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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 3:04PM
#1
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Hey all,
I'm rolling a leader for my next game, and I've looked at both of these classes (starting level is 14). The character concepts boil down to a Warforged Artificer and a Longtooth Shifter Runepriest, and I would rather play the Longtooth Shifter Runepriest from an RP point of view. I have some great ideas for him, and I think he would ultimately be a more rich character in a low-technology setting (which is a point against the Warforged in and of itself).
However, I've been really struggling to build a comparable leader to the Artificer, and I'm just totally coming up short. The Artificer's ability to prevent damage, buff and debuff just seems so superior in every respect. I've even paragoned him into Lyrander Wind-Rider, to take advantage of an insane additional amount of damage to his thunder-based abilities and the shifting powers.
My Artificer's at-will is Ranged 5, hits for 1d8+15 damage, strikes an NAD, shifts the enemy 1 square - oh, and grants a -5 to all damage that monster does AND grants a +5 damage to all allies adjacant to the target as well (via Master Wand). Also, with the White Lotus powers availible to Artificers due to their arcane nature, I have a very, very powerful "anti-mark" that, essnetially deals 7 damage, and lets me attack for a potential 1d8+15 damage if my chosen target has the nerve to try and attack me.
Meanwhile, the best I can do for an At-Will on the Runepriest is 1d12+7 damage, from melee ranged with a Fullblade, strikes AC, and ... grants +4 to damage to all allies. The best I can get from PrCs seems to be +1 damage. No other support seems to be availible.
Considering this is the attack I'll be using 50% of the time, at least... the disparity here just ridiculous. I'm just not seeing any PrCs or combos that grant the "oh wow" factor of the Artificer to the Runepriest.
As for healing potential, my god... the Artificer is a beast. I don't even think I need to get into just how much healing he can do. Forget the dailies that let me used ranged Heal checks on people, the feats that let me clone my preventative damage abilities (yeah, pick a second target - he gets the temporary hps too), and the Shared Valor armor which gives me half the temporary hit points I give others. The only Heroic/Availible Paragon tiered heal Runepriests seem to have is Shield of Sacrifice. Don't get me wrong, it's great, but where's the syngery that makes it ridiculously good? Where's the feat support that take an already great power and make it sheer battle changing? I'm just not seeing these combos.
Can someone help me out here? I've looked over the wikis exhaustively, but I'm hoping I missed something. Thanks.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 3:32PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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Runepriest can be pretty buff (don't underestimate the value of things like a constant +1 to hit on anything standing next to you, or PPs like Master of the Forge, in the right party) but they do tend to be more party-dependent. Build a party around them, they can be pretty tight, but Artificers I think are more flexible WRT party makeup.
That being said, neither of them will serve you poorly. Similarly, looking purely at at-wills will limit you fairly significantly. Runepriests get some solid encounters, where artificers have occasional fairly weak levels.
Not to mention the fact that Runepriests do get some very nice PPs. I particularly like Hammer of Vengeance for off-striking like nobody's business.
And Runepriests are very role-flexible. They're off-defenders one moment, off-strikers the next.
Neither is top-tier as a leader though.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 3:37PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2009
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Reading your post doesn't seem like anything so much as a cry for support for the Runepriest class. You're with good company in that regard: These boards love the Runepriest class for the most part, and would *drink up* any support they got.
That said, it's a little unfair to compare your Artificer to your Runepriest. The runepriest doesn't seem to have any PP associated with him, like you obviously have with the Artificer. The artificer you have statted out like a ranged striker, while the Runepriest you have conspicuously left vanilla and blank. This is furthermore alarming, since you seem to be comparing the static damage modifiers of the two classes, when neither one can be said to have much strength in that regard. The artificer strength is in flexibility and healing, the Runepriest strength is in debuffing and enabling.
The other thing you seem to be omitting is that these two classes perform completely different secondary roles. Runepriests in particular make for amazing frontline secondary defenders and off tanks. The wrathful build is probably the best at manipulating this, with his decent surges, hp, the ability to grab both plate and plate specialization, and the quite powerful Hammer of Vengeance PP. Artificers make strong ranged enablers, summoners, and are especially adept at assisting arcane allies.
That said, I disagree with your vague inferrence that healing utilities are required for a decent leader. That is simply an untrue statement. The Warlord, unarguably the "best" leader in 4E, has few healing utilities even for all the support they have. They get along fine by burning down the enemies quickly through basic attacks and party buffs. The Runepriest does something similar to this, but with a somewhat stronger tendency towards debuffing enemies through his powers.
Honestly, if you have to pick between the two, I would base your choice on what you think you'd enjoy more first, then consider the needs of the party second.
TL;DR: If you have a ton of melee in your group, then consider the Runepriest more thoroughly, maybe stat it out from 1 to 14. If you have fewer melee and some arcane characters in your group, then maybe stick with the Artificer.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 4:20PM
#4
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If it helps, refluff the Warforged race and the Artificer class into something more traditionally arcane and less steampunk; iron golems instead of quasi-robots, runecasters instead of enchanters/artisans, things like that.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But the good name never dies of one who has done well.
