|
2 years ago ::
Jul 04, 2011 - 6:45AM
#21
|
Date Joined:
Jun 24, 2009
|
Thanks for all the info and insight. If I had to choose between two alignment systems I'd go with 3e's 9 alignments that try to cover many varied aspects, to be honest, since there really isn't much stress placed on alignment I may not even bother with it (and paths/destinies that require it, I may look the other way on (although obviously no taking 1 path good and 1 destiny evil)). I won't deny that alignment can't cover the depth of human personalities but is a nice tool for people new to the game, looking for ideas on how to mold their character's traits (when I say new, I mean players who for the most part have silent characters that never talk and are really just waiting out 'boring' gaps between combat encounters (I had a few sessions with players that were like this, almost killed DnD for me)).
Alignment systems in general can (probably) never cater to forming complicated characters, unless you had one system measuring your selflessness/selfishness, another for your mercifulness/unforgivingness, another for your lawfulness/chaoticness, another for how loose or inhibited you are. Even then, are you selfish in giving monetary donations but would have no problem with donating blood? Would you show mercy to a demonic cultist who swears he will change but be unforgiving of a vigilante who's killed innocent people due to lack of information? Would you support law in a country that treats its citizenry like trash but support the people rising up in a country where the technology and educational standards have been so bad that goblins are like an advanced race in comparison? Are you loose enough that you may try seeing what relations with other races like dwarves, mindflayers, vampires and demons are like but have inhibitions against goblins, orcs, dragonborns and gnomes?
An ideal 'alignment' system would be one with so many smaller gauges for all of these differences that it becomes a pain to waste time on, and if it's a pain to waste time on, then why annoy your players with it? An unimportant and broad alignment system allows for players to forego alignments completely or to pick one that in GENERAL sounds like their character. I honestly think that no ideal alignment system can be made without making it more of a pain that it is appreciable (while many (doubt it would be all) players may have fun going through the many options of such a system, most likely a DM who has to know the characters at least won't appreciate going through five characters worth of depth).
Won't deny that unless it can be affected by mechanics (like detect evil or smite evil), then it has no point and I'll go ahead and forego it.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Aug 01, 2011 - 8:35AM
#22
|
|
|
This is a great question. So great, I decided to cover it on my blog, Level & Class. Thanks for the question, and hopefully you find it helpful.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Aug 01, 2011 - 8:32PM
#23
|
Date Joined:
Apr 16, 2009
|
I'll add that it would be extremely unusual that a person would occupy a point on the alignment chart. Most people would be more like an amoeba or neuron - with a blob in one area (not a point, an area) but tendrils reaching out to lots of different places. Amoeba: t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxFton...Neuron: t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS_TSRB...
"The world does not work the way you have been taught it does. We are not real as such; we exist within The Story. Unfortunately for you, you have inherited a condition from your mother known as Primary Protagonist Syndrome, which means The Story is interested in you. It will find you, and if you are not ready for the narrative strands it will throw at you..." - from Footloose
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2011 - 9:18AM
#24
|
|
|
well any alignment would probably look like that, just with 4 axis.  But you would have to make 2such diagrams, one for the actions, on one for how confortable you your self are with the actions you take. One can do evil things to win some good and feel bad about it. Or one can do good things but does it becose of social presure he rather be a selfish a**.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2011 - 10:28AM
#25
|
Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2011
|
well any alignment would probably look like that, just with 4 axis.
But you would have to make 2such diagrams, one for the actions, on one for how confortable you your self are with the actions you take. One can do evil things to win some good and feel bad about it. Or one can do good things but does it becose of social presure he rather be a selfish a**.
This is an awsome diagram, however I can't read it. Could you please give a translation of each axis of this diagram?
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2011 - 2:25PM
#26
|
|
|
well the diagram is just an ilustration. it has nothing to do with the diskution. but the titles starting at the top clockwise. Time dependent scalability, Completeness, Easy communicateable (does that exist in english), Easy manageable, Easy realizable.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Aug 02, 2011 - 11:30PM
#27
|
Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2011
|
well the diagram is just an ilustration. it has nothing to do with the diskution. but the titles starting at the top clockwise. Time dependent scalability, Completeness, Easy communicateable (does that exist in english), Easy manageable, Easy realizable.
Thank you for the translations saint-ch.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Aug 06, 2011 - 10:59AM
#28
|
Date Joined:
Jul 25, 2003
|
Personally, I wish they'd axed the Law vs. Chaos spectrum completely, because it's always been so poorly defined. They never could have published an alignment book for Law or Chaos like the Book of Vile Darkness or Book of Exalted Deeds because that would have required them to actually figure out what they meant by Law. Is it following the rules? Having personal discipline? Being organized? Supporting governmental structures? Acting consistently? Depending on which rule book you're reading, you could come to different conclusions.
As others have said already, what's really helpful for getting into your character's philosophy and morality is to ask a few short questions, like "Who do you care about enough to treat with respect and dignity?" or "How far are you willing to go to get what you need? What you want?" Those can't be abbreviated and scribbled onto a line on a character sheet easily, though.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Aug 06, 2011 - 2:26PM
#29
|
|
|
Personally, I wish they'd axed the Law vs. Chaos spectrum completely, because it's always been so poorly defined. They never could have published an alignment book for Law or Chaos like the Book of Vile Darkness or Book of Exalted Deeds because that would have required them to actually figure out what they meant by Law. Is it following the rules? Having personal discipline? Being organized? Supporting governmental structures? Acting consistently? Depending on which rule book you're reading, you could come to different conclusions.
As others have said already, what's really helpful for getting into your character's philosophy and morality is to ask a few short questions, like "Who do you care about enough to treat with respect and dignity?" or "How far are you willing to go to get what you need? What you want?" Those can't be abbreviated and scribbled onto a line on a character sheet easily, though.
Good and evil are in the same boat, as a number of these sorts of threads prove with such delightful questions as 'should we slaughter the baby goblins'. The whole thing should have been canned with 4e.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Aug 06, 2011 - 3:19PM
#30
|
Date Joined:
Jul 25, 2003
|
Good and evil are in the same boat, as a number of these sorts of threads prove with such delightful questions as 'should we slaughter the baby goblins'. The whole thing should have been canned with 4e.
Point well taken, though I've found with gaming groups at least (as opposed to online discussions) that it's usually fairly easy to get a few points of reference down to establish an idea of the morality a particular group/DM runs with. I had a much worse track record in 3.5 trying to convince people that it was stupid that my Bard couldn't be Lawful and that we should do away with those alignment restrictions.
In the end, though, I agree that alignment should have been taken out entirely, grognards be damned.
|
|
|
