Yeah, yeah I know. It's been brought up endlessly, and every thread I've seen about this idea lasts for 3 pages tops with no real input or ideas. Let's get a few things out of the way:
1 - I don't want people posting (/nasal whiny tone) "But Star Wars already has a RPG called SAGA go play that" or "Why would you want to do that. That's stupid!" (/end nasal whiny tone), or any other rebuttal against the idea. It's not hurting you if myself and like-minded individuals want to dig in and actually do this thing. I can't stress this enough - It's not hurting you. If you don't like it, don't read the thread and ignore it's existance! PLEASE!
The reason I am looking into this is because I despise anything remotely similar to 3.5. SAGA still has a lot of the hold overs from 3.5 - full-round actions, differing BaB between classes, and racial penalties, and the clunky 'I'll dip into this class to get this ability' multi-classing, to name a few. Secondly the 4e rules set seems oddly perfect for Star Wars considering the mobile easily cinemitized combats that happen in 4e vs. the static combats that tend to happen in SAGA. Also, I have none of the SAGA books and I am unwilling to pay the ridonkulous prices they want on eBay and Amazon, and I will not risk viruses (or possible fines) by downloading illegal PDFs and torrents.
2 - None of this 'use a Swordmage or Psionic this or that and refluff it = boom jedi etc'. No. Just no. I want fully realized classes that are built for the flavor and themes of Star Wars, not a refluffed D&D class. I'm not necessarily looking for a reskinned D&D exactly. I just want to be able toi run a Star Wars game using the 4e rules set.
3 - If you have any ideas whatsoever that can contribute, then by all means, throw it into the pot and see what happens. Also if we can get enough information on this idea, maybe we can start a wiki for it, but that's getting ahead of myself.
So in closing on those 3 points, this thread of for those of us who want a fully realized Star Wars RPG using the 4e rules set. We can trade ideas for classes, powers, rules and other ideas here and help each other keep things balanced. I know there are people out there who want this, I've seen the threads and none of them got any positive responses. Well here is a place for us to congregate and share ideas and information (until they decide this thread is the wrong place and move it).
Now to some of my ideas in brief - firstly I would only do 1-20, Star Wars just doesn't fit the Epic tier of play in my eyes, high Paragon is the stopping point for Star Wars. I would also either do away with Power Sources, or there would only be 2: Force and Martial/Tech.
The Martial/Tech classes would be Soldier (Defender/Striker), Scoundrel (Striker), Scout (Controller/Striker), Noble (Leader/Controller).
The Force power source it would be Force Warrior (Defender/Striker), Force Adept (Striker), Force Sorcerer (Controller), Force Sage (Leader). The reason for the generic force user class names is so that you can be a part of any Force Tradition or Order and simply add something similar to a Theme to become a Jedi or a Sith or what have you, not sure how this would work exactly, at least not yet, but I figure it would change the name of the class based on the tradition or order (i.e. Jedi Guardian, Jedi Sentinel, Jedi Consular, Jedi Sage).
There could be other classes (and Power Sources, maybe, but that's pushing it), like Engineer or Bounty Hunter, if anyone can come up with them, but otherwise I figure they would be builds and paragon paths.
Now while I am against taking classes whole-sale from D&D, I am not against taking a power here and there if it fits thematically with the class in question. Yes this means we could see Swordmage powers alongside Battlemind powers. If anyone has the SAGA books I am sure we could use the talents as a guideline for powers as well (and the force powers, duh lol), and some of the feats would probably port over decently with some tweaks. Also, while I am not fond of Essentials, this may be one place where I could see using Essentials design for classes (would make it easier and quicker), though if we can come up with fully realized AEDU o4e classes I would be happier with that.
Not quite sure how to convert vehicle/space combat. Figure you could slap roles on the vehicles based on what they were designed to do (Starfighter = Defender, Bomber = Controller, Interceptor = Striker, Capital Ship = Leader etc, just a thought). Again not sure how to work this quite yet, this may be one of the biggest hurdles to over come in this project.
NPC/monster stats - I figure maybe set up a template that sets up the humanoid NPCs (what most Star Wars games consist of) from 1-20 using Monster themes/templates to add race and class. Creatures such as the Rancor and Krayt Dragon we would need to come up with full stats for. As I am not familiar with how monsters are put together and balanced for 4th, this is going to be a hurdle for me at least.
