So, I'm inspired to make an evil-race campaign where the players play one of the 'evil' races. I've done it small-scale before, but only half-assedly and never with the intention of making a lengthy campaign. In order to make them playable I want to bring some of the more normal races up to player character race standards. Here is what I've got so far. Does this look overpowered in comparison with the 'normal' races? I want to add race-specific feats and stuff, pluss get all the extra goodies for the Kobolds from the dragon-books.
I just got married, 16.7.2011, to a sexy librarian :D Suck it fate, there's no justice in the real world. There's no way I deserve this -------------- The most interesting rules always kinda taste like lasagna
I'd say goblins ARE playable straight from the SRD. Small sized without the normal speed penalty that comes along with it goes a long ways towards making a pretty good rogue. The small size also is a boon to any Goblin Wizards that may come along and doesn't hurt the divine casters. The CHA penalty may hurt them as spontaneous arcane casters and the size/STR don't help with weapons but otherwise they work even if they aren't spectacular.
To me the biggest issue with the Gnoll is its racial HD. If they only had one HD which would be replaced by a class level then the STR and CON bonuses along with the +1 natural armor could justify the +1 LA (although it may be a weak +1 LA) but forcing two level of humaniod on them makes them unplayable. Even if it didn't have LA I wouldn't play it as a humanoid 2 but without that I would almost consider playing it as an LA +1. I know that without the HD it looks a lot like the Orc but a Gnoll gets one more +2, one fewer -2, +1 natural armor, and doens't have the orc's light sensitivity.
I'd say goblins ARE playable straight from the SRD. Small sized without the normal speed penalty that comes along with it goes a long ways towards making a pretty good rogue. The small size also is a boon to any Goblin Wizards that may come along and doesn't hurt the divine casters. The CHA penalty may hurt them as spontaneous arcane casters and the size/STR don't help with weapons but otherwise they work even if they aren't spectacular.
To me the biggest issue with the Gnoll is its racial HD. If they only had one HD which would be replaced by a class level then the STR and CON bonuses along with the +1 natural armor could justify the +1 LA (although it may be a weak +1 LA) but forcing two level of humaniod on them makes them unplayable. Even if it didn't have LA I wouldn't play it as a humanoid 2 but without that I would almost consider playing it as an LA +1. I know that without the HD it looks a lot like the Orc but a Gnoll gets one more +2, one fewer -2, +1 natural armor, and doens't have the orc's light sensitivity.
I almost agree with you. Of the different goblinoid races the goblin is one of the better ones. They still have some suckness to them that I do not like. That they have a 30' speed although they are small is a massive boon. I still wouldn't say that that extra 10' speed quite match the full list of bonuses the halfling gets, from save bonuses, hit bonuses and skill bonuses; in addition to being attribute neutral. This is however the race I've done the least with (I think), just adding some minor fluff (bonus to handling wolves, worgen and wolverines) and an extra +1 to hit in any position in which they could gain sneak attack bonus damageif they had it.
I've added some juice to the Gnoll's racial HD. To me the Gnoll's attributes (of course) do warrant the +1 LA, but the two hit dice of suckness are a completely unwarranted drawback. (I do see that it's needed for them as monsters, but it means that they're less playable as characters.) I thus have added some powers that should make it so that the two HD could've been levels (almost) giving what to me is small Gnoll-like bonuses. The same goes for the bugbear, although their attributes are very good, and their natural armor is very good. I still felt that they're not reall more than a +1LA in base, which means that their 3 humanoid HD is a major drawback. I've given them some juice that should make them competative as level 4 characters.
One of the worst ones, balance wise I think is the Hobgoblin. Their attributes make them obviously not ECL+0, but also not at all worth ECL+1. This makes me want to give them lots of stuffTM , and I'm afraid that I might add to much stuff. There's also the issue of my love for them as a concept x)
I still need some major work on the kobolds, but I haven't yet added all the fun stuff from the Draconomicon (at least I think that's the book I'm thinking about) which gives them lots of additional options, including the dragon age-category tweak which breaks them completely if the DM does not care at all about balance.
I do want the races to be balanced towards the normal player races, and I know that I can be a bit 'enthusiastic' about making new stuff. Any comment about power levels would be appreciated. The full list of races and changes can be found if you follow the link in the first post.
I just got married, 16.7.2011, to a sexy librarian :D Suck it fate, there's no justice in the real world. There's no way I deserve this -------------- The most interesting rules always kinda taste like lasagna
For my own campaign, I made hobgoblins into a human-goblin crossbreed that was used as a warrior caste by an ancient empire. The standard hobgoblins from core material are the rare result of natural interbreeding, while the vast majority are the leftovers of selectively-bred warriors from ages past. Because they're a human-goblin mix, the abilities I chose to add have more of a human flexibility tilt, but it's interesting to see what someone else does with them.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
I'm going to admit I didn't open the document you are linking to so I don't know what you're trying to do with the various races. I'll admit there are minor things that could be added that are mostly flavor without doing much harm.
