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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 3:13AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Aug 16, 2007
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So, I know many aren't fans of the essentials design. I really don't want to get into which is better. But I was currious about something. Is it the deviation from a one design fits all classes or the lack of encounter power options? I'll start by saying that I'm not a fan of daily abilities on any class. Mainly because I'm the type of player that holds on to them, worrying that they might be more useful later on. So I'm mainly interested in how the encounter powers weigh in. I also don't do LFR so the whole four encounters and done mentality is completely foreign to me.
So my question is, would the martial classes have been more palitable if they had more options for their Power Strike or backstab?
For example, what if instead of just adding 1W to the attack, what if you had the option of doing Str + (Dex or Con) mod damage to every enemy in burst 1? Or a shift 1 then make an attack against one enemy adjacent other than the original target?
Basically taking some of the existing encounter powers and making power strike options out of them.
The same could be done with the thief and backstab.
Would that have made a difference to anyone?
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 4:18AM
#2
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personally, I also find that daily powers are less desireable in design. I find myself often haording them as you describe.
In creating martial characters, I very rarely consider the essentials sub-classes; because, they have much less versatility to fulfill a style. I prefer to build a character with a fighting style that grows and develops as they continue to level.
Essentials sub-classes among the martial classes lack the strength to build several of the fighting styles that become notably connected in style and capability. Some missing concepts include:
* Brawling fighter
* Shield fighter
* Maruader ranger
* Duelist rogue
Others could be listed, but I'll leave that as it is. I recognize that not all of these builds exist as the optimized choices for fighters, rangers, and rogues, yet they provide a repeateable style of combat which can be built form level 1 upward.
If Essentials had not been a committed, '10 books, no more,' publishing concept, I think that seeing continued growth of the Essentials sub-classes to include additional sub-classes that represent the additional builds or through additional power choices that manifest the other builds would be a valuable contribution.
Regardless, I am most displeased by Essentials sidelining development, dimishing interest in and awareness of an expanded collection of other classes (anecdotal, do not ask for data), and excluding Essential sub-classes of other, easy-to-essentialize classes such as Barbarian, Sorcerer, Monk, and Bard.
I think that one of the best things Essentials could have done for WotC is provide a clear and distinct object of design for a future edition rather than making alterations to 4e. Were I given an opportunity long ago, I would have very readily declared of Essentials, "This looks great and has a fantastic potential to take over the game when our flagship 4e has run its course; keep it on a backburner for now and make sure you bring it out the moment we begin development for 5e. Until then, focus on the product we've already made a commitment to support. There are classes that deserve continued development and settings that deserve continued depth and breadth. Most of all, there are adventures galore to be had with our existing classes which should be explored more than exploring sub-classes." (emphasis mine)
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 4:46AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jul 23, 2008
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I am a huge fan of Daily Powers. I blow through them at a pace of one per Encounter, until all are expended, and never look back.
I think if the Martial Classes had first started out when 4th was released with generic fighter encounter and daily powers, that I wouldn't have had the backlash I did to the essentials revision. I was actually expecting only a few options like Power Strike, Cleave, etc...for the Fighter when the new edition launched. I actually like the symmetry of the martial classes having Power Strike as their encounter power (except for the Hunter).
They opened pandora's box with 4th powers in the sheer number that had to be released. I would have loved a Fighter, when 4th started, with a Power Strike Encounter power and a Brute Strike Daily Power and little else.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 8:50AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Nov 17, 2003
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I could care less whether classes follow the AEDU structure, whether classes get encounter powers, daily powers, or what have you.
What I don't like about Essentials is the lack of options. I want a choice every class level from a menu of options. Essentials has levels where you get one thing and one thing only. If a couple supplements are released that add more options, I will be perfectly happy with the Essentials style. Until then.....they feel constrained.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 8:54AM
#5
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I could care less whether classes follow the AEDU structure, whether classes get encounter powers, daily powers, or what have you.