And that would cover it, outside of a few skills and their description/example DCs, but if again if anyone has the SAGA books we could easily port those over. Oh and races, but that should be easy enough tbh.
That's all for now, will check in perodically and post when I have something more (like classes, powers, etc).
While I am not personaly a fan of such games I will lend what advice /sugestions I can think of.
Monster creation: is actualy prety easy if you get the monster builder program WOTC offers, it could lend very well for this. Just make a bunch of custome monsters for base monster races, then any time you want to make a monster with classes or theme use the edit a copy of this monster button and change the rols type (solo minions ect) and lvl then add in powers you have in mind over all the program makes it super easy to balence and create a new monster with little effort so your covered there more or less.
Class: For this I would at first ignore the power source thats more fluff then anything anyhows. what I would start with is make a list of all classes you wanted, perhaps jedi and sith could be a theme or more relisticaly a paragon path for force using classes. Rebel/ emperial or whatever faction could be themes as that I think would lend best. Once you have a list of all the classes you could think of again only heroic classes at this point. Then assigne each class a role -striker defender-leader- so on and so forth. This will give you a prety good guidline for class features. next go through and think of what things each class type did in the movies books other rpg books that sets them aside from other classes. don't detail these yet just make a list of there strong points and weak points so that you have a guidline for class features and powers for each class. Next make a thread for each class. In that thread list all the details about the class you have so far, link back to the main thread and on the main thread link to all the sub threads. This is a lot of work to create the threads but once there created you can ingnore most of them except when someone posts on them. The reason for so many difrent threrads is often people get overwhelmed by long posts such as the one you have here or even my responce to you. so many smaller posts will see more feedback, also if a thread starts to get to many pages take all the updates and start a new thread linking to botht he old thread and the main thread so again people can further refine what you have without reading a zillion pages.
Vehicles: This could be rather dificult I would strongly sugest looking into spell jammer material, other jedi material, and of cource any form of ship combat 4th ed has to offer. Vehicles should be able to be handled much like navel combat and movment, the fluff is difrent but the game mechanics are extreamly similar. with just a little work I ams ure you could determain a good system, barrow from mounted combat for land vehicles and navel combat for larger ships and space type combat. For walkers and the such could even designe a monster/npc template perhaps solo typed to represent the char while inside the vehicle such as walkers and the like (spead bikes and vehicls that don't fully hide the user should be done like mounted combat with difrent fluff and of cource difrent powers and junk but rule wise like mounted combat where pilot replaces mounted combat feat)
In closing get us the basics down then we can start to help you more effectivly.
For a starting point, I would check out Amethyst from Dias Ex Machina. It has modern classes, sci-fi weapons and vehicles (and vehicle handling rules), explosives, and new skills. They are also (hopefully) releasing Ultramodern4 soon. While these wouldn't have force rules or lightsabers or anything SW-specific, it could at least give you a solid (and playtested) base to work with and save you some time.
I wrote up a 4e star wars conversion a while back, but I think I deleted the files and never put it online. So this is all IIRC
At its core it was basically a 4e skin. You have 3 power sources. The Force, Leadership, and Military. (or something). I don't paticualrly like the names. Tech sounds familiar, but I don't remember if I hadit or not. (Maybe PHB 2 planned?)
Make a class for each role and power source = 12 classes. Make traditional 4e classes, and you can probably even steal the powers straight from the phb. Swapping "Arrow" for "Laser" or "Sword" for "Laser Sword".
For Races, I had humans and a point based alien creator. There are too many races to bother making an individual race write up for each one. Tell the players to make the one they want to use. Had a file for ones players had already played and the DM approved.
I did not go into vehicles and monsters can use the same 4e rules.
Thanks for the input so far everyone.
I'd go traditional 4e, because clas design is easier. Less work on your end. End of the day either will work, but since you are writing a new game entirely, its probably easier for traditional 4e.
Don't do subthreads. You will annoy me. The typical thing is to do one thread, but reserve the first 10~ posts. Type the word Reserved #1. Reserved #2, ect. Then go back and edit stuff in as you have it finished.
I think the first thing you should do is core system, then classes, then races. Lastly vehicles. Core rules should be fairly quick. "4e but this change". Classes are probably the biggest point of balance, and you need them around to make sure no race is too good at one class.
