Community

 
Jump Menu:
Page 1 of 3  •  1 2 3 Next
Switch to Forum Live View
Locked: Why No Encounter Optimization Forum?
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2011 - 10:39AM #1
Winsee
Date Joined: Jul 18, 2007
Posts: 73
Character optimization is one of the most active sections of the D&D forums and I always wondered why there isn't a forum for encounter optimization.  If players can discuss crazy combos and maximized abilities why isn't there a section for dms to discuss effective, high-end encounter design and strategy?

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2011 - 10:42AM #2
MisterArcane
Date Joined: Apr 21, 2009
Posts: 403
Because making an encounter that'll kill the players is easy.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2011 - 10:43AM #3
mellored
Date Joined: Jul 8, 2008
Posts: 19,515
The DM's job isn't to kill players (that's easy)

The DM's job is to make a fun world.  And there IS a forum for that. 
guides Show
my builds Show

F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter.  With some warlord stuff.  Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch   Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1.  If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation.  5 of these will end anything.  Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways.  Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit.  Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones.  Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2011 - 10:50AM #4
erachima
Date Joined: Sep 4, 2010
Posts: 7,679
Spend the entire budget on exploding minions that drop from the ceiling after the players enter the room. DONE!
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2011 - 10:50AM #5
Kerrus
  • Dragon Slayer
Date Joined: Jan 29, 2008
Posts: 1,428

Jun 17, 2011 -- 10:39AM, Winsee wrote:

Character optimization is one of the most active sections of the D&D forums and I always wondered why there isn't a forum for encounter optimization.  If players can discuss crazy combos and maximized abilities why isn't there a section for dms to discuss effective, high-end encounter design and strategy?






Because players have to work within the rules.

The DM doesn't.

Oh Content, where art thou?
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2011 - 10:57AM #6
Winsee
Date Joined: Jul 18, 2007
Posts: 73

Jun 17, 2011 -- 10:43AM, mellored wrote:

The DM's job isn't to kill players (that's easy)

The DM's job is to make a fun world.  And there IS a forum for that. 





I would suggest that the player's job is not to create the most statisticly powerful characters possible, but that is a large part of what this forum does.

It could even be said that if the DM has succeeded at creating a fun, balanced world then charcater optimization would become unnecessary. 

Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2011 - 11:15AM #7
Bohrdumb
Date Joined: Mar 31, 2010
Posts: 1,989
Before this turns into a 'optimization is bad'/'no it isn't' thread I'll throw in my 2 cents...

I think an optimized encounter gives the players a number of things to juggle while being defeatable. An example might be, fighting a bunch of guys mounted on birds, while the PCs are on a cumbling bridge across a large chasm that has a few harpoon turrets(with a pull feature) on the bridge supports, and the air floating up from the chasm is noxious...

This is the kind of stuff that makes combat more interesting for players, at least the players I know. And if we're looking to optimize something like that, by all means.

If the goal however, is kill the players, that's easily done as mentioned above.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2011 - 11:16AM #8
erachima
Date Joined: Sep 4, 2010
Posts: 7,679
Look here.

If you wanted an answer, you have your answer: building exceedingly tough encounters is trivially simple and therefore does not need any particularly detailed discussion. The potentially useful features of an encounter design forum --advice on homebrewed monsters, which written ones work well or poorly, and avoiding common errors in encounter design-- are already freely available in the What's A DM To Do? forum, which has a helpful and active community and which you will find somewhat further down the page. You aren't going to get a different answer by bumping the thread up more.

If you didn't want an answer, don't have a bona fide question, and are just passive-aggressively whining about player optimization, stop it and leave.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2011 - 11:26AM #9
Mand12
Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010
Posts: 17,071
I would argue that given the acknowledgement of the responsibility of the DM to be architect of the story would lead to the conclusion that "optimal" encounter design is a little more complicated than "rocks exploding minions fall, everybody dies."  "Optimal" for a DM means something different than it does for a player.  Players are encouraged to let their best shine through.  DMs are encouraged to let them.

Encounter optimization absolutely has a place, and can be a strong influence on the enjoyment of the group as a whole.  It's easy enough to say, hm, three elites and two standards, what exp budget is that?  It's a lot more to actually optimize the encounter.  I'd posit some starting questions:

1)  What is the intended level of danger for the encounter?  Should the players feel like they're about to die if they don't handle things properly?  Easy example is a BBEG battle at the end of a tier, say.  Your players should right well expect something challenging, and for the BBEG to kill them and continue on his BBEG ways should they fail.  This links in with dungeon and campaign design, as you may want several less-than-threatening encounters whittling away resources before a large fight, or one burn-all-your-dailies slugfest, or even a grueling gauntlet with nothing but anklebiters.  But the important point is that this is the first step.

2)  How likely is the difficulty of the encounter going to match the intended level of danger?  This is a trickier thing.  4e did it much better with having more streamlined stats and expected power values for monsters, so when you get a L+2 exp budget, you can be reasonably assured that it'll behave the way all the other L+2 exp budgets have.  But there are subtleties and tricks to using monsters properly, just as there are to using player characters properly.  How merciful or merciless you are within your experience budget can be adjusted on the fly as you play, so keep that in mind when using monsters with either potentially swingy or more or less fixed abilities.  As one example I played recently, two parties of about even competence resulted in completely different experiences.  One party absolutely crushed the encounter (as in the named boss didn't even get to make an attack), and the other party was TPK'd based on how ruthlessly the DM focus-fired the ghoul status effects involved (one hit immobilized (save ends), hitting an immobilized target stuns (save ends)).  Playing the monsters "smartest" isn't always the optimal choice, not it if gets them TPK'd on something that wasn't supposed to be TPK-level dangerous.

3)  How satisfying is the actual dispatching of the monsters relative to their threat?  People talk about risk-reward relationships, and things like "have good loot behind hard things" and such, but there's a satisfaction involved in solidly shutting down and dispatching a monster that does bad things to you.  Give your monsters weaknesses, and let your players know about them in knowledge checks or through subtle hints beyond that.  Vulnerability is an easy, boring example, but it works in a pinch.  Other examples might be skirmishers that have very specific lines of movement.  Let the players block their movement, and reduce the threat.  You can choose a monster out of the Monster Manual and drop it into a room, but it doesn't turn into a satisfying experience until you design the encounter around it.  What tricks does it have, when does it use them, how do the players find out about it and how do they shut it down?  These are the sort of questions that truly optimize encounters, turning from *yawn* we killed a bugbear to "Yeah, we totally smoked that bugbear!  But look what it did to the wizard first..."

EncOp isn't as simple a question as some might think, and it's distinct and separate from world design.  It may be covered in What's a DM to Do? but I don't frequent there much myself. 
D&D Next = D&D:  Quantum Edition
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  Jun 17, 2011 - 11:48AM #10
Winsee
Date Joined: Jul 18, 2007
Posts: 73

@erachima

I have respect for optimization.  I just also know that some builds can put out multiple times more damage/healing/control than an "average" character and figured that at some level of character optimization creating challenging level appropriate encounters becomes harder.  If that premise was wrong then I see that there wouldn't be a need for optimized encounter discussions.



Is the consensus that it should be easy for a DM to create encounters that challenge even highly optimized characters that don't require leveling up the encounter or using special shenanigans like flying monsters, suprise, or ridiculous terrain?


@Mand12

You laid things out a little more thoroughly than I have.  That is what I was asking

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 3  •  1 2 3 Next
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing