targeted in Death (or whatever the name of the power is with the Effect: place two shrouds one is). With that in mind, many of the powers you made here don't have much of a reason to get picked.

Yeah, targeted for death is really a fantastic power, but I'm also gonna say that these powers are meant to replace current ones, not exactly go along side them. But whatever works, ya know.

Shadow Dance: Weak damage to three targets and the possibility of immobolizing one target under very specific conditions. This is really weak power wise, but again I'm just not a fan of attacking more than one t arget as a striker.

Just because it says "up to 3 creatures" does not mean that you can't just target one. Keep that in mind, and I think that the power increases drastically. I wouldn't exactly call 3[W] + 3(dex mod) + 3(enhancement, weapon focus, Twilight Hunter benefit, etc.) weak. Also, I was fishing for a status effect there. Immobilized seemed like one that wasn't entirely overpowered when combined with all that damage.

Black Venom: A solid amount of W damage, targetting a non-AC defense and a small debuff. Not bad. The effect is a nice add-on as well. The only thing I dislike with this power is that it is Implement and not a melee/weapon power. Unless you are starting off an encounter hidden with four shrouds, you'll likely take at least 2-3 rounds to build up the required shrouds to use this power (yes, not required, but no one is going to waste their effect on a daily!). Assassin's are primarily melee classes so would likely need to disengage from an enemy just to use this daily.

Wow, I must have been REALLY tired when I wrote that power up, because it shouldn't be dealing weapon damage, as it's an implement attack. Then again, I could just change it, either to melee weapon, or melee 1. And who says that assassins are primarily melee? Now that I think about it, that's one of the things that's wrong with the assassin. No ranged options. I think that it's high time D&D got a sniper.

Whisper in the Dark: Control! Blind! Perfect. The save ends is good as well and stealthy. I like this power. You know, this ranged-death whisper assassin may grow on me if you keep making good powers for it.

Again, thank you. Also, the name of the power is a not-so-subtle reference to one of my favorite songs.

Dark flourish: I don't know what to say on this one. I like Immediate interrupts, I like that it uses a monster's attack on itself. I feel that its swingy with damage, but that's what happens when you rely on the enemy hurting itself. It's much better against newer monsters that use the higher damage values.

I wasn't sure what to think of this power when I came up with it either. I imagined an assassin catching an arrow midflight, vanishing, then reappearing behind the one who shot the arrow and stabbing it with the arrow. I might bump it up to 2[W] damage, but if you think about it, it's already negating damage to you, dealing that to your enemy instead, dealing a bit more damage, and to top it all off, it's an immediate interrupt. Very competetive, I would say.

After several hours of hard work and annoying formatting, I have finished a preview of the PDF version of this thread. It only goes as far as the recommended builds for level 1, you know that part that's like, "Make Dexterity your highest ability score blah blah blah." Anyways, that's as far as I've gotten, but so far I think it looks rather professional, although a few things might seem a little out of place, the power version of the Needle's Poison guild benefit being the biggest offender. Anyways, I'm going to attach it to the original post, so go check it out, and tell me what you think.

I know it's not likely, but if anyone downloaded the assassin pdf, I noticed a small typo in the Venom Strike power, and it needed to be corrected. I've posted the new download, just download that file and you should be good. Sorry for the inconvenience!

Venom strike looks good. The only question I have is what you mean by stacking. If they have 5 ongoing damage from a power, do they now take 10 ongoing damage or do they take 5 ongoing and 5 ongoing regardless of the type of damage that it deals? I know you already explained it as stacking with the 10-ongoing save ends to 15, etc, ending with one save, but I figured I'd point out the ambiguity of the feature power.

Random thought, it may be easier to give Needle's Poison something like a +stat to damage against targets taking ongoing damage than to fiddle with the at-will ongoing damage feature. This way they'd rely on attacks to give out ongoing damage. Perhaps make an at-will power that does stat mod ongoing damage. Something like:

Poison Blade	Assassin Atttack 1
Its poison, duh.
[At-Will] [Shadow, weapon, poison]
[Standard Action] - Melee Weapon
Target:One Creature
Attack:[Dex vs. AC]
Hit: 1[W] and the target takes ongoing damage equal to your constitution modifier (save ends).

Regarding multi-attacks, I think that the problem lies in just making it a simple multiple attack. What if we change it up? How about the first attack is implement based and then the second is a melee weapon attack? For example, assassin throws a dagger of cold damage and then teleports b ehind the enemy, gets CA for the attack, and does a melee strike.

Make its multi-attacks do something that the ranger doesn't. That doesn't really help the twilight hunter guild at all, but I don't really know how to make it feel unique without making the powers do more than the ranger multi-attacks do.

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Jul 22, 2011 -- 8:08AM, VampyresThrenody wrote:

Venom strike looks good. The only question I have is what you mean by stacking. If they have 5 ongoing damage from a power, do they now take 10 ongoing damage or do they take 5 ongoing and 5 ongoing regardless of the type of damage that it deals? I know you already explained it as stacking with the 10-ongoing save ends to 15, etc, ending with one save, but I figured I'd point out the ambiguity of the feature power.

Ok, this is how it works. If you use a power that deals 5 ongoing damage, and you use venom strike, that power now deals 10 ongoing damage. The idea behind it is that you're poisoning their essence, or soul, or something equally nasty. It stacks like that because that gives you incentive to attack the same target. The reason one save ends all is because I know first hand just how nasty having to make three separate saves to save against 15 ongoing damage is.

Random thought, it may be easier to give Needle's Poison something like a +stat to damage against targets taking ongoing damage than to fiddle with the at-will ongoing damage feature. This way they'd rely on attacks to give out ongoing damage. Perhaps make an at-will power that does stat mod ongoing damage.

I'm trying to avoid ability mod damage as a class feature. It works great for some classes, but I don't picture it working well for my assassin. Not sure why.

Regarding multi-attacks, I think that the problem lies in just making it a simple multiple attack. What if we change it up? How about the first attack is implement based and then the second is a melee weapon attack? For example, assassin throws a dagger of cold damage and then teleports b ehind the enemy, gets CA for the attack, and does a melee strike.

That's not a bad idea. Well, except that the marauder ranger does practically the same thing, just with a charge instead of a teleport. Still, I could probably work something like that in.

Make its multi-attacks do something that the ranger doesn't. That doesn't really help the twilight hunter guild at all, but I don't really know how to make it feel unique without making the powers do more than the ranger multi-attacks do.

The problem here is that the ranger already does just about any multi-attack you can think of. I mean, you came up with the implement attack, teleport, and stab, and the ranger already does something just like that.

On guild training: You're right, assassin's do need more incentives to build shrouds. I do wonder if the incentive is too strong for a death whisper though. Getting +16 on all attacks may be better than getting +12d6 on one attack. I suppose the main issue here is whether or not the Death whisper actually gets any multi-attacks. If they don't, then they're only getting that +8 once or twice a round (immediate interrupts or a minor attack). This promotes the following play: Use at-wills, build up shrouds, NOVA with as many encounters as you have. If you have encounters left, save them, use them again next round, invoke shrouds. You know..I think this is -exactly- the play style that should be promoted with the assassin.

