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2 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2011 - 2:10PM
#41
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Date Joined:
Aug 12, 2006
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Lmao, quit trying to optimize the zeroes!!! 
On a second tought it would be nice to see the different performance of a party of completely unrelated zeroes and a party of zeroes that optimize a concept, like radiant mafia. Call it a 0.5 party.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2011 - 2:32PM
#42
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Yeah, depending on what you mean by "build", there's not really a pre-essentials leader build that lags too hard or that caps out at a super-low place. I'd be tempted to go with something that just doesn't have much support going for it. It's also harder with leaders to ignore the rest of the party; an attack-granting leader, for example, can be spectacularly ineffective if there's nobody who can take advantage of what he's handing out. The same optimized lazylord that leads the heroes to trounce encounters left and right might be doing little or nothing for the zeroes. Something like an eagle shaman, for example, is a high-variability leader. (Although you can just build it without many or any powers that care about your allies' attacks and have a basic pretty good shaman.)
Also, did something happen to starlocks and/or feylocks while I wasn't paying attention that the latter is now considered superior? I thought that starlocks were respected-ish, while feylocks were considered to be barely even strikers. I'm not saying that I personally consider one to be better than the other, just that that's not the ordering I thought most people gave them.
Dwarves invented beer so they could toast to their axes. Dwarves invented axes to kill people and take their beer.
"Feel free to claim I said anything you like. How's someone going to call you out on it? Are they going to be all like, 'I know all of the things that Gary said, and that's not one of them?'"
- Gary Gygax
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2 years ago ::
Jul 07, 2011 - 3:21PM
#43
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Date Joined:
Mar 12, 2011
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while runepriests aren't terrible, it should be noted that they're handily weaker than other leaders as healers until level 6 at the very earliest. A hybrid cleric provides more healing per encounter (though all at once) than a runepriest can, until people's surge values start coming out of the single digits.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2011 - 6:47PM
#44
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That's going to be hard at level 5 (assuming your character is still 5th level). I'm also assuming you're a Cha-based Starlock. I didn't notice any major contributions to my party until late Heroic on mine honestly. I built him to be a debuffer, but we had a closed party so no one could really take advantage of what I was doing but me. I've sinced changed him to a Con-lock to better suit my playstyle and the campaign setting (so I could take the Vestige Pact via Two-Fold Pact). Toss in MC-ResourceLord (so I can go Star-Fated Champion ED) and Student of Caiphon and I have a very utilitarian and useful character that more than pulls his weight.
I think to get the most out of Frigid Darkness and powers like it without extra outside help you really need to be a Student of Caiphon at the very least (MC-Warlord helps too) so that once you hit with it, you can almost guarantee additional attacks and bonuses to hit and/or damage via your Pact Boon and Caiphon's Intercession. Our leader is a Battle Cleric, so I get to play Warlord whenever I want basically plus I still do pretty good damage, have good defenses and a lot of hit points for a non-defender. I'm not seeing where I'm a liability to my party in the slightest. :P
I only play Gondolin at conventions, so he's still L5 and eagerly looking forward to being taken somewhere. He is a CHR/Star'Lock. I've had several occasions where I am the party's salvation against flying foes - now I just have to train my friends to protect me vs melee artists - and the only guy who can reach the fliers.
I am looking at MC ResourceLord also, and I want to Eternal Seeker him eventually, but the Star-Fated Champion fluff text was too up-his-alley to ignore. I might take the L24 feature; auto-crit any Save vs Death sounds really useful. (Gondolin got clobbered to within 3 HP of his life once...) For fluff reasons - and just to be different - I'm PPing Master of the Starry Night rather than Student of Caiphon.
My primary experience with Frigid Darkness (before the to-hit rolls got out of reach and I retrained) was to enable an ambush. Each PC had a trio of bow-and-arrow minions along. I got my hit, and when I told the group that the target had an AC penalty, they all looked at the DM and pretty much said, "I tell my minions to open fire". When the AC penalty went away, they could only hit about 1/10 of the time. But in the meanwhile...
Re party makeup: so you had 'a half-dozen solo stars' instead of 'a party'? My son made up the character he liked best (a chessmaster Warlord) and the two of us work on tactics together. So far we run into the most trouble when we split up on the battlefield. But when we stay nearby, it works!
Best complements I have yet received: Spoiler:
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Making it up as I go along:
{BRJN}
If I was writing the Tome of Lore, I would let Auppenser sleep. But I also would have him dream.
In his dreaming he re-activates the innate powers of (some) mortal minds. Or his dreaming changes the nature of reality - currently very malleable thanks to Spellplague &c. Or whatever really cool flavor text and pseudo-science explanation people react positively to.
{Lord_Karsus}
You know, I like that better than the explanations for the Spellplague.
My plot device: http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/ … #489880509 (The reaction is the next post.)
Prepped ahead of time:
I started the thread "1001 Failed Interrogation Results"
{ADHadh}
These are all good and make sense! I just can't come up with something that's not covered here and is not completely ridiculous.