I'll let you know if I find it. I searched my PC and didn't see it, but I may have printed it for use at the table? If I did I can scan it.
I never bothered with the codeing but if using a single thread use the little option that makes the class hide till you click on it. Like the stickied post about races and a few comments have said to much in a single thread makes people not want to mess with them. perhaps work on a single class at a time when it's fine tunes prob take a weak or so maybe less then put it in a reserved spot of the main thread and let the race thread drift fo dust.
I for one never got hrough a thread if I see a zillion replies simply becouse it's to much to read to catch up.
One thing that will substantially lighten your workload: don't bother making two full tiers' worth of powers. Star Wars doesn't have enough intrinsic variety to warrant it. Ten levels of powers with upgradeable effects depending on what level they're taken at should be sufficient, and will be much easier to read.
Keep the damage in line with D&D. Lasers and lightsabers should have special properties to make them unique rather than just doing uber damage. This is part of why I recommend looking at Amethyst. They have tech classes that balance with regular D&D classes. Some people complained to them that guns should automatically do more damage, but as the designers recognized the advantage of guns lie in areas other than sheer damage potential.
To look at it another way, does a bullet to your torso do more damage than an axe to your face? Not to mention that HP damage does not always equate to physical wounds. Even lightsabers, as cool as they are, should rely on the attack powers to do damage rather than the weapon itself. Otherwise everyone would use them. Instead, most people use vibroblades as melee weapons and lightsabers are reserved for jedi or a few rare others that have trained in their use.
As for armor, some classes should use it and others should get by with ability bonuses or other features that make up for it. Soldiers, bounty hunters, and pirates are all mentioned as using armor. Smugglers, jedi, scouts, and other similar characters will probably make due with light or no armor. In other words, it still isn't that different from D&D. Your frontline warriors generally wear armor, whereas your skirmishers and magic-users (or in this case, Jedi) need mobility.
Thanks for the advice naga, and I looked at the Amethyst stuff today at my local store, and yeah I can totally see stealing some powers and ideas from that book, thanks.
So here's my idea for how Force Users would select their powers - first off all powers would be available at level 1 (with a few class specific exceptions like Force Healing being avaliable only to the leader class for example). So at 1st level you pick your first power(s), and every level you would gain a power, you pick a new one, and they level up with the character so nothing becomes obsolete. To me force powers are not meant to become obsolete and are meant to grow with the force user as they become more powerful in the force.
For example -
Standard Action Ranged 10
Target: One creature
Attack: Wisdom vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6+ Wisdom modifier damage and the target is knocked prone.
Level X: Increases in damage and effect (like pushing the target a number of squares) as
character gains levels
Close Burst 2
Target: All enemies in burst
Hit: 2d6+ Wisdom modifier damage and the targets are knocked prone
Level X: As above
Area burst 2 within 10 squares
Target: All enemies in burst
Hit: 2d6+ Wisdom modifier damage and the targets are knocked prone
Level X: As above
The Force 1 and 2 are meant to allow the force user to use Force Points to augment the power the same way PPs are used for psionic powers. It just makes sense to me for force powers to use a similar mechanic instead of the Use the Force mechanic in SAGA since the augment fits the 4e style much better. Also, no this power isn't balanced per se, it's meant purely as an example.
Also to avoid confusion, I know that Force Points in SAGA were used to roll extra dice to help a d20 roll, but since 4e has no similar mechanic, Force Points will only be usable for force users. Force Actions will take the place of Action Points (but work exactly the same).
Armor - loads of people in the EU use it. The only place it isn't used is the main movies. The original series because the PCs came from a desert so they wore loose fitting robes. The sequals because "All jedi wear robes and thats their uniform now. See luke and obi wan did it". Even on the clone wars tv show jedi are wearing armor when actually on missions, going back to robes when hanging around the palace. It is really just the movies.
Weapon Damage - keep it in line with DND. HP is supposed to be abstract. Just explain that in this system there are a lot more parrys and missed blaster shots than traditional RPGs. The only shot that actually lands is the killing blow which cuts off an arm/leg/face.
I wouldn't even make lightsabers paticularly good in comparison to other weapons. Maybe a superior weapon that force users are automatically proficent in. Then have class abilities like "Use your lightsaber to redirect blaster fire" instead of making that a property of the weapon.