The Bugbear shares the Gnoll's problem of getting saddled with the truely horrible "humanoid" hit dice. In all honesty levels in "giant" aren't much better. I think you're best off just dropping the racial HD from the Gnoll and having it be a flat +1 LA species. When I look at the Bugbear I see more of the same but DO think it needs something because it's LA +1 would be buying more if the HD were just dropped. I'm not entirely sure what to do about the racial humanoid HD; I consider Dragon and Outsider HD to be worth their cost and would even accept Monsterous Humanoid but for a humanoid giving only getting the 3/4 BAB and only getting one good save and two skill points sucks.
My "solution" to the Hobgoblin LA problem is to DROP the LA but also lower their initial point buy for stats by four points to compensate. "But isn't that just like removing their racial stat adjustments?" Yes and no. Yes because you could leave the unadjusted DEX and CON at 12 or less and with the racial +2 you're at the same value you could have purchase using PB. No because your "minimum" DEX and CON now become 10 instead of 8 (granted I never have them lower that this when I use PB) but also because you can now "buy" a 15 or 16 at a discount; if you start with a 14, adjusted to a 16, in either DEX or CON (neither of which is a bad stat for anyone) you've made up the lost points and if both abilities are 14+ after adjustments you've come out ahead.
I'm going to admit I didn't open the document you are linking to so I don't know what you're trying to do with the various races. I'll admit there are minor things that could be added that are mostly flavor without doing much harm.
The Bugbear shares the Gnoll's problem of getting saddled with the truely horrible "humanoid" hit dice. In all honesty levels in "giant" aren't much better. I think you're best off just dropping the racial HD from the Gnoll and having it be a flat +1 LA species. When I look at the Bugbear I see more of the same but DO think it needs something because it's LA +1 would be buying more if the HD were just dropped. I'm not entirely sure what to do about the racial humanoid HD; I consider Dragon and Outsider HD to be worth their cost and would even accept Monsterous Humanoid but for a humanoid giving only getting the 3/4 BAB and only getting one good save and two skill points sucks.
My "solution" to the Hobgoblin LA problem is to DROP the LA but also lower their initial point buy for stats by four points to compensate. "But isn't that just like removing their racial stat adjustments?" Yes and no. Yes because you could leave the unadjusted DEX and CON at 12 or less and with the racial +2 you're at the same value you could have purchase using PB. No because your "minimum" DEX and CON now become 10 instead of 8 (granted I never have them lower that this when I use PB) but also because you can now "buy" a 15 or 16 at a discount; if you start with a 14, adjusted to a 16, in either DEX or CON (neither of which is a bad stat for anyone) you've made up the lost points and if both abilities are 14+ after adjustments you've come out ahead.
I agree with you completely on the humanoid hit dice suckage. One of the main reasons I seldom consider using a monster race with hit dice is that it is balanced in a way that equates the monster hit dice with class levels; and of course they're not equal. Humanoid and Giant levels are slightly worse than a cleric class that is unchanged except for the complete loss of spell casting, domains and turning undead.
I say slightly worse because the racial hit dice don't have the clerics' broad range of skills to chose from, and also has reflex high instead of fortitude and for me it's more important to not die instantaneously from a finger of death than suffer 24 points of fire damage extra from a fire ball.
I've kept the humanoid hit dice because I try not to deviate too much from the core rules; I don't want the player who plays a Gnoll feel like he's almost as tough as a regular gnoll. Player characters should normally in D&D be heroic and better than the common peons.
One idea that I did toy with once (but sort of forgot about until just now) was to allow the players to replace a monster hit die with a class level every time they leveled up, in addition to getting a normal class level of course. So a Gnoll who reached 4th level would not only get his first level in, for example, ranger, but could also trade in on of his humanoid hit dice for an additional level in ranger, meaning that he at level 4 has 1 level of humanoid and 2 levels of ranger. At 5th level he wouldn't have any humanoid hit dice left.
I've taken a different approach here though, opting instead to trying to bring the different races up to a level where they would be competative as options for the level they are usable from, or at least a few levels after that. For the orc this means that he needs many different powers. Although he is a melee power house there is so little else to the race, no other special anythings, that they are not only boring but simply less powerful than other options in most scenarios. The same goes for the Kobold (although they have gotten some love) and the Goblin (although they are not exactly bad, just a little boring).
Of course, a similar comparison cannot be made for Hobgoblins, Bugbears, Gnolls or Ogres, since they are all superior in some way to the other races. But the problem is the cost of LA and monster HD. The Gnoll shouldn't be compaired to an elf. He should be compaired to an elven level 3 ranger, at which point it is not at all superior, rather the opposite. The Gnoll has two more damage in melee, but less hit points and a lot fewer combat options; including fewer attacks and/or ranged damage, as well as lacking proficiencies with most armor and weapons available to the ranger. And no animal companion. And fewer skills. And that is a good comparison for the Gnoll. And they will never catch up with the elven Ranger on anything but hit points (which actually catches up pretty fast).
The story is similar for Bugbears and Hobgoblins (which I'd say do the worst of all), while the Ogre sort of makes up for his loss of BAB, skills, saves, special abilities and so forth by being ridiculously strong. So balancing the Ogre would for me be more about creating fluff-bonuses, story elements and options other than Melee Smash!. Maybe a slightly different Melee Smash!, or..something. I have to think about that one. Ogres might be one-dimensional but they're so very good at what they do.
The reduction of points for the creation of Hobgoblins is an interesting one (although I've never used the attribute buying system myself as a DM, favouring instead dealing out a fixed set of 6 attribute values that the players can put where they want). It's food for thought, I could ´definately see that working for this campaign.
I just got married, 16.7.2011, to a sexy librarian :D Suck it fate, there's no justice in the real world. There's no way I deserve this -------------- The most interesting rules always kinda taste like lasagna
I would consider getting Savage Species if you don't already have it? Races of the Dragon has several ways pf upgrading kobolds
Thanks. I have both books. Savage species deals with one of the issues of ECL, which is the starting level. Other than that it fleshes out one of the races I was thinking about using, namely the ogre. The other normal greenskin races are left completely untouched.
I have Races of the Dragon somewhere in my library It will certainly see some good use if one of the players wants to play a Kobold. (although no Great Wyrm epic level 1-cheating for him)
I just got married, 16.7.2011, to a sexy librarian :D Suck it fate, there's no justice in the real world. There's no way I deserve this -------------- The most interesting rules always kinda taste like lasagna
Rather then use the Ogre why not the Half-Ogre from Races of Destiny?
And for Orcs I have always thought they were good enough to apply a template such Draconic or Half-Dragon (some thing with a strength boost). If you did some thing similar (more strength and some LA) they would be appealing enough.
And for the other races what if you did something similar to how the drow monster class was handled in Drow of the Underdark. By that I mean just give them some of their racial abilities on their first level and drop the racial HD and let them gain class features from their first level of a class then next level give them more racial abilities but no class features the level after that racial abilities but no class features, continue until they get all their racial abilities. This ends up basically giving them LA with no HD but keeps them ahead of most npcs due to class features (or at least make them unique among their people).
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The two editions are very different...and make for two different games.
In general, 3.0/3.5 is built around more-or-less full freedom in terms of character customization. In contrast, 4.0 is built around balance and ease of play. Honestly, I think WotC should have maintained both lines as parallel games.
(real life friends came up with this not me) The Resident Nonexistant Antichrist Neanderthal Amish Werewolf Jesus Delusion.
I agree with you completely on the humanoid hit dice suckage. One of the main reasons I seldom consider using a monster race with hit dice is that it is balanced in a way that equates the monster hit dice with class levels; and of course they're not equal. Humanoid and Giant levels are slightly worse than a cleric class that is unchanged except for the complete loss of spell casting, domains and turning undead.
Just to drive this particular point home (and agree with it), the Hit Die with the worst features belongs to the wizard (1/2 BAB, one good save, 2 skill points, and d4 hp), since at least construct and ooze Hit Dice have strengths. The vast majority of the difference in usefulness derives from the class features (or special abilities, for monsters) packaged with those Hit Dice.
In theory, Level Adjustment accomodates the imbalance, it's just frequently wrong. Thinking about it, though, I have to wonder which classes were used for comparison. An accurate comparison with things like the fighter or ranger would look very different to one based on comparison with the druid or wizard.
The kraken stirs. And ten billion sushi dinners cry out for vengeance. - Good Omens
= My most popular campaign item; for all your adventuring convenience.Show
Zauber's Mutable Rod: This rod has a number of useful functions that make it easier to live in the wilderness. It is made of polished wood, with five studlike buttons on one end. Each button produces a different effect when pressed. Unless otherwise noted, the rod’s functions have no limit on the number of times they can be employed. • When button 1 is pressed, one end of the rod produces a small flame, equivalent to a candle. • When button 2 is pressed, the rod unfolds into a two-person tent, complete with bedrolls and warm blankets. • When button 3 is pressed, the rod becomes a one-handed hammer, suitable for pounding pitons into a wall. • When button 4 is pressed, the rod becomes a sturdy iron spade. • When button 5 is pressed, the rod becomes a wooden bucket able to hold 2 gallons of liquid. Once per day, it can be commanded to fill with fresh water. If the rod is seriously damaged or broken in any of its alternate forms (button 2, 3, 4, or 5), it reverts to its basic rod form and cannot be activated for 24 hours. Moderate conjuration; CL 9th; Craft Rod, minor creation; Price 375 gp; Weight 2 lb.