Yeah, I think I really nailed it with the Death's Whisper. I'm gonna try to limit the multi-attacks that they get for the reason of that massive static bonus. The real issue here is that now I need to give them a reason to ACTUALLY invoke the shrouds. Also, you still get the bonus on the same attack that you invoke the shrouds on. I'm just not sure how to word it.

I also think that Shadow Armor is too much. The assassin already gets its HP moved up to regular striker (needed), but the addition to ac/reflex is a big boost. The rogue doesn't get any sort of defensive boost and it is in the same boat as the assassin - Dex-based, melee, leather user. The assassin's AC and reflex should  be fine with it using Dex primarily and having access to leather armor. Keep in mind that for the cost of 2 feats, the assassin gets Shadow Walk too.

Yeah, but that sucks up your multiclass feat. Remember that the executioner gets light shield proficiency or two weapon defense for free. I think that I just need to limit it in some way. I'll think of something.

Twilight hunter uses two weapons. This means they'll likely have some multi-attack powers. However, their extra feature boosts damage based on shrouds. I'd run with this idea also and make powers for them that focus on having many shrouds/adding more shrouds/getting a boost for invoking the shrouds with this power.

Yeah, what I'm going for here is some sort of Artemis Entreri style build with the Twilight Hunter. If you don't know who Artemis Entreri is, he's an assassin with fighting skills equal to Drizzt Do'Urden. If you don't know who Drizzt Do'Urden is, you absolutely need to read the series. Legend of Drizzt. Check it out.

Needle's poison uses ongoing damage. If you keep the Venom feature then having more powers that add ongoing damage makes it a little more confusing (which is okay, its an advanced class). You can also do things such as:

Opportunistic Strike	Assassin Attack 13
[Insert flavor text here ...]
Encounter Shadow, Implement, Poison
Immediate Interrupt - Melee, touch Trigger: An adjacent enemy succeeds on a saving throw against an ongoing damage effect.
Target:Triggering Creature
Attack:Dex vs. Ref
[hit]: 3d8 + dexterity damage and the target fails its save against the ongoing poison. Needle's Poison: The target takes a penalty to saving throws against ongoing damage equal to your constitution modifier until the end of its next turn.

That is an excellent idea! I will be sure to use that!

Shadow Dance: You're right, I mis-read that. It may actually be too good if its three attacks! Its better than the premier level 1 ranger daily which just does 2[w] twice. But at the same time, its only one step up from rain of blows which has three attacks and is a level 3 encounter, so its probably fine. I suppose the reason I don't like it is that it feels very good but quite bland, unlike many other assassin powers (which are flavorful but awful) or some of the other powers you've made which are both flavorful and good.

It's 2[W] + str mod, actually, but yeah. It is awfully hard to come up with multi-attack powers that don't make you go, "Hmm, this feels like the ranger..."

Black venom: Yeah..keep it as an implement. The assassin could use some more. I don't think it' be much of a sniper-y power though. Likely it'd be used from directly in front of the target for most builds unless you're a death-whisper or otherwise deciding to focus on implement powers. Maybe if there were good implement powers an assassin could actually do that! The only problem with it is that they would benefit best from either Night Stalker (which, suddenly becomes useful if you're targetting that one ranged guy in the back with your own ranged powers) or needle's poison.

I'm trying to keep the Needle's Poison powers versatile between melee and range, because, as of now, it's the only guild that I've made that doesn't restrict weapon use. 

She also had something called "Dancing Hornet style." Let me link the text real quick:
"When you have a weapon with the off-hand property in each hand,  all your weapon attacks deal additional damage equal to 1[W] (off-hand  weapon) + ability modifier damage associated with your guild training.  No other bonuses apply to this additional damage. Example: a power that  deals 1[W] + Dexterity modifier damage would now deal 1[W] + 1[W]  (off-hand weapon) + Dexterity modifier + Charisma or Constitution  modifier damage. You may give up this additional damage to reroll the  attack, but you must use the new result, even if it is lower."

I think I posted on that thread. While that is a fantastic idea, I don't want to just poach it. And I don't want to limit my assassin to off-hand weapons. Light blades maybe, but not off-hand.

I think this is an interesting way of adding in an extra "attack" without actually providing another attack. Although I do personally like the twilight hunter's guild training bonus, it doesn't really scream "I use two weapons" so much as its powers do.

Most classes that dual wield don't have class features that really scream "I use two weapons" either. It's mostly the powers that do that.

I must be overwhelming you with feedback at this point, sorry. I had a comment on the changes to Assassin's shroud that I noticed now. When a target dies, the assassin moves all shrouds to a new target as a free action. I think that the benefits of Death's whisper/twilight hunter should still keep a reason to invoke shrouds on a target before it dies. For example, the feat they made for the assassin requires at least 2 shrouds  built up and only moves 2 of those to a target within 5 squares. I think this is a little too weak, imo. However, requiring 2 shrouds and then only moving 2 to a target within a larger distance, say 10 or 20 squares would be  better than getting to keep all of their shrouds. The main reason is that extra damage feature of +8/+12/+16 is so big that I'd almost say why ever bother to invoke if you lose that bonus?

Don't worry about overwhelming me, I love all this feedback. Gives me something to do. Maybe I'll scale it down to just moving up to two shrouds upon target death, but I think I'll keep the rest the same.

Another comment, I'm not sure if it should require a feat or not to do something like this. The rogue absolutely NEEDS combat advantage to get his bonus off. This is typically gained through both powers or, more frequently and later on, through feats like Wintertouched or Deadly Draw. I see these are requirements to make your damage bonuses "reliable" and "consistent." With that in mind, it may make sense to require the same from the assassin. It is still a "tax" feat since I can't imagine any assassin NOT taking it, but in the same vein as I can't imagine any rogue NOT taking one of the CA granting feats. I had this argument with the player who's going to playtest the assassin and who thought it should keep the feat tax. I do grant out Expertise and Improved Defenses for free in my home game (at level 4 forexpertise and level 11 for defenses) which may be why. There are less feat taxes with those given out for free.

The problem with a feat tax like that is that for the classes that use a feature like this, especially the ranger, don't use it as their main source of extra damage.

...Maybe make a utility power that allows switching of all shrouds from a target that just died to another target as a free action once per encounter.

The only thing worse than a feat tax for that would be a utility tax. The part where assassins really shone before was their incredible utility powers. Especially Ghost of the Rooftops (still an assassin power, still viable as a choice).

EDIT: Now I'm trying to think of something for the Twilight Hunter that doesn't deal with multi-attacks, but keeps the flavor of starting off slow, and building up momentum for the killing blow. I already discussed an expanded crit range feature that could actually probably work very well. Something along the lines of this: When you invoke your shrouds, add the number of shrouds on the target to the attack roll for the purpose of determining a critical hit. This does not change the attack roll, and you must still hit the target. Maybe that would work?

The problem with that is in offering 17-20 crit ranges in epic where you're doling out 12d6 damage. The phrasing is also difficult to interpret and would mean that it would stack with mastery feats. That's a possible 16-20 crit range with 4 shrouds and a feat..I'm not sure if that's too much or not. I've yet to play in epic where such a thing would come about, so its above my play-experience. I just feel that a feature like that, at heroic, is too strong. Maybe a 19-20 crit range with 2-3 shrouds and an 18-20 c rit range with 3-4 shrouds. Unfortunately, this doesn't encourage invoking your shrouds at all. If anything, combined with the new assassin article feat that keeps shrouds on a crit, it encourages the assassin to keep its shrouds on target at all times.