If you really don't want jedi in armor, let them add another ability score to their AC in addition to dex/int when not in armor to encourage this.
Actually Krusk, I can see Jedi in at the very least light armor, since they wore it during the Great Hyperspace War and the various wars with the Sith in the past. Obi-Wan even wore some light armor during the Clone Wars. As for lightsabers I figured they'd be a 1d8 versatile, off-hand weapon (since we see them used easily both in the off hand and in the double handed grip). The handles and the crystals would both supply properties to the weapon itself. The handles I could see providing bonuses to attack rolls while giving properties that would come form swinging the weapon, and the crystals provide bonuses to damage, while providing properties that modify damage (like fire, cold etc). Just some random thoughts there.
Along with the equipment ideas, I'm figuring on using tech upgrades (scopes and enhanced energy packs for blasters, powered servos for armor etc) to work similar to magic properties for weapons and armor along with using the inherant bonuses optional rule. I am also thinking that different materials can provide different properties to equipment as well.
I am thinking that things like Force Trance and some of the similar mediatative type powers would be similar to rituals maybe? I am also thinking about either giving extra healing surges to the classes since there is no Raise Dead in SW, though I could also allow that as long as the 'dead' body was put into a Bacta tank within a set amount of time they could be 'raised'.
Haven't had time of late to work on the conversion stuff, between working on my D&D campaign and real life stuff. Hopefully soon I will have some free time to put some work into this. When I do I will start a new thread (with a link to this one) to use for the actual mechanical information, using this thread for everyone to continue throwing ideas around in. Just a heads up, yes I will be stealing existing powers from D&D and other sources, so don't be surprised if somethings looks familiar.
I hope you realize what you're getting into ;P
Doing even a single full class is a lot of work if you want to make it good, and you're talking abotu needing a whole set of feats and paragon paths as well.
That said, if you're still going through with it, check out the The Old Republic website and check out the classes. Thatll help you out with ideas on what should/should not be permissible. That and using EU resources will go along way to making some classes that fill each role.
Edited addition - I apologize for the length of this post, but I've done a lot of thinking recently on this conversion and how to do things to give the game a SW feel rather than a D&D with an SW skin feel.
Yep, I absolutely realize what I am getting myself into. I've already built a homebrew D&D setting, that started way back in 2e and never finished it until just recently for 4e (due to system changes. I'd get close and then, bam, new edition. 4e was the first system that made things really easy to make), with several new classes, paragon paths, and epic destinies as well as over 150 new feats that are specific to my setting (divided by region, race, and the like). No, none of them have been posted here due to my desire to keep things close to the vest in case WotC ever does one of those contests that got Eberron published.
Also keep in mind that I am only doing 20 levels, as I feel that Star Wars characters, even at their most powerful such as the Emperor or Yoda, or even Naga Sadow or Bastilla Shan were only ever at the peak of Paragon tier, but definetly not epic. Yoda as powerful as he was would not be able to challenge a god in his home domain if gods existed in SW, and that is what epic tier in D&D is all about, challenging gods and their minions.
Anyway, I have full access to a ton of EU information, and though your suggestion of checking out the SWTOR site is a good one, I think that they are being far too restrictive on some things, like the fact that you are literally stuck with specific types of weapons based on your class. Jedi Guardians for example, can only use a single-bladed lightsaber, or two single-bladed lightsaber, based on their advanced class, but can never use a double-bladed saber, or even pull a sudden trick out of their hat and shoot a blaster.
As an aside, that's the only thing that makes me hesitate about that game (and I've been watching it since it was announced years ago), is obvious lack of character customization, definition and flavor. I'm afraid it's going to be worse than WoW when it comes to end game and everyone looking the exact same, especially since they've already stated that they won't have appearance slots like so many other MMOs (EQ2, LotRO for example) have. I'll still buy it and play it to see and judge for myself, but with heavy reservations.
Anyway, back from my derailing of my own thread there briefly, I have been talking to some of my friends who are very familiar with Star Wars, looking through various books and online resources (Wookieepedia rocks btw) and even been perusing through my FLGS' collection of old WEG SW books (he's asking quite a bit for them or I'd buy them). One of my friends is trying to borrow some SAGA books from a friend of his so I can reference them for feats, force powers and talents to convert into feats and powers. Was even looking at an old Star Wars Galaxies guide for ideas.