Cattle die, kindred die, every man is mortal. But I know one thing that never dies: the glory of the great dead.
- Hávamál
D&D 4th Edition Bard builds: The Dashing Swordsman, The Master of Sound and Illusions, The Warrior Skald
Captain Morality! (No point in not having fun with it. ;-))
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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 4:23PM
#5
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I don't mean for this to come off as a "plea for Runepriest buffs" - the truth is, I haven't done much looking at either class before last week. The combos of the Artificer class are very well detailed, and are unmistakably powerful. It's not that I'm building him as a ranged striker - to do what I did just simply requires 1-2 feats and a Paragon path. I mean, the At-Wills was just one example, but the disrepency between the two is riduclous, unless I'm missing something. In order to off-set it, one would think the Runepriest Encounter/Daily/Utilities would have to be so completely OP vs. an Artificers... but at best, I think we can agree they are at least even. Is there seriously no specific combos that are sorta wowing for a Runepriest. I don't care if the secondary effect is being a surprisingly good striker/defender/controller... but is there something concrete? With Hide Armor + Int, it seems like I could - if I wanted to - build an artificer to be just as durable in melee... but when ranged is such an option for them, why would I want to? I'm no expert on the class, nor have I ever seen it played before... which is why I'm asking, not whining. Not to mention the fact that Runepriests do get some very nice PPs. I particularly like Hammer of Vengeance for off-striking like nobody's business.
I just took a look at that. Okay, this is what I'm talking about - this is very powerful. Unfortunately, it makes it so I have to gimp my Will NAD (I was going Str/Wis... it's gonna be a -5 hit to that. Ouch.) to get the best out of that come level 16, and I also don't like the Con-based secondary powers as much as the Wis-based secondary.
That being said, that certainly is something though.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 8:25PM
#6
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personaly I can see arguments as to why word of diminishment is better then magic weapon.
in order for magic weapon to work you have to be in burst one when it is used, something that only really be done with either a all ranged party or at the start of combat, and if you miss you get nothing.
however a runeprist who is next to his word of diminishment target gives everyone +1 hit regardless of hit or miss, if he hits he inflicts vul 4 all to the target. that is not as much as magic weapon but every can benifit from it. it also stacks with power bonus to damage, unlike magic weapon.
on my wis secondary runepriest with master of the forge PP these are the bonuses I give out each round if I just want to buff damage (at level 12)
first round:
+4 power bonus to all damage (heal)
+4 untyped bonus to weapon damage (actoin point)
+[W] against one target, rangers love this (call of iron)
+1 untyped hit against all adjacent targets (aura)
vul 4 all (word of diminishment)
non weapon attacks = +1 hit,+8 damage
weapon attacks = +1 hit, [W]+12 damage
second round:
+4 power bonus to all damage (heal)
+1 untyped hit against all adjacent targets (aura)
vul 4 all (word of diminishment)
attacks = +1 hit,+8 damage
third round:
+3 power bonus to all damage (flames of purity)
+1 untyped hit against all adjacent targets (aura)
vul 4 all (word of diminishment)
attacks = +1 hit,+7 damage
----
and that is just damage, there are other attacks you can use for survival, the utlity for master of the forge is amazing (minor, melee touch +2 ac if in light armor, +4 if in heavy)
runepriest are amazing versital, whatever the party needs they can do leader wise
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes.
Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 8:28PM
#7
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A crossbow artificer is much better than any runepriest build, mainly due to Shocking Feedback and other immediate action powers. The paragon paths like Spell Commander are much better also. Not to mention Punishing Eye. Other than lacking any good level 1 encounter power, artificers are kind of beasts at heroic tier.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 8:35PM
#8
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I think they are about equal, while the runepriest has no immidates, the runepriest has many awsome encounter powers, being able to tell a creatuer that is -5+adjasant allys to hit is huge, and a zone of +2 to all defences or +2 to AC and resist 5 all to area is good as well.
they do not play the same but they can be just as effective leaders
Insulting someones grammar on a forum is like losing to someone in a drag race and saying they were cheating by having racing stripes.
Not only do the two things not relate to each other (the logic behind the person's position, and their grammar) but you sound like an idiot for saying it (and you should, because its really stupid )
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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 8:52PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2011
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The ability, for one feat, to double the effectiveness of proactve healing, tips the scale to Artificer in a big way imo
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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 8:53PM
#10
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I really like the Rune Shield PP. Which allows Whenever you enter a new rune state, you can enter the rune state of the iron shield instead. While you are in this rune state, each ally gains a +2 bonus to all defenses while adjacent to you. This rune state ends when you move.
And increases to +4 at lvl 16.
This means you can pick the best rider for the power and get into this awesome rune state. Granted you can't move with it on but all that means is swing after you move and you get it back.
This might be a good option if you have a few melee allies. Personally I used it in a lvl 16 VT one shot and it was great. I used a heavy shield and a whip (so I had reach and could whip enemies for another -2 to attack rolls and the reach so I could stay out of the way a bit and give the team room to crowd around me for the +4 def). My damage was terrible but I had a great time and the team loved it.
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