Crit bonuses tend to make appearances in paragon and epic tiers so I think that makes best sense as a paragon path for the twilight hunter. Perhaps something that gives a small bonus per shroud (+1 per shroud, per tier) and then on top of this a boost for invoking the shrouds (no idea what though). This would enhance DPR during shroud build up but also encourage using those shrouds.

Critical increasing will also encourage high crit weapons like axes over heavy blades. Not a bad or good thing, just how it is.

Edit: You know, more than anything we do need a bit of testing on some of these ideas. I'll bite. Let me run the next few fights of my game with the assassin using a guild training that gains a bonus to crit range based on shrouds more or less exactly what you put there. When shrouds are invoked, the assassin can score a critical on a range of 19-20, 18-20, 17-20, 16-20 depending on how many shrouds are on the target.

I'll be using the 1d6/2d6/3d6 scaling, the players are currently only level 4 so it doesn't matter much. I'm going to keep shrouds at only being able to move up to 2 to a new target when the old target dies and make it a feat tax since I refund so many other feats to the players (we'll see how that works out). The assassin's other two feats will be Superior implement (accurate ki focus) and "lethal shroud" which normally boosts shroud damage to 1d8's + some random points, but in this case just boosts it to 1d8's like all the others.

Edit: Er...what am I saying? Lets see how broken or not broken the idea is. I'll run it with the feat that keeps shrouds when you crit...I'm not sure if this will either be brilliant or terrible.

Huh. I wasn't aware of that feat. I don't have DDI, and I can't find the latest one for download yet, so I don't know about everything new, just what I've heard on the forums. Originally the idea was for a Twilight Hunter paragon path, and I think I'll just leave it there. I might take off the "melee weapon in each hand" restriction and try to think of a different at-will for the Twilight Hunter. Make them be more like the guy that bursts out of the shadows and kills his target as fast as possible with a big weapon. I like the idea of a fullblade wielding assassin too.

Ok, I modified the twilight hunter at-will and encounter power, as well as replaced the daily, to reflect the change to the multi-attack style I'm trying to give it. Now it makes implement and weapon attacks in the same power. Hopefully I can use this to make it feel unique compared to the ranger. I've also updated the pdf. Huzzah.

Boy, it's been a while. About a week, if I remember right. Anywho, mostly just saying this to let you peoples know that I haven't given up on this. I've just been in California, camping on the beach, and as such haven't had internet access the whole frikkin week. Had a blast in California, although I missed my weekly D&D game, which depresses me. Whatever. Expect more powers in the next couple of days. End of line.

Hey fellow assassins, what's up? I've just been toying with some ideas in my head for some neat little tricks for the assassin, and I just want to hear a little feedback.

First: Shadow Sheathe
I came up with this as a way to explain how an assassin could infiltrate an establishment looking fairly civiliany, even though he's carrying a fullblade. What it lets the assassin do is hide his weapon(s) in the same way that Shadow Coffin works for the executioner. He stores the weapon in a small mundane object, and he can release the weapon through a small bit of concentration, or by destroying the mundane object.

Second: Shadow Disguise
This idea just kind of popped into my head just now. It would let the assassin disguise himself by creating an illusory disguise. Bonus to bluff checks kind of thing. Just spitballing here.

So, what do you guys think? Do these have a place anywhere for the assassin? Maybe as utility powers? Paragon path features? Also, if you guys have any ideas for the assassin, I'd love to hear them. Even power suggestions would be great. 

Ok, I'm not sure what happened, but after several failed attempts at updating the level 3 encounter powers with shoddy internet, it appears that the forums ATE the first page. I don't know what to make of this, and it quite frankly kinda pisses me off. Oh well, what ya gonna do?

I took out Shadow Armor, and gave it a new feature, Death Strike, because I feel that all assassin's should be able to pull off an instant kill, no matter how anti-instant kill 4th edition is. If there's any class that should be able to roll a die and say, "It dies," it should be the assassin. I'm also trying to redo the Twilight Hunter benefit so it doesn't just feel like a melee version of the Death's Whisper benefit. Any original suggestions for extra damage features would be great. I toyed with using combat advantage, but I don't want this to feel like a rogue. I also thought of extra damage for having concealment, or maybe being invisible, but I'm not sure. Any suggestions would be great. Thanks in advance.

EDIT: I also gave Twilight Hunters different powers. Basically trying to do the opposite of a defender with them, i.e. if you aren't my target, stay away from me or suffer the consequences. Also, I redid the Needle's Poison benefit to be easier to read.

GRAND UPDATE!

Today, I updated many parts of the assassin. Here's what happened.

• Level 3 Encounter Powers
• Most of the level 5 Daily Powers. I'm stuck on the last one, and any help that can be offered would be very appreciated.
• A whole three feats! Lethal Shrouds is just a modification of the existing one, for obvious reasons. Versatile Training I think is great for flavor reasons, should you want to go down that path. Shrouds of Agony just adds more damage to your shrouds for more spiky goodness.
• Changed the name of Venom Strike to Envenom. Truthfully, I changed that a long time ago, just never got around to updating this thread. I think Envenom makes just a bit more sense than Venom Strike.

Now my assassin is almost fully playable halfway through heroic tier. Woo! I'll try and update the pdf when I can, but it's gonna take quite a bit of tinkering with the removal of Shadow Armor, and the addition of Death Strike.

Radiant darkness? it looks good (understandable I mean). though ... Ranged 15? isn't that very uncommon?

The class itself? as DM I woudn't allow death strike. a higher crit range is something special; but the assassin starts of with a better version of it at lvl 1? (default he'll attack enemies with at least one shroud, so he'll always have 19-20 crit; even more goodies with multiple shrouds (I mean 16 to 20? that's nearly half his hits!) )

hmmm, Envenom needs a rewrite: can it be cummulative with itself? (I'm thinking how they've rewritten battlerager fighter for cummulative temp hp).
I'dd make of it 'increase the ongoing damage by 5' clean and simple

I dunno where I came up with the Ranged 15. It was late.

Keep in mind that Death Strike only triggers when you invoke your shrouds, and to get a 16-20 crit range you've already forgone 3 rounds of shroud damage. That's three turns of dealing minimal damage to save up for the epic spike damage and hope you get a crit. If you miss, you only get the damage from three of your shrouds. Also, keep in mind that this is all still very experimental, and I know it needs playtesting. If I need to I could make it scale. I like the idea of expanded crit range as a class feature because, A)I don't think it's been done before (admittedly with good reason), and B) it really accentuates the feel that the assassin is a burst/nova/spike damage oriented class without sucking up all of its encounter powers into one, unrecoverable power. My Executioner is awesome, and the fact that my DM houseruled that crits are double max damage makes his crits all the more painful. Took out that flippin' Mitsubishi Zero with one hit. With a bow and arrow. But that's unrelated. Besides, crits stop being good on their own in paragon. Part of the reason I think that bloodiron weapons, high crit weapons, and all those crazy awesome things-happen-when-you-crit feats exist. Otherwise crits just stop being too great after heroic. 