At this point I know that I will have the SAGA classes in terms of Soldier, Scout, Noble, and Scoundrel. They've been staples of the game since the first d20 version of SW came out. I may add a Techie and a Medic class as well, just not 100% sure yet. I will have Jedi Guardian (Defender), Jedi Sentinel (Striker), Jedi Consular (Leader), and Jedi Sage (Controller). I may make builds that deviate from those roles though, as I do like the Essentials idea that a single class can cover multiple roles through different builds, despite my disliking of Essentials in general, there are some good ideas here and there.
For the other force traditions like the Jensaari or the Baran Do Sages, I will be making several generic force using classes like Force Warrior, Force Adept, Force Sorcerer and the like. The classes will be fairly bare with a single power per level. In order to build one of those classes you will have to tack on what will amount to an extended theme (one for each tradition) that will add more powers to each level to choose from that will be available to that tradition only.
Also as I already stated in one of my posts above, I will be making several universal powers that any force user can take at any given level, that will level with the character, so no matter when he takes it, it will still be relevant and useful. Alot of those will be the base powers that most force users seem to display, such as the general telekinetic powers, and the mind powers.
I may even do the same with some of the powers for the non-force users. I would think that there are some techniques and such that are basic to the training of using certain weapons. For example, to pull something from D&D - Cleave, the fighter At-Will exploit. It's basically swinging your weapon in a swath in front of you. To me it seems that a warlord, rogue, or a ranger could do that just as easily, so why don't they have access to it without taking a multi-class and a power swap feat? That's one of those powers that could be a universal power and be available to any martial class.
So more to the point for SW - you could take something like Pistol Whip as a power for anyone who has the Martial (to be renamed, something like Tech or the like, but it's any class that is not a force user) power source that is trained in the use of blaster pistols. It's just one of thso epowers that universally could be trained to anyone that has trained extensively with a blaster pistol.
And no that isn't set in stone as a power, it was just an example to show what I am trying to come up with for the system. Thoughts?
Do you have any idea which races you would like to include?
Some of the more recognizable ones for sure - human, wookiee, twi'lek, bothan, ithorian, mon calamarian, duros, rodian, chiss (highly recognizable after the popularity of the Zahn trilogy), devronian, sullustan, gungans, trandoshan, and zabrak to start, with others as they are desired by either the community or my own players. I would also like to possibly come up with a 'build your own' for near-humans and droids.
I am shying away from ewoks because they have never made sense to me as to how or why they would be galavanting around the galaxy. The other race I am iffy on are the gamroeans (sic), as I really don't think they fit as an 'adventuring' race. I have never seen anyone play one of these races, excepting an ewok once, and that was as a joke character. They just don't fit the SW 'adventuring' group paradigm to me, and the only reason I think they made the cut in previous systems is because they have always been available, so tradition was being followed.
Now I am more than willing to keep an open mind on the idea if someone can give me a good reason or example of one that they've seen played in a game in a memorable and successful fashion and not as a joke character.
I would include gamoreans. They are are your generic big strong dumb race. Used as bodyguards for loads of villians, and are great cannon fodder style enemies. They work great for NPCs.
You could almost think of them as space orcs or trolls. (Trandoshans are more space hobgoblins.)
I honeslty think you should make 2 or 3 races, and then come up with guidelines for other races. Then tell your players "If you want another race, make it yourself, bring it to me, and we will write it down as official". That way you get the races people want, and don't have to write up 400+.
For what its worth, I usually play a kel-dor when I play start wars games.
Oh they would definitely be in as NPCs, but that's all I can see them as. Wookiees cover the strong PC race. I don't know maybe I'll go ahead and include them ultimately. As for kel-dor I had forgotten about them and cereans, so thanks for the reminder!
And thats why I am pushing the idea of telling the players to build their own PC races. Maybe you can't see them as a PC race, but your players totally can. Go through this with every race and it takes hours and you don't have all the races people want. Throw out some guidelines and let them go to town, and you are done in an hour or so with exactly the races you need.
I guess it's in how you see things. If you look at the power levels of Epic D&D characters versus how even the most powerful Star Wars characters come off, it's not even close, at least not to me. An epic level sorceror would easily wipe the floor with Palpatine, no questions asked. I am sure we all have a different view of how things are.
