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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2011 - 3:01PM
#1
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In classifying skills I think it would be helpful if there was a general concensus as to how powerful each skill is. Obviously this is very subjective, but I'm hoping to get an overall balance and then maybe add notes for OP examples. Could you please suggest colors/reasoning for colors? Here is what I have so far: Acrobatics: Walking on a tightrope, fighting on ice, balancing, and reducing falling damage (which can only be done trained). Can be utterly overpowered if heavily optimized also more details. Arcana: Knowledge skill plus much more. Also useful for rituals. Can be really amazing in the right hands - Sage of Ages or substituting arcana for other checks. Athletics: Jump/climb/swim. Bluff: Overall useful Face skill. Diplomacy: Overall useful Face skill. Dungeoneering: Another knowledge skill. Forage can be worthless if you have Everlasting Provisions(level 4 Wondrous). Endurance: For disease resistance and surviving nature. Diseases can be handled through rituals though. Opens a lot of really solid skill powers. Heal: Heal is reasonably useful at low levels, but later, it seems to just disappear, except as a secondary skill in some skill challenges. Just train out of it, find something more useful. History: Another knowledge skill. Insight: A fantastic skill for any Wis-based class. Intimidate: Overall useful Face skill. Can be amazing in combat(make bloodied surrender) if optimized for it. Also opens up Rattling Nature: Another knowledge skill. Also useful for rituals. Forage can be worthless if you have Everlasting Provisions(level 4 Wondrous). Perception: A fantastic skill for any Wis-based class. "The best skill in the game" Religion: Another knowledge skill. Also useful for rituals. Stealth: In general unless the whole party has it trained then it is useless. Some parties/situations could benefit from having a scout. Can be essential for rogues and stealthy builds. Streetwise: Used for obtaining information. Why wasn't it rolled into Diplomacy? Thievery: Disabling traps can be important for every group - depends on DM. Lack of Thievery never stopped a group from continuing an adventure. In the case of traps, they take some damage, and keep trucking, no biggie. Unless the DM deliberately makes Thievery important, it doesn't appear to be within the current design of 4e encounters. Strangely in some campaigns, at low levels there seem to be more traps, and at higher levels the traps either vanish or with action economy the way it is, people feel they are better off ignoring traps even when they are trained in Thievery. So it's another skill you could start with at low levels, but then train it out when you realize you're never using it.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2011 - 3:08PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2009
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In classifying skills I think it would be helpful if there was a general concensus as to how powerful each skill is. Obviously this is very subjective, but I'm hoping to get an overall balance and then maybe add notes for OP examples.
Could you please suggest colors/reasoning for colors? Here is what I have so far:
Acrobatics(Dex): Athletics is better.
Arcana(Int): Knowledge skill Plus much more. Also useful for rituals. Can be Amazing in the right hands - Sage of Ages or substituting arcana for other checks.
Athletics(Str): Jump/climb
Bluff(Cha): Overall useful Face skill.
Diplomacy(Cha): Overall useful Face skill.
Dungeoneering(Wis): Another knowledge skill. Also useful for rituals.
Endurance(Con): For disease resistance and surviving nature
Heal(Wis): Help the group get up when the healer falls.
History(Int): Another knowledge skill.
Insight(Wis): A fantastic skill for any Wis-based class.
Intimidate(Cha): Overall useful Face skill.
Nature(Int) Another knowledge skill. Also useful for rituals.
Perception(Wis): A fantastic skill for any Wis-based class.
Religion(Wis): Another knowledge skill. Also useful for rituals.
Stealth(Dex): Having a scout for the group is helpful.
Streetwise(Dex): Used for obtaining information. Why wasn't it rolled into Diplomacy?
Thievery(Dex): Disabling traps can be important for every group - depends on DM.
Honestly, I think this is a little too subjective of a task to take up in the way you did.
Instead of rating their usefulness based solely on how they might be used in a given campaign, can I suggest rating their usefulness based on how effective they are for the options they unlock? Such as rating Thievery Sky Blue for the ability to get you Fast Hands, or Acrobatics Sky Blue for the various rogue "Requires training in Acrobatics" utility powers they have. Seems a little bit easier to rate them objectively that way.
That said, I haven't seen too many skill challenges where Insight was remotely useful. Maybe your DM has NPCs lie more than I find occurs in my games.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2011 - 3:08PM
#3
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It depends on the DM. Some DMs make you roll Perception for everything, and some like me barely touch it. I can tell you from playing a lot of RPGA the big skills are Athletics(any generic physical activity), Arcana, Diplomacy, Perception, and Thievery.
...whatever
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2011 - 3:11PM
#4
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As I said: It's hugely subjective.
But in rating anything that has to do with skills it is important to know their base power level. In terms of things that skills unlock like skill powers: it is beyond the scope of my current desire of knowledge. If anyone wants to contribute that I'll happily add it, but it's a lot of work.
My ratings for perception and insight are based on many people on these forums saying they are probably the best skills in the game.
Please feel free to suggest tweaking them.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2011 - 3:16PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2010
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In classifying skills I think it would be helpful if there was a general concensus as to how powerful each skill is. Obviously this is very subjective, but I'm hoping to get an overall balance and then maybe add notes for OP examples.
Could you please suggest colors/reasoning for colors? Here is what I have so far:
Acrobatics(Dex): Athletics is better.
Arcana(Int): Knowledge skill Plus much more. Also useful for rituals. Can be Amazing in the right hands - Sage of Ages or substituting arcana for other checks.
Athletics(Str): Jump/climb
Bluff(Cha): Overall useful Face skill.
Diplomacy(Cha): Overall useful Face skill.
Dungeoneering(Wis): Another knowledge skill. Also useful for rituals.
Endurance(Con): For disease resistance and surviving nature
Heal(Wis): Help the group get up when the healer falls.
History(Int): Another knowledge skill.
Insight(Wis): A fantastic skill for any Wis-based class.
Intimidate(Cha): Overall useful Face skill.
Nature(Int) Another knowledge skill. Also useful for rituals.
Perception(Wis): A fantastic skill for any Wis-based class.
Religion(Wis): Another knowledge skill. Also useful for rituals.
Stealth(Dex): Having a scout for the group is helpful.
Streetwise(Dex): Used for obtaining information. Why wasn't it rolled into Diplomacy?
Thievery(Dex): Disabling traps can be important for every group - depends on DM.
Streetwise is cha based
Intimidate should probably remain