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2 years ago ::
Jun 30, 2011 - 7:41PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Oct 21, 2006
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This may be a simple question to answer, but I was hoping to get a more certain grasp on it. I know there have been threads roughly about this and will gladly read any if someone can direct me to them. I simply haven't found any that talk about it in very certain terms so was hoping to ask the math-wizards here on the CharOp boards.
Multiple attacks and charging are the best ways for a striker to do sufficient DPR and damage on attacks. However, when looking at dailies and encounters in the epic tier, I often see people saying that the high number of damage dice is insufficient. For example, I believe there's a 9[W] power that seems incredibly strong due to the high number of dice, but simply isn't. So, how many dice are equivalent? Should a daily attack be hitting for 4 dice if its a striker power and not a multi-attack daily? An epic tier monster can have 200-300 Hit points (non solo, non elite). Should a daily really just be giving out an average of 24-32 damage from dice alone? This seems vastly too low to me. I've played a fair amount of heroic and paragon but not much in epic. I know that fully op'ed rangers can get very high base bonuses to damage rolls (called shot, frost cheese, etc). With damage dice around that of the above (assuming 4-8 1d8's) you'd need another 100 static damage just to bloody a regular mob with a daily power. Dailies should give an effect that lasts all encounter, but does the game also assume a daily to really mess up a monster (i.e. bloodied or below in one go)? Without making use of non-obvious tricks (frost cheese is pretty obvious) how many classes can do sufficient striker damage with their encounters/dailies in epic?
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2 years ago ::
Jun 30, 2011 - 7:47PM
#2
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If I were going to redesign encounter- and daily- damage (but keep all other aspects of the current framework for some reason), I'd probably leave minor/immediates like they are, and bump up the standard action ones to about double the [W] or damage dice they presently have.
The world is a mess, I just need to... rule it.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 30, 2011 - 7:47PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Sep 15, 2009
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This may be a simple question to answer, but I was hoping to get a more certain grasp on it. I know there have been threads roughly about this and will gladly read any if someone can direct me to them. I simply haven't found any that talk about it in very certain terms so was hoping to ask the math-wizards here on the CharOp boards.
Multiple attacks and charging are the best ways for a striker to do sufficient DPR and damage on attacks. However, when looking at dailies and encounters in the epic tier, I often see people saying that the high number of damage dice is insufficient. For example, I believe there's a 9[W] power that seems incredibly strong due to the high number of dice, but simply isn't. So, how many dice are equivalent? Should a daily attack be hitting for 4 dice if its a striker power and not a multi-attack daily? An epic tier monster can have 200-300 Hit points (non solo, non elite). Should a daily really just be giving out an average of 24-32 damage from dice alone? This seems vastly too low to me. I've played a fair amount of heroic and paragon but not much in epic. I know that fully op'ed rangers can get very high base bonuses to damage rolls (called shot, frost cheese, etc). With damage dice around that of the above (assuming 4-8 1d8's) you'd need another 100 static damage just to bloody a regular mob with a daily power. Dailies should give an effect that lasts all encounter, but does the game also assume a daily to really mess up a monster (i.e. bloodied or below in one go)? Without making use of non-obvious tricks (frost cheese is pretty obvious) how many classes can do sufficient striker damage with their encounters/dailies in epic?
All you need to do is compare the [w] to static mods of that level.
A quick (and out of my ass example)...
Static mods = 30
d12 = 6.5 dmg avg
30/6.5 = 4.62
So, if your static mods are 30, that is equivilant to a little more than 4.5[w].
Make that twin strike and the static mods (+60) equal the 9[w] all by themselves. That doesn't include the 4[w] you get from hitting with epic twin strike twice at 5.5 avg dmg.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 30, 2011 - 8:08PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Oct 21, 2006
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Hmm..well LDB's Hurricane has a static of +38 on twin strike not including the extra 18 it gets on one target from the stormwarden features. That's an at-will that doesn't get an ability modifier bonus, of course its the ranger at-will so its on a different level. That's at least nine to ten dice from modifiers. If you consider that other classes can probably get something around that static number then an at-will would need to be like..8[w] to compete with a multi-attack? Encounters and dailies should then be at least around 8-9 dice at epic plus effects?
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2 years ago ::
Jun 30, 2011 - 8:20PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Sep 15, 2009
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Hmm..well LDB's Hurricane has a static of +38 on twin strike not including the extra 18 it gets on one target from the stormwarden features. That's an at-will that doesn't get an ability modifier bonus, of course its the ranger at-will so its on a different level. That's at least nine to ten dice from modifiers. If you consider that other classes can probably get something around that static number then an at-will would need to be like..8[w] to compete with a multi-attack? Encounters and dailies should then be at least around 8-9 dice at epic plus effects?
Really, it is chasing numbers that don't matter. As you get higher static mods, the required adding to [w] keeps going up. 11[w] might work at +30 but you would need 12-13[w] at +40. That is the definitive multi-attack issue. If you are looking for a quick and dirty fix, make weapon focus and weapon enhancements apply per [w]. That will normalize the whole thing without a massive rework.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 30, 2011 - 9:36PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Oct 21, 2006
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I wasn't particularly looking too much to rework the whole thing, but I've been playing around with changes to the assassin for my home games and was wondering whether some of the values I was using were too high. I feel alot more confident about an extra 8d6 or 12d6 for shroud damage on a daily in epic.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 30, 2011 - 10:28PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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What's the point of [W]'s or more d6's/d8's? It's just more dice you have to add up. By the time you add up umpteen dice, you may as well just be using the average value. If the goal is to increase damage, I definitely think adding some of the static modifiers to the [W]'s (or in the case of implement powers, each dice) is a more elegant solution, but may spiral out of control a bit at low and mid levels.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 2:18AM
#8
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It would be easier if you could use more immediates at the higher levels, when magic items and powers start adding up.
I'd like to see 1/2/3 immediates per round at each level.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 3:20AM
#9
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If you do the scale-up, a high damage single hit power at epic should be doing 30[W] to match the 5[W] powers in mid-heroic. Needless to say, no such power exists, which is why damaging characters attack more than once per round by any means possible. For practical purposes, this means that after heroic tier you pick your powers entirely for rider effects, number of damage rolls, and action economy advantage.
Also, expanding interrupts per round is going to make the game extremely messy at high levels (some people already have complaints as-is), so that's not a solution.
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2 years ago ::
Jul 01, 2011 - 6:45AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Oct 21, 2006
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And it sucks slightly that its been done that way. The ranger's way of doing things seems to be mostly through its multi-attacks. How else can you get other strikers to compete without simply using the same powers? Providing multiple ways for the striker to attack in a round seems like a necessity. One thing I've been doing for my game is having a slew of daily powers for the assassin that provides an encounter-long effect that gives them a free (with triggers) or minor action attack once per round. Many of the encounters I started to use are also immediate interrupt/reaction's.
It seems to me as if nearly all striker encounters/dailies need to do something along this line--somehow provide more than one attack roll in order to actually provide sufficient damage. Is this correct?
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