As for the project, I got 1-10 for several classes and some races finished before the hard drive it was on crashed permanently (looking back I should have cloud drived that whole hard drive like I had been planning, but c'est la vie). I have since given up on the idea after several discussions with a few other firends. I just never really saw Star Wars as a level based game ultimately and they helped me see that. It's why I ahve always enjoyed the d6 WEG version more. There is however a new Star Wars game being produced by Fantasy Flight Games, you should go to their website and check it out, I personally think it's pretty cool, with a fairly interesting system behind it.
Edit - I will be trying out the Beginner's Set of the new Star Wars with my group this Sunday, if you want I can PM you with a small review.
I honestly think it's comparing apples to oranges really. The Death Star wiped out Alderaan, an entire planet. That same 30th level sorcerer can fight maybe 10 encounters before they have to extended rest. They eventually could wipe out all the creatures on a planet, but... would take awhile. I think with all things considered, star wars has some epic qualities to it. Its just not possible to show everything in the movies and games. But dude did control billions of worlds and stuff. but that's neither here nor there...
Sub-response: Have you by chance tried playing SWTOR? I was thinking if I get around to doing a conversion, could use some of those powers, or similar to fill out a level 30 progression.
But my friends are very similar, most of them despise star wars now for gawd knows why. :*( So even if I did do a conversion, I probably wouldn't be able to find many willing to play. :*( however, I still am interested in doing something... if I can get motivated is the biggest problem... that and real life getting in the way. haha
Yeah.. I checked out some of the reviews for it at fantasy flight and... honestly, didn't sound interesting to me. But I'll reserve full judgement once I get a chance to check it out. It was just reviews of beta, so I'm sure plenty of stuffs will change. I hope it does well because I loves me some star wars! :-)
Is anyone still working on this? If so, I'd love to pitch in, and I have some additional ideas that may make conversion easier.
I'd restrict it to levels 1-20, that should be plenty.
Convert a few races to the major races in Star Wars, and then use DM-Player collaboration for some of the more out there racial selections.
Here's some somewhat different ideas about class availability and ability selection:
your class gives you a +2 ability score bonus to whatever it's primary modifier is. Race gives another +2 bonus, out of a choice of 3 stats, but you can't double-up on main attritbute.
I wouldn't worry about Power Source too much, since many classes and roles would cross-over.
You'd have 3 classifications of Armor: Cloth/Robe, Light Armor and Heavy Armor.
All Force users would pick powers from across a wide range. You'd have weapon attacks (lightsaber or blaster) and "implement" attacks which woudl be the general Force powers. Most force powers would be restricted by Heavy Armors.
Damage die is determined by your class, not by the power.
Role doesn't translate as well across, but we can try.
For example, a Jedi Guardian (Defender) uses d10 for Lightsaber attacks, d6 for Force attacks (for when out of armor).
A Consular (Leader, really just mixed-melee and range) would have light or no armor, and use d8 for weapon attacks and d8 for force attacks.
The Sage would have no armor (Ranged leader/controller?), use d8 for force attacks, d6 for weapon attacks.
The Sentinel (Striker) would use d10 for weapon attacks (even using 2 weapons) and then d6 for Force attacks.
The Consular would possibly fit the role of ranged striker too.
You'd have a wide array of powers, arranged not by class, but by primary attribute. It may promote Multiple Attribute Dependency, but there still could be a selection of powers that use Your Highest Attribute instead.
As for Healing- I'd like to steal liberally from the Artificer class and its Healing Infusions. Replace Helaing Infusion for Stims/Bacta patch and you're golden. Force users canalso heal using the midichlorians found in everyone. Force users may provide more healing, but provide fewer leader type bonuses. Or not, haven't worked that out yet.
As for items: I'd take a page out of the KotOR games (even though it was based on 3.5) and have Lightsabers have 3 slots for upgrades, 2 of which have always on properties and 1 that gives an Encounter/Daily Item power. Armors could have 2 slots, one is a Property, the other is an Encounter/Daily Item Power.
The number of Item slots would be Weapon(s), Armor, Head, Waist, Shield (replacing Neck), Arms, Feet and Implant.
That's just a quick rundown of ideas I have for this. I'd love to work on some class design with people if they're interested.
I'm considering asking one of my current games if they'd like to help design and playtest.
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