Yes it can be cumulative with itself, but remember, one save ends it all. On top of that, I've tried that wording and people got confused. If there was a way I could write it so everyone could understand super easily with no confusion, that would be the dream.

With all that being said, thank you for the feedback.

P.S. I love your block builder, it's helped me a ton. 

Alright, I'm here to say that I've added some new at-wills for the Bleak Disciple and Night Stalker assassins, so they don't feel quite as left out. Also, I'm gonna have the level 7 encounter powers and level 9 daily powers done before I go to bed tonight, so that means my assassin will be fully playable through heroic, if you don't care about taking the currently available utility powers. Woohoo!

If anyone has any ideas for some assassin utility powers, it would be awesome if you would post them here. So far I've come up with a lot of this all on my lonesome and I'm starting to run out of steam. 

Aug 11, 2011 -- 9:55AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

Keep in mind that Death Strike only triggers when you invoke your shrouds, and to get a 16-20 crit range you've already forgone 3 rounds of shroud damage.

while true; that's not unrealisitc.
(a) supprize round shroud on the BBEG
(b) spend a turn on minions & shroud on BBEG
(c) second wind or superiour positioning & shroud on BBEG
(d) shroud on the BBEG, and unleash hell on the BBEG

As shrouwds create miss damage one less then the number of shrouwds, it already creates the will to add multiple shrouwds before attacking

I don't think it's been done before (admittedly with good reason)

Mathematically, crit range +1 is equivalent with +1 attack.

• [damage per turn] = [chance on non crit hit]*[hit damage] + [chance on crit hit]*[average damage]
  
  if we assume crit damage is twice as strong as hit damage (additional crit dice compensating for non-multiplying values)
• [damage per turn] = [chance on non crit hit]*[hit damage] + [chance on crit hit]*2*[hit damage]
  
  
  • if attack raises with 1,
    [chance on crit hit] remains the same (usually 1 in 20),
    [chance on non crit hit] increases by 1/20;
    result: [damage per turn] increases by (1/20) * [hit damage]
  • if crit range raises with 1
    [chance on crit hit] increases by 1/20,
    [chance on non crit hit] is reduced by 1/20; (the '19' is now no longer a non crit hit)
    result: [damage per turn] decreases by (1/20) * [hit damage] but increases by 2 * (1/20) * [hit damage]; which is the same as attack+1

Thinking about it, it not only becomes better when you have additional stuff on crits, but also when you do damage on a miss (like, multiple shrouwds): A +1 attack decreases the miss chance, while +1 crit range does not

Besides, crits stop being good on their own in paragon.

that's the first I hear of it.
While static multiplier increase by, what 2 to 4  (increase of magic, increase of feat, increase of stat, perhaps secondairy stat) per 5 levels, this is offsetted by the additional crit die;

Yes it can be cumulative with itself, but remember, one save ends it all.

not as written.

Suppose a monster has O5 fire, and O5 venom;
if it gets hit with fire , is now has O5 fire O5 fire O5 venom O 5 venom. (requiring 4 saves to get in the clear)

P.S. I love your block builder, it's helped me a ton. 

glad to help

Aug 12, 2011 -- 3:08AM, Qube wrote:

while true; that's not unrealisitc.
(a) supprize round shroud on the BBEG
(b) spend a turn on minions & shroud on BBEG
(c) second wind or superiour positioning & shroud on BBEG
(d) shroud on the BBEG, and unleash hell on the BBEG

You sir, just outlined EXACTLY how I imagined this would play.

Mathematically, crit range +1 is equivalent with +1 attack.

• [damage per turn] = [chance on non crit hit]*[hit damage] + [chance on crit hit]*[average damage]
  
  if we assume crit damage is twice as strong as hit damage (additional crit dice compensating for non-multiplying values)
• [damage per turn] = [chance on non crit hit]*[hit damage] + [chance on crit hit]*2*[hit damage]
  
  
  • if attack raises with 1,
    [chance on crit hit] remains the same (usually 1 in 20),
    [chance on non crit hit] increases by 1/20;
    result: [damage per turn] increases by (1/20) * [hit damage]
  • if crit range raises with 1
    [chance on crit hit] increases by 1/20,
    [chance on non crit hit] is reduced by 1/20; (the '19' is now no longer a non crit hit)
    result: [damage per turn] decreases by (1/20) * [hit damage] but increases by 2 * (1/20) * [hit damage]; which is the same as attack+1

Thinking about it, it not only becomes better when you have additional stuff on crits, but also when you do damage on a miss (like, multiple shrouwds): A +1 attack decreases the miss chance, while +1 crit range does not

Your numbers mean nothing to me. I'm not being condescending, it's just that, in my experience, statistics mean nothing to the individual.

Besides, crits stop being good on their own in paragon.

that's the first I hear of it.

Ok, not being good isn't what I meant, and my mind betrayed me and let me post that. They stop being absolutely freaking amazing to the point of ZOMG LOLZ! I just one-shotted the solo! They actually seem rather mundane in paragon, when all they're doing are damage, although their effect on damage is still awesome. Crits get much more ridiculous in epic, when nifty little feats and items like font of radiance come in. My point is, without all those fancy items/feats, crits are just max damage. Yay.

Suppose a monster has O5 fire, and O5 venom;
if it gets hit with fire , is now has O5 fire (needs to save twice before it ends (it has O5 fire twice, but the damage doesn't stack)) O5 venom O 5 venom.

If the monster has O5 fire and O5 poison. If a Needle's Poison assassin hit this monster with envenom the monster would now have O5 fire, O5 poison, and O5 untyped. The next time he hits with envenom it has O5 fire, O5 poison, O10 untyped. Does that make sense? The wording on that feature has been giving me trouble from the start. I think I'll specify that when he deals ongoing damage, if it's the same type as any ongoing damage that the target may have they stack. If you have any suggestions on how to better word the power/feature I'd love to hear it.

Aug 12, 2011 -- 3:38AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

Ok, not being good isn't what I meant, and my mind betrayed me and let me post that. They stop being absolutely freaking amazing to the point of ZOMG LOLZ! I just one-shotted the solo!

odd ... you're proving my point: if crits can one-shot the solo, no way in heck you're supposed to have a crit range of 16-20: How do you justify a one-in-four chance to just ruin the encounter?

Aug 12, 2011 -- 3:38AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

My point is, without all those fancy items/feats, crits are just max damage. Yay.

I wouldn't call a +1 magic weapon 'fancy' ...

If the monster has O5 fire and O5 poison. If a Needle's Poison assassin hit this monster with envenom the monster would now have O5 fire, O5 poison, and O5 untyped.  The next time he hits with envenom it has O5 fire, O5 poison, O10 untyped.

not as you've written it.

"When you deal ongoing damage, it  stacks with any ongoing damage the target already has, if any."

Reading this, I'dd say you mean: when an enemy has O5 fire, and I deal O5 fire, that means he now takes 10 fire damage per turn.