What I don't like about Essentials is the lack of options. I want a choice every class level from a menu of options. Essentials has levels where you get one thing and one thing only. If a couple supplements are released that add more options, I will be perfectly happy with the Essentials style. Until then.....they feel constrained.
The lack of choices is really irritating. That's what I dislike most about essentials. It's just plain boring and restrictive.
Personally, I don't like daily powers a whole lot. I would prefer to see everything balanced on a per encounter basis.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 9:02AM
#6
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Unfortunately, I feel the best option for martials was wasted on Psionics. A stamina pool that lets you build attacks on the fly, with means for regaining it over the fight. It would have looked like a blend of psionics and Mike Mearl's Iron Heroes game.
I just find the current martial essentials classes dull in comparison. If they wanted some simple classes, they should have made an essentials version for types other than martial. Slayer/knight, thief, healer (cleric leader), invoker (wizard controller) and shapeshifter (druid striker) or something like that. That way there's a training wheels/streamlined class for every power source and role.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 9:28AM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2001
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I prefered the PHB style classes to the 4.5 classes.
Why? The lack of meaningful choices reminds me of old D&D where the fighter was obsolete by level 12 or so unless there was heavy houserules involved.
Would I have bought 4.5 if the classes were more like PHB? yes. I've been saying this for weeks. If the "beginner books" came with a pre-built fighter with full encounter and daily powers, but those powers were able to be swapped with the PHB fighter there would have been no change in the atmosphere around here. It would truely have been "just another splat book" for those of us who like the PHB design.
They could have made both the slayer and knight full AEDU classes with powers. Even if the two builds presented in the book had no options presented to them in their leveling chart.
Sergent at arms of the house of trolls.
Est Solarus oth Mithas
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 9:30AM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jul 22, 2001
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If they wanted some simple classes, they should have made an essentials version for types other than martial. Slayer/knight, thief, healer (cleric leader), invoker (wizard controller) and shapeshifter (druid striker) or something like that. That way there's a training wheels/streamlined class for every power source and role.
This would have been acceptable as well. It would feel less of fighters drool.
Sergent at arms of the house of trolls.
Est Solarus oth Mithas
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 9:43AM
#9
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Unfortunately, I feel the best option for martials was wasted on Psionics. A stamina pool that lets you build attacks on the fly, with means for regaining it over the fight. It would have looked like a blend of psionics and Mike Mearl's Iron Heroes game.
I just find the current martial essentials classes dull in comparison. If they wanted some simple classes, they should have made an essentials version for types other than martial. Slayer/knight, thief, healer (cleric leader), invoker (wizard controller) and shapeshifter (druid striker) or something like that. That way there's a training wheels/streamlined class for every power source and role.
I've been thinking the exact same thing since psionics was released! I loved the Iron Heroes game. It would have been awesome if they used the token/power point mechanic for 4e, allowing you to build up points/tokens to unleash powerful attacks, or spending them quickly for smaller boosts.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 9:57AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Sep 30, 2010
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I prefered the PHB style classes to the 4.5 classes.
Why? The lack of meaningful choices reminds me of old D&D where the fighter was obsolete by level 12 or so unless there was heavy houserules involved.
Would I have bought 4.5 if the classes were more like PHB? yes. I've been saying this for weeks. If the "beginner books" came with a pre-built fighter with full encounter and daily powers, but those powers were able to be swapped with the PHB fighter there would have been no change in the atmosphere around here. It would truely have been "just another splat book" for those of us who like the PHB design.
They could have made both the slayer and knight full AEDU classes with powers. Even if the two builds presented in the book had no options presented to them in their leveling chart.
but the knight and slayers do not become obsolete after any lvls, they stay tactical though all the lvls...they maybe not get all the stuff to pick but i think the balance of the game is having something to do during all the combat...not how much stuff you can pick from or how much damage you can do. it comes to being able to do something during combat...not like in 3.5 when i would just take myself off the list and not do anything becasue well i could not do anything.
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