My characters: Spoiler:
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Active Characters:
LFR Half-elf StarLock6 Gondolin Nightstar
AoA Dwarf Guardian Druid6 Narvik from House Wavir
Character A-building:
Neverwinter Dwarven Invoker / Heir of Delzoun / worships Silvanus (!)
"Truenamer" - speaks Words of Creation
Concepts I'm kicking around:
"Buggy" Wizard - insect flavor on everything
Halfling Tempest Fighter - just because nobody else is doing it
Shifter Beast-o-phile Druid - for PoL campaign
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2 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2011 - 6:10PM
#45
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Date Joined:
Dec 21, 2005
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What do you intend to eventually do? Compare them on paper or actually play the two parties out? How are the builds coming so far?
If I won the lottery and could quit my job, I'd play out the same encounter with both teams. I'd go first with Team Zeroes, and write down all the d20 rolls for all monsters and characters as they took them. Then I'd play Team Heroes, but instead of rolling d20's, each combatant would use the d20 rolls they made last fight (for monsters) or what the PC in their role made (for PC's), until they ran out. This would mitigate, although not eliminate, noise from dice luck.
I would then run this experiment at levels 3, 6, 9, 13, 16 and 19, using tough encounters from LFR modules, and if I could find some published Epic encounters, I'd use those at levels 23, 26 and 30.
Then I could write up a report about how the two parties performed against each other, to try to get an idea of what the differential is between "good classes" and "bad classes."
Realistically, I'll be honest and say I'll probably never get around to it. If I do, I'll probably be less ambitious, and just test 9, 19 and 30.
HA! Isn't that always the way when it comes to time, huh?
Call me a pureist, or a crazy, but I generally believe in the idea that there are no "zeroes" or "heroes." Meaning that dice and the game always find a way. (I refer to it as "the D&D gods have spoken.") So many times have I played with all the archetype players. Not characters mind you, but the powergamer, the slayer, the actor, the storyteller, the munchkin, etc. Oddly enough, the game always seems to balance out.
I have witnessed optimized players that need to "hit" on a 3 and roll out 2's. I've seen fighters with 14 Strengths stand and not only soak damage, but be very effective in combat situations when it came to marks and even damage. When I see threads about god-killing characters I always have to laugh at the chain of events it takes to see them happen - often where a single "1" on a d20 would foil their entire scheme. And you know what? They generally do, and when Orcus has his chance to retaliate, it doesn't end well.
Thankfully, the game is all things; a math game, a role-playing game, a story-building game, etc. I've still managed to enjoy myself with most archetype players at the table.
I'd love to give your characters a play-test with my group (altough the time to create them even might play against your lottery-winning need for more time). Although, I would not keep the rolls consitent or neutral. Each encounter would be anew (although I may opt to run the same encounter a few times at one selected level - probably like a late heroic level). I'm willing to bet "the gods would speak" as well. I'd even be willing to record it for fun.
I love the concept though, I've run my fair share of both. Good luck and pass them along if you want a trial run!
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 4:24PM
#46
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Damn, no Essentials builds? There goes the Enchantment Mage, then. 
Would said class/build be a hero or a zero?
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 6:05PM
#47
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Leaders are the only class that have a truly common backbone, the X Word mechanic. I think that goes a long way toward explaining their consistency. Then again, the original three strikers had a common mechanic (SA/Quarry/Curse dice) and look how that turned out ... 
Poets. Preists and Politicians have Words to thank for their positions.
AKA
Bards, Clerics and Warlords etc.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2011 - 11:29PM
#48
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2008
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Damn, no Essentials builds? There goes the Enchantment Mage, then.
Would said class/build be a hero or a zero?
Enchantment Mage would definitely be a hero.
D&DN Paladin: Half-Fighter, half-Cleric, all useless. D&DN Ranger: Third-Fighter, third-Rogue, third-Druid, all useless. With one interesting concept that has its execution botched. My 4e Character Op work:Character guides
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2 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2011 - 2:18AM
#49
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2010
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I certainly don't think that the starpact warlock is a zero, considering it is the only class that can be a Student of Caiphon (critting on 18 with cold of radiant powers). Combine that with curse damage and lots of bursts and blasts (arcane admixture thunder + resounding thunder to increase the size) and you are getting significant crits and them you just optimise for crits.
Oh and if we are talking about barbarians in the heroes, I would take my whirler over a rageblood any day. IME more attacks > bigger attacks when you can seriously ramp the static mods (Kensei etc).
Just my 2p.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 15, 2011 - 2:22AM
#50
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2008
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Student of Caiphon Warlocks really aren't that good, even with the 18-20 crit range. Starlocks just can't overcome the fact that they have to go 18/18 CHA/CON, maintaining two attack stats all the way, and having no room left for a decent INT score for rider effects.
D&DN Paladin: Half-Fighter, half-Cleric, all useless. D&DN Ranger: Third-Fighter, third-Rogue, third-Druid, all useless. With one interesting concept that has its execution botched. My 4e Character Op work:Character guides
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