Since envenom also deals O5; when an enemy has O5 fire and O5 untyped (from a previous attack); an O5 fire attack results into O5 fire, O5 fire, O5 untyped, O5 untyped; resulting into 20 damage.

If you have any suggestions on how to better word the power/feature I'd love to hear it.

I'dd make it typed (ex. poison); "The triggering attack deals ongoing 5 poison damage (save ends). if the target already has ongoing poison damage, increase that damage by 5 instead."

It's not the same, but it doesn't add a new therm/mechanism to it (stacking ongoing damage)

odd ... you're proving my point: if crits can one-shot the solo, no way in heck you're supposed to have a crit range of 16-20: How do you justify a one-in-four chance to just ruin the encounter?

Let it be known that I pulled that scenario out of my butt. Also let it be known that this is still experimental and in need of balancing. Yes, a 16-20 crit chance is huge, and should probably be reserved for epic, which is where it'll probably end up, right now I just need to find a more elegant way of making it scale than "At level 1 you get this crit range, etc."

I wouldn't call a +1 magic weapon 'fancy' ...

Neither would I. When I said fancy magic items I was talking about things like vorpal, bloodiron, even vicious weapons. And any other extremely crit enhancing weapons I may have missed. Oh, don't forget about war rings and flame bracers. See all these things that activate on crits? It gets even more fun at epic, especially for divine classes. Font of radiance plus the feat that gives vulnerable 10 radiant on a crit, plus the feat that basically says "if you're vulnerable to radiant, you're vulnerable to everything I can hit you with." That's some nasty crit action right there.

Since envenom also deals O5; when an enemy has O5 fire and O5 untyped (from a previous attack); an O5 fire attack results into O5 fire, O5 fire, O5 untyped, O5 untyped; resulting into 20 damage.

I wasn't aware there was a difference between stacking and increasing ongoing damage. And I will not under any circumstances make envenom inflict poison damage. Sorry if that came across as mean, but there are just so many things that are immune/resistant to poison that it would severly gimp that build to do so.

I really should be working right now, so I'm going to make this quick, but...

Overall, I love what you've been doing here.  I stumbled on this earlier this week, and it's some very good work that does a lot for an otherwise severely underperforming class.  So want to point that out.  A few things I might disagree with, and I'm hoping to spend some time this evening reading through the new powers you posted yesterday.  All that said, regarding your last post, I've got a quick question.

Aug 12, 2011 -- 4:59AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

And I will not under any circumstances make envenom inflict poison damage. Sorry if that came across as mean, but there are just so many things that are immune/resistant to poison that it would severly gimp that build to do so.

Not that I'm fond of feat taxes here, but are there any assassin builds that rely on poison and don't take Venom Hand Master?  (Also, as a sidenote, I can completely understand how Qube is reading it.  It's not how I read the power initially - I think I mentally filled in the gaps to make it work the way you obviously intended - but I think strictly from RAW, he's made a reasonable point.)

Aug 12, 2011 -- 12:22PM, Terraism wrote:

Not that I'm fond of feat taxes here, but are there any assassin builds that rely on poison and don't take Venom Hand Master?  (Also, as a sidenote, I can completely understand how Qube is reading it.  It's not how I read the power initially - I think I mentally filled in the gaps to make it work the way you obviously intended - but I think strictly from RAW, he's made a reasonable point.)

Wow. Once again I'm proven wrong by my unthinking brain. In that case it might actually make it stronger to make it poison type. Still, the assassin does seem rather feat-starved to me, although, my version might be less so. I'll have to tackle the wording on envenom some other time, because I have a few things to do around the house, but I'll see what I can do. Also, I've finished all the encounter powers, I just have yet to transform them into power-block form for the forums. I figured that I'd finish the level 9 dailies first and then get them all posted in one fell swoop. ONWARD!

Now that I've just about finished the attack powers for heroic, I've started to think up some paragon path ideas. Then I realized. I don't HAVE any ideas. So, suggestions would be great to hear, I'll see if I can't get some fancy new paragon paths for the assassin up, that (hopefully) don't suck. I guess we still have soul thief, but still, come on. We all know that a lot of the reason assassins sucked outside of heroic is because of crappy power selection and nothing-too-special paragon paths. Not to mention Assassin's Shroud's weird scaling. Wouldn't it have just been easier to say 1/2/3d6?

Let it be known that I pulled that scenario out of my butt.

but it is anecdotical evidence. If you disregard general evidence (which i gave with statistics), you might want to rake that in account. because ... well, what else is there?

I wouldn't call a +1 magic weapon 'fancy' ...

Neither would I

point is, crits are almost never just max damage.

I wasn't aware there was a difference between stacking and increasing ongoing damage

according to the rules ongoing damage of the same type doesn't stack.

And I will not under any circumstances make envenom inflict poison damage.

then envenom is a bad name.

Its like making a grappler who doesn't grapple but dual sword because grapple sucks. the reason might be true, but that doesn't make it good

Then I realized. I don't HAVE any ideas

usuall WotC augements prev powers.

point is, crits are almost never just max damage.

Point taken.

according to the rules ongoing damage of the same type doesn't stack.

Also according to the rules, specific beats general.

then envenom is a bad name.

Not really. While the name might make you think of poison in the conventional sense, it's not. Poison damage implies a physical substance that causes the body damage, something that can either A) be counteracted, or B) removed. I have not once in this game seen anything that inflicts poison damage that doesn't have a direct link to a physical substance of the sort (spider venom, poisoned dagger, etc.). The damage envenom inflicts is not from a physical substance, but what is essentially pure shadow. I have a small backstory for the Needle's Poison guild founders in the pdf (which needs a lot of updating, to fit with current features). Nothing about it is physical. If you want you can think about it as if shadows are latching onto the body and killing it. In real life, if a doctor were to look at a person suffering from this "poison," nothing at all would appear wrong with their body. Except for the fact that they'd be dying, of course.

Now a change of topic. I want to make a feature for a paragon path or epic destiny (most likely epic destiny, given the power involved), that retains the old Death Attack ability of the 3.5 Assassin, which is, quite literally, wait three rounds and then kill your target. Ok, it's a little more complicated than that, but that was the essence of it. I'm not quite sure how to implement it, but I feel confident that the helpless condition will be involved, probably in the form of an encounter power.

Aug 13, 2011 -- 11:44AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

according to the rules ongoing damage of the same type doesn't stack.

Also according to the rules, specific beats general.

true, but have you considered all possible side effects of overriding a general rule?

Aug 13, 2011 -- 11:44AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

I have not once in this game seen anything that inflicts poison damage  that doesn't have a direct link to a physical substance of the sort  (spider venom, poisoned dagger, etc.).

infernal moon curse? (fav spell of one of my players)

either way just as you link poison with physical, you can't deny the link between envenom and poison. Heck, they are almost synonyms.

Aug 13, 2011 -- 11:44AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

Needle's Poison  ... Nothing about it is physical.

then ... why (a) Needle and (b) Poison if its a non physical non poison?

but OK, how 'bout necrotic?

 If you want you can think about it as if shadows are latching onto the body and killing it. In real life, if a doctor were to look at a person suffering from this "poison," nothing at all would appear wrong with their body. Except for the fact that they'd be dying, of course.

