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2 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2011 - 4:36PM
#21
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I wanted to shoot this down as well. I don't have books with me, but the compendium doesn't define "melee basic attack" or "ranged basic attack". It just defines "basic attack":
A basic attack is an at-will attack power that everyone possesses, regardless of class. The power comes in two forms: melee and ranged. You calculate the attack bonuses of a basic attack like those of any other attack power.
RAW, I can't see any way to challenge it. RAW with a sanity check, this would get you beat with a DMG.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2011 - 4:41PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Dec 25, 2009
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RAW, I can't see any way to challenge it. RAW with a sanity check, this would get you beat with a DMG.
Yup.
This is theoretical op even with pure RAW on your side, because even LFR DMs have enough leeway to shut it down, and would almost certainly do so.
The difference between madness and genius is determined only by degrees of success.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2011 - 4:44PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Feb 26, 2006
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I wanted to shoot this down as well. I don't have books with me, but the compendium doesn't define "melee basic attack" or "ranged basic attack". It just defines "basic attack":
A basic attack is an at-will attack power that everyone possesses, regardless of class. The power comes in two forms: melee and ranged. You calculate the attack bonuses of a basic attack like those of any other attack power.
RAW, I can't see any way to challenge it. RAW with a sanity check, this would get you beat with a DMG.
The only thing that's needed to challenge it is the english language. A melee basic attack by definition must be a melee attack. It's in the name...
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2 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2011 - 7:23PM
#24
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A melee basic attack by definition must be a melee attack. It's in the name...
Still don't see it.
You can use Magic Missile as a MBA. It has range 20...
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2011 - 7:26PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2010
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As I see it, it works just like Winged Weapon utility just in reverse. When you use winged weapon your attack is both melee and ranged. If you attack an adjacent target it is still a ranged attack and if you attack a target at range it is still a melee attack. If I use a melee basic with winged weapon it is still a melee basic. Adding range to it does not make it a ranged basic. It would still be a melee basic with a range of 10.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2011 - 8:33PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jan 21, 2003
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Ok I seriously want to know how people think this is a loose interpretation of the RAW?
It uses Reapers Touch, you know the Shadar-Kai only feat (not sorcerous blade channeling).
The feat specifically says that 5 listed spells (one of them magic missile) gains a new range (melee touch) in addition to its origional range. It then goes on to specifically say you can use the attack as a melee basic attack. Seriously most of you argueing against this look to have access to the compendium, look it up.
And from there it just cheeses up the fact that the autohitting spell magic missile can now be used on a charge (because all a charge requires is a melee basic attack) to add a ton of 'when a charge happens do this' modifiers.
Now if you get beat over the head with a DMG by the DM is another question altogether. But I know at the tables I play they'd let it pass..seeing it as no worse than the ranger with massive numbers of duel arrows, and then all the minor attacks he could muster.
Edit: Read over read over read over. Aaahh now I see the issue. So honestly lets umm put it this way. Intent of the rules seems to read that the melee touch version if now a melee basic attack. Not the ranged 20 version. So no you cannot cannot charge squares away from an enemy and then used the ranged version of magic missile using this cheese. Unless you somehow find a feat that lets you normally use a ranged attack at the end of a charge. RAW you might barely just barely get this..but any DM who'd let it pass is either letting wacky build day pass...or is silly enough to think its ok to let Pun Pun work.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2011 - 9:15PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Dec 20, 2009
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This doesn't work for a couple of reasons.
First minor reason: roundabout charge only removes the requirement that each square must bring you closer to the target, it does not remove the requirement that you move up to your speed toward the target, as such you must end at least 1 square closer to the target, so no randomly charging in completely the opposite direction. This doesn't break the whole idea but it is something to note.
Second reason: You are making a melee basic attack, which is a melee attack. Melee attacks have a range equal to your reach, some powers and feats and such can increase your reach but there is nothing in this build increasing your reach. Just because your power has a range of 20 doesn't mean your reach has increased beyond 1. Powers that allow you to do a melee attack greater than your reach are specified as "melee #" not "ranged #". What it basically comes down to (which I think someone mentioned above) is that you are making a melee basic attack at the end of a charge, as such you must use a power which is specified with a melee range, the melee touch part of MM allows you to do this but as such you must make the attack at melee touch.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2011 - 10:17PM
#28
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Come on! Three pages of responses and nobody has given mellored props for some pretty dang funny flavor? I'll let others nitpick the rules, but I say A+ for optimizing for fun. And, lest we forget: Brave Sir Robin ran away. ("No!") Bravely ran away away. ("I didn't!") When danger reared it's ugly head, He bravely turned his tail and fled. ("no!") Yes, brave Sir Robin turned about ("I didn't!") And gallantly he chickened out. Bravely taking ("I never did!") to his feet, He beat a very brave retreat. ("all lies!") Bravest of the braaaave, Sir Robin! ("I never!")
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2 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2011 - 11:24PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Aug 22, 2007
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While I can see how Reaper's Touch could get read either way, I think I'm going to have to go and agree with Jay_Ibero_911 here. But I'd like to view it another way: If it is really intended to function as an MBA with a range of 20, why also give it a range of melee touch? Is that not utterly superfluous?
Still, Valenkosh has the right of this. Mellored, this is the most awesome and hilarious concept I've read probably since your high-DPR Int 8 charging wizard. I appreciate the imagination put to work here and laughed when I stumbled across it.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 06, 2011 - 1:16AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2009
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While I can see how Reaper's Touch could get read either way, I think I'm going to have to go and agree with Jay_Ibero_911 here. But I'd like to view it another way: If it is really intended to function as an MBA with a range of 20, why also give it a range of melee touch? Is that not utterly superfluous?
I don't think it is superfluous. Even if you used MM as a MBA, without that line it is still a ranged attack and would incur OA's. So by saying that it can have a range of touch, it prevents the Wizard from taking OA's.
There is nothing in the Rules Compendium (under the basic attack sections, anyway) that prevents MM from being used as a MBA from 20 squares away. Is it silly? Of course. But nothing in the RC prevents MM from being used as a MBA at range 20. Personally, I would allow it at my LFR tables (and I would never allow Pun-Pun, tyvm Stafir).
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