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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 7:07AM
#1
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Are there any builds that take advantage of the Versatile property of a weapon (where it can be wielded in both one or two hands, and gets +1 damage in two hands)? I'm trying to figure out how to benefit from the Versatile property. For a medium-sized creature, it loks like you will never want to take advantage of this property. Either you are a build using a 1-handed weapon (weapon+shield, two-weapon fighting, etc), and so can safely ignore the property's existence, or you are a build using a 2-handed weapon, in which case you're always better off using the two-handed version of the weapon because it does more damage and potentially has better properties. Wielded 2-handed:
- longsword < greatsword
- bastardsword < fullblade
- battleaxe < greataxe
- waraxe < executioner axe
- craghammer < mordenkrad
- spear < longspear
- mace < morningstar
etc. There are a couple of oddities that have no two-hander version (flails mostly), but I'm not sure if they're ever useful or better than the standard ones above (I don't know much about using the flail weapon group). As far as I can tell, there are no classes or builds in the game that switch off between 1-handed and 2-handed wielding, and so would benefit from the versatile property. The property's only use thus seems to allow Small-sized characters to wield a two-handed weapon, and the extra point of damage is to help them try and keep up with the medium-sized 2-handers (so in theory, a Small character could use a battleaxe and be just about as effective as a Medium character in a greatxe, other support notwithstanding). Does this sound about right? Does anyone else see this as a design flaw or a design hole that could be patched? What builds (if any) could a character switch between a 1-handed and 2-handed grip, and so actually care about the versatile property? Thanks for any feedback 
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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 7:14AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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I have a halfling cleric mc fighter build in my cleric handbook that uses a mace two handed. It doesn't benefit from switching hands, but it is a gets a very good AC boost from the combination of battle clerics lore, small warriors defense, and lost in the crowd.
Some people play swordmages to using long or bastard swords that way since they only need a free hand when not attacking.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 7:14AM
#3
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The only time i can think of that it would be used is with swordmages and brawlers. Since they often have a free hand to switch with.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 7:16AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jan 24, 2004
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if you are a hybrid swordmage that doesn't take swordmage warding for hybrid talent then you could use the long sword as your implement in two hands for the +1 damage
or MC Swordmage. This can give you SMW as a daily power so you could 2h the longsword in the other encounters, although I prefer using a shield instead.
yeah i'd say that's an edge case but it makes for a nice thematic katana wielding swordmage
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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 7:33AM
#5
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Date Joined:
May 11, 2009
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Swordmages and brawlers are primary beneficiaries, yes.
Also, halflings and gnomes where that's the biggest weapon they can get. If you're a small Fighter, you can take the Small Warrior's Defense feat that basically turns a versatile weapon into a heavy shield. Likewise, any small PC can take the Scrappy feat that gives them a +1/tier untyped bonus to damage. It goes a long way toward making, say, a halfling fighter with a longsword the equivalent of a human with a heavy shield and bastard sword for the net cost of 1 feat.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 8:49AM
#6
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Thanks for the replies all. I had mentioned in the OP that I see the benefit for Small creatures--to the point where I think that the property is a work-around for them, and is of little to no benefit to Medium creatures. I guess I'd have to play a Brawler if I wanted to switch between a 2-handed and 1-handed grip. IMO, 4e needs better support for characters that use multiple fighting style. It's too focused on specializing in one thing 
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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 9:03AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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Your other option would be an arena fighter. You could probably come up with something like a bastard sword wielder who uses a second superior heavy thrown weapon (drow long knife, net, etc.) some of the time and still be fairly effective when you wanted to switch to two handed.
Or you could do a tripple headed flail/net build start out with a net power and then drop the net after using it.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 10:18AM
#8
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The property's only use thus seems to allow Small-sized characters to wield a two-handed weapon, and the extra point of damage is to help them try and keep up with the medium-sized 2-handers (so in theory, a Small character could use a battleaxe and be just about as effective as a Medium character in a greatxe, other support notwithstanding).
I thought small creatures didn't get the +1 from wielding a versatile weapon in two hands?
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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 11:37AM
#9
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I thought small creatures didn't get the +1 from wielding a versatile weapon in two hands?
They don't. They're required to wield versatile weapons in two hands, and do not receive a damage bonus for doing so.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 4:23PM
#10
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I've actually been thinking about trying an executioner who twohand wields a Longsword as they have no use for actual great weapons.
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