Aug 13, 2011 -- 11:44AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

I'm not quite sure how to implement it, but I feel confident that the helpless condition will be involved, probably in the form of an encounter power.

encounter powers usually last only a turn ... and helpless is one of the strongest status effects ... will be a though to crack

true, but have you considered all possible side effects of overriding a general rule?

Not really, but ongoing damage is only guaranteed for one turn. After that it's about a 50% chance, give or take. Besides, just about every class overrides general rules in some way. Powers that can be used as basic attacks or on a charge, the avenger's oath of enmity. As I understand it, that's one of the fundamental aspects of the game.

then ... why (a) Needle and (b) Poison if its a non physical non poison?

When I said nothing about it is physical, I meant the poison itself, not the what the name of the guild seems to imply. I don't pretend to know the thought process of renegade Revenants.

but OK, how 'bout necrotic?

Huh. That does make thematic sense. Or, how about using both. That way they'd have to have resistance to both necrotic and poison to get it, and, as Terraism mentioned earlier, a poison user would just likely pick up venom hand master. I am rather opposed to feat taxes, especially ones that should blatantly have been part of the feature itself. But, I concede. Poison and necrotic damage.

encounter powers usually last only a turn ... and helpless is one of the strongest status effects ... will be a though to crack

I realize all of this, but it does provide the assassin with one particularly incredible nova per encounter, which it should generally be able to do. And I've decided, this is gonna be tied to an epic destiny, which is gonna be its schtick. There are a few powers that already give out the unconcious condition, like a certain rogue power that many an assassin I know (including myself) multiclassed to get.

Finally got around to putting up the level 7 encounter powers. Read 'em and tell me what you think. That is all.

EDIT: Also reworded Needle's Poison benefit. Again. Hopefully I've got it this time and I won't have to reword it again. 

Aug 13, 2011 -- 2:09PM, Kronoshifter wrote:

true, but have you considered all possible side effects of overriding a general rule?

Not really, but ongoing damage is only guaranteed for one turn. After that it's about a 50% chance, give or take. Besides, just about every class overrides general rules in some way. Powers that can be used as basic attacks or on a charge, the avenger's oath of enmity. As I understand it, that's one of the fundamental aspects of the game.

have I claimed otherwise? But IIRC the DMG says that you need to wonder if a rule-override is actually nececairy ...

oh, btw, average damage for a ongoing damage is 1.8 times the value. (unless the target gets bonusses/penalties/resistance/vulnerabilities*)

* which become serious broken if ongoing stacks ... (multiple times vulnerability application make O5 x3 with Vul10 = 45 damage/turn)

edit: looks good now

I don't pretend to know the thought process of renegade Revenants.

didn't you invent Needle's Poison? if you don't know, who will?

Ok, so you're saying that Needle's Poison benefit is ok now? Cause that's how I intended it to work. And, (as noted in the first post) my DM came up with the name. I thought it worked well for an assassin's guild that focused on poisoning, or at least the way I imagine it. I grew up on final fantasy, so when I think of poison, I think of ongoing damage.

Aug 14, 2011 -- 3:17PM, Kronoshifter wrote:

Ok, so you're saying that Needle's Poison benefit is ok now? Cause that's how I intended it to work.

yep

or at least the way I imagine it. I grew up on final fantasy, so when I think of poison, I think of ongoing damage.

or Diablo, or ... Both fire and poison are in many games ongoing.

One paragon path done, 3-4 more to go. Booyah.

Inexorable shroud only lets you move 2 shrouds if your target dies, not 4, and you can only move shrouds if you have at least 2.  So you aren't just baking it in you are making it more powerful as well.

Personally I think a complete rework isn't really needed.  Consider reading Inexorable Shroud a different, more loose, way and that alone does wonders for the class (even still requiring it to be taken as a feat):
Let it move 2 shrouds even if you invoked your shrouds to kill the creature.

Now you are an assassin.  You have a reason to stack your shrouds and you have a vested interest in getting a killing blow as that just got you two free dice of damage on the next monster.  You will tend to invoke at 2 then if it dies transfer and next turn add one and invoke at 3 that turn.

One thing also to note about assassin is that their at wills are actually quite strong.  One does +1 per shroud which isn't bad, but the other that does +1 per creature next to the target is potentially huge damage if your party is melee heavy or your DM likes to use minions or other monster swarms rather than solitary dragon-type monster.

The two guilds are lackluster but thats the case with other strikers as well (I'm looking at you Avenger).

Inexorable shroud only lets you move 2 shrouds if your target dies, not 4, and you can only move shrouds if you have at least 2.  So you aren't just baking it in you are making it more powerful as well.

Duly noted. But I don't remember saying exactly that I baked in Inexorable Shroud. I remember saying that shrouds should be transferable on death.

Personally I think a complete rework isn't really needed.  Consider reading Inexorable Shroud a different, more loose, way and that alone does wonders for the class (even still requiring it to be taken as a feat):
Let it move 2 shrouds even if you invoked your shrouds to kill the creature.

I disagree. Your suggestion is a decent idea, but Assassin's Shroud did need a lot of work to be comparable with other striker features. I wouldn't mind completely replacing Assassin's Shroud, if we could come up with something that would work better, I would do it.

One thing also to note about assassin is that their at wills are actually quite strong.  One does +1 per shroud which isn't bad, but the other that does +1 per creature next to the target is potentially huge damage if your party is melee heavy or your DM likes to use minions or other monster swarms rather than solitary dragon-type monster.

You think Leaping Shade is good? Wow. That's a first. Never heard that before. Shadow Storm is decent, but the bonus is much more situational than anything else. And what if your DM doesn't like minions, or just loves to throw dragons (or Cthulhu) at you? You get a +16 bonus AT MOST and you most likely won't have that many party members to make it super reliable.

The two guilds are lackluster but thats the case with other strikers as well (I'm looking at you Avenger).

Which is exactly why new ones were needed. The only reliable censure that the avenger got was the censure of unity.

Aug 20, 2011 -- 9:27AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

One thing also to note about assassin is that their at wills are actually quite strong.  One does +1 per shroud which isn't bad, but the other that does +1 per creature next to the target is potentially huge damage if your party is melee heavy or your DM likes to use minions or other monster swarms rather than solitary dragon-type monster.

You think Leaping Shade is good? Wow. That's a first. Never heard that before. Shadow Storm is decent, but the bonus is much more situational than anything else. And what if your DM doesn't like minions, or just loves to throw dragons (or Cthulhu) at you? You get a +16 bonus AT MOST and you most likely won't have that many party members to make it super reliable.

some notes:

• 16? tarrasque is a 1-on-1 square? in 3rd it was about the size of an x-box.
• saying that a power is underpowered if a DM does(n't) do something is ... applicable for any power. Lets see how good area or splash spells against solo's ... or element X if the DM likes resist X creatures
  Shadow storm seems a solid power for a assassin geared up to fight groups, especially if he teams up with the defender
  1 defender, 1 assassin, 1 adj enemy = +3 (or +6) bonus, or more depending on situation. This looks equivalent to 'add secondairy stat' powers

Aug 20, 2011 -- 9:27AM, Kronoshifter wrote:

The two guilds are lackluster but thats the case with other strikers as well (I'm looking at you Avenger).

Which is exactly why new ones were needed. The only reliable censure that the avenger got was the censure of unity.

Avenger doesnt need a bonus damage censure...you're missing the entire balance of the class.  Avengers crit almost twice as often as any other class and virtually always hit.  Their bonus damage is consistency and higher crit rate. 

On my avenger it's a rare play night where I miss a single time the entire night...and I dont even have expertise so there is another part of my "bonus damage", saving a feat.  Additionally I never have to bother trying to get CA; I don't really need it; so that saves lots of moves and potentially feats/utilities.  On the rare time I miss my elven reroll saves it.  The other strikers are often bemoaning how their cool encounter power just wiffed and there is nothing they can do short of a daily item (or my channel divinity) to save the attack.

Part of assassin's balance is that their at will attacks naturally do more damage.  One +1 per shroud, another +1 per adjacent person.  If you can average +3 that's basically a 1d6 added to all of your at will attacks and that's not even including night stalker's bonus damage.  They also have shadow step which virtually guarantees combat advantage.  This is another reason they don't have as high of a guild-bonus-damage effect.  They can always get CA so they will always hit a little more reliably.

Aug 20, 2011 -- 3:16PM, Qube wrote:

Shadow storm seems a solid power for a assassin geared up to fight groups, especially if he teams up with the defender
1 defender, 1 assassin, 1 adj enemy = +3 (or +6) bonus, or more depending on situation. This looks equivalent to 'add secondairy stat' powers

It depends on your party.  One of my games has all melee fighters so it's perfect even against a solo creature.  If you have all ranged attackers, sure, it's pretty crap.

All you need to do is average +3 though since +3 is basically 1d6 (+3.5 but still).  Then you are right where a rogue is at +2d6 a round (1 shroud, +3 else) and you dont have to worry about getting CA (though you always can with shadow step).  And if you can get another +3 to 6 from nightstalker even better.

Just a thought for shrouds, I think the problem with the mechanic is two fold, you want something that gives you incentive to stack shrouds, I think the problem with it is that the only benefit you get is by expending the shrouds.   Aim to have the shrouds be something that increases the longer an assassin fights a particular target.  Make them provide a small bonus to each hit and if you choose to expend them a large bonus.  Provide a built in mechanic where if you kill a monster by blowing your shrouds you can shift more shrouds than if a ally kills the monster to a new enemy target, or something along those lines. 

So:
Each shroud on a target provides an single point of damage bonus on attacks/powers against the target. 
If you expend all your shrouds you gain 1d6 damage for the first two, and 1d8 damage for the second two.   This gives incentive to keep your shrouds around for that one big strike that puts down the critter. 

shroud manipulation:  If a monster dies without expending shrouds you can transfer one of them to a new target.   If you put down the monster by expending all your shrouds on a target you can immediately create two on a target monster.  This provides incentive for that big "EXECUTE" strike that requires timing on the part of the player.  In the case of either of these you expend your per round at-will shroud creation to transfer.   

I also personally suggest that teleportation powers include shroud creation, immediately after you teleport to a new target you can choose to throw a shroud on that new target which incentivizes your teleportation to increase damage, this is seperate from the transfer/create. 

In this way you defeat the problem with shrouds being something you want to hold off on but causes a hit to dpr (a stacking +1/2/3 damage per shroud) while the same time you still get the joy of that one big hit (expend for 1d6/1d6/1d8/1d8). 

example:
You start the combat by stacking, you swing in for several turns, the critter becomes bloodied, you think about it and figure that the next big attack you plant into this monster will slaughter it, so you plant your attack, putting down the critter, you transfer two shrouds to your new target.   If you are adjacent to an enemy or a friend you can then spend your move to shadowstep to the new target giving a third shroud.  On your next turn you use your at-will shroud creation mechanic to make a 4th shroud.  Thus you achieved a full stack a single turn after, you can choose to immediately pop that stack for a big hit and gain the benefits for it (and have to spend several rounds working up a new stack of 4) or you can enjoy the slight benefit till its time to kill the target and shift to a new one (again transfer 2/1 and teleport for 1).

Should help with the consistency of the mechanic and to be honest it provides a very combo-like feel to the build.  You can use the encounter/daily abilities to add new spice to these mechanics.  Say you are working with a team who you know is gonna finish off the target before your next turn come up.  Provide an encounter ability to teleport to a new target taking your shrouds with you and perform a hit.  Now you control the flow of your shrouds in the combat without it taking 4 rounds to constantly built up that big damage hit with no benefit.

Interestingly this is the idea behind leaping shade, the difference is that you have a base bonus damage mechanic and you improve shroud generation through transfers and interaction.

16? tarrasque is a 1-on-1 square? in 3rd it was about the size of an x-box.

Right, I forgot to account for larger than 1x1 monsters, but the bonus is still rather situational.

Avenger doesnt need a bonus damage censure...you're missing the entire balance of the class.  Avengers crit almost twice as often as any other class and virtually always hit.  Their bonus damage is consistency and higher crit rate.

When did I say they needed one? I only said that they only got one reliable censure. And, for the record, avengers were tied for last place with warlocks until Painful Oath came around. And I believe that was before the assassin too, which has subpar striker damage, officially.

All you need to do is average +3 though since +3 is basically 1d6 (+3.5 but still).  Then you are right where a rogue is at +2d6 a round (1 shroud, +3 else) and you dont have to worry about getting CA (though you always can with shadow step).  And if you can get another +3 to 6 from nightstalker even better.

You forgot about Sly Flourish, which is most likely their at-will of choice, so another +3 to 6, or Brutal Scoundrel bonus, which is also another +3 to 6, but using both at the same time wouldn't really be optimal. That is, of course, unless you rolled for your stats, in which case those numbers can go straight out the window.

Each shroud on a target provides an single point of damage bonus on attacks/powers against the target.  
If you expend all your shrouds you gain 1d6 damage for the first two, and 1d8 damage for the second two.   This gives incentive to keep your shrouds around for that one big strike that puts down the critter.

I briefly toyed with an idea like that, but I decided against it. It just complicates an already complicated feature. This also makes me wonder if you read the first post, because I believe I gave a big enough reason to build up shrouds using Death Strike (which is written in very large letters). I think crits on 16+ would be enough reason to build up shrouds.

I also personally suggest that teleportation powers include shroud creation, immediately after you teleport to a new target you can choose to throw a shroud on that new target which incentivizes your teleportation to increase damage, this is seperate from the transfer/create.

The problem with adding that on all teleports would be that you could then add 2 shrouds per round, given that you're adjacent to an enemy. Which would gimp Death's Whisper assassins and possibly ranged based Needle's Poison assassins as well.

Should help with the consistency of the mechanic and to be honest it provides a very combo-like feel to the build.  You can use the encounter/daily abilities to add new spice to these mechanics.

I do love how much of a combo-like feel that would give, but I don't want to turn the assassin into a god-killing death machine. That position has been filled by the ranger, and that's the coolest thing he can really do. The assassin can teleport at-will from level 1, go insubstantial every encounter, even outside of combat, should your DM let you. The assassin is possibly one of the most stylish classes to play, but people tend to avoid it like the plague when they hear that it doesn't kill very well. I know I did.

In other news, I think I'm going to toss out the shroud mechanic, or at least change it so much as to be something different. I'm going to keep the whole "build up for death" mechanic behind it, but I think I'm gonna change it from targeting an enemy to targeting yourself, something that was suggested earlier on this thread, and on a different thread, and probably on several others. I'll get back to that later.

I did read the first post, I just disliked the "deathstrike" mechanic, I look at critical strikes as jaring mortal wounds, where as the current shroud mechanic adds huge amounts of damage which like other forms of striker bonuses are meant to represent hitting weak points.  I think criticals should be one of those things that everyone gets and some build can enjoy but I don't think any class should play off % based luck.  Also no more confusing than the modifier to a crit chance. 

As for teleports for ranged assassins, nothing would be more pleasing, as you could easily teleport among the shadows of your friends and foes.  The difference is really in how you flavor them, their abilities, and how a good assassin can use them.  While I do like the current ranged assassin build at least from what it appears, it is mostly identical to the current cloaked sniper build for rogues, you can shoot and quickly restealth.  I think giving their at-will a built in teleport would make them even more mobile, similar to a rangers current movement (move shoot move) except you would teleport (shroud), damage, teleport (shroud).  Give them extra shroud creation benefits possibly to off-set the fact that their weapon has smaller dice.  Hard enough for an enemy to protect himself from a shadow, let alone a shadow that darts from position to position in the blink of an eye firing off crossbow bolts, sling bullets or chucking daggers from behind enemies that are already assaulting them. 

Mostly just an idea, take it or leave it.   I do like the idea of having shrouds build upon you as a character but you are still retaining that combo-point like build up into a "finisher" that blows your shrouds.  Plus if you follow through on that process then the idea of transfers and such goes out the window.  Also the idea of shrouds itself, Studying a specific foe to kill him, then moving onto the next also shifts drastically. 

In general though I think most people agree, shroud creation feels slow and sluggish, increasing its speed by about 2 turns (transfer on kill + teleport) gives a kind of flow to shroud use that speeds them up.  Again just a thought.  One modification for bleak disciples... they get con bonus in THP, make it con + number of shrouds.  The change would bring them in line with rogue striker condition yet require assassin's to play differently (backloading the damage for the kill to gain the additional benefit vs a rogue keeping the damage up front with sneak attack damage).

I did read the first post, I just disliked the "deathstrike" mechanic, I look at critical strikes as jaring mortal wounds, where as the current shroud mechanic adds huge amounts of damage which like other forms of striker bonuses are meant to represent hitting weak points.  I think criticals should be one of those things that everyone gets and some build can enjoy but I don't think any class should play off % based luck.  Also no more confusing than the modifier to a crit chance.

Try writing 1d6/1d6/1d8/1d8 into the power, then have it scale. You end up with an absurdly long power with tiny text. It's easier to say, look, I crit a lot easier! Of course, I could just add status effects to the number of charges, (I updated the first post) like slowed with 1 charge, dazed with 2 charges, stunned with 3 charges, and helpless with 4. Obviously, that gives very nice incentive to stack the charges, but nothing really damage oriented until you reach 4 charges.

EDIT: I forgot to mention this earlier, but the fact that you're rolling dice means every class is based on luck. Plus, who else could deal jarring mortal wounds as often as an assassin, who knows where to strike, and how to hit it the hardest? I mean there's the barbarian, but he's essentially just a giant meat-wad with an even bigger weapon.

As for teleports for ranged assassins, nothing would be more pleasing, as you could easily teleport among the shadows of your friends and foes.  The difference is really in how you flavor them, their abilities, and how a good assassin can use them.  While I do like the current ranged assassin build at least from what it appears, it is mostly identical to the current cloaked sniper build for rogues, you can shoot and quickly restealth.  I think giving their at-will a built in teleport would make them even more mobile, similar to a rangers current movement (move shoot move) except you would teleport (shroud), damage, teleport (shroud).  Give them extra shroud creation benefits possibly to off-set the fact that their weapon has smaller dice.  Hard enough for an enemy to protect himself from a shadow, let alone a shadow that darts from position to position in the blink of an eye firing off crossbow bolts, sling bullets or chucking daggers from behind enemies that are already assaulting them.

There's a cloaked sniper build for the rogue? Is that a legitimately official build for it, or is it just a type of build someone named? I don't disagree with a ranged assassin loving teleports, expect more encounter/daily powers for that. What I meant, is that allowing that would somewhat gimp the build because they stay far away from melee combat, which more than likely means no creatures for them to use Shadow Step, which I believe to be the assassin's main mode of teleportation.

Mostly just an idea, take it or leave it.   I do like the idea of having shrouds build upon you as a character but you are still retaining that combo-point like build up into a "finisher" that blows your shrouds.  Plus if you follow through on that process then the idea of transfers and such goes out the window.  Also the idea of shrouds itself, Studying a specific foe to kill him, then moving onto the next also shifts drastically.

Ah, a WoW reference. I never liked the idea of studying a foe before one-shotting him, unless you actually could one-shot him, like in 3.5. Look at the executioner, he doesn't study anything, he just goes in and kills something as fast as possible. I would prefer a way to frontload the assassin's extra striker damage without doing more than charging up the second you see an enemy, whether or not combat has started. Although, that's not a bad idea, if your DM lets you.

Sorta, cloaked sniper is a paragon path name, the correct build name is shadowy rogue, they specialize in ranged combat and shoot & stealth tactics.   Refer to martial powers 2 for ideas.

Ah, right, cunning sneak. I was unaware of that paragon path though. The point is, if I've made the Death's Whisper guild really similar, it was completely by accident.

I've made changes to the guilds. Yet again, play style for the Twilight Hunter is going to change, as I'm having small problems imagining how I want it to play. I imagine them as stalking their prey and jumping from the shadows, delivering a devastating blow and then vanishing again. It makes me think it's gonna end up being a melee version of Death's Whisper. But more, teleporty, I guess. Which means redoing a few powers that I obviously designed for them. Whatever it takes, I guess.

Alright, I came up with a couple of new powers for the Twilight Hunter, namely the at-will and the level 3 encounter power. I've been busy with other stuff lately, so updates may come less often.

Looking at the altered Death Attack, it still looks incredibly potent, though not because of the numbers but because of the "when" on when you invoke it.

You specify that you can choose to release the Death Attack after rolling to hit - great, so you're deciding that they don't waste the damage built up, and there are certainly other striker boosts that work similarly.  HOWEVER, you also get an enlarged crit range when you release it - and since you're releasing it after you've seen the attack roll, you are effectively giving them a choice to just "decide you crit".  Too much, I think. 

Oh my gosh, you're right. In didn't even realize that. I will fix it summarily.

Oh my gosh, you're right. In didn't even realize that. I will fix it summarily.

Oh boy. It's been a while. I've just been real busy with real life stuff, all things considered. Anywho, since I know so many people like these new things I've given the assassin, (or at least I'd like to think people do) I will continue to update this. Hopefully. Oh yeah, I did throw in a new paragon path for needle's poison assassins, although it is lacking powers at the moment. Ok, I did it like two weeks ago. Life's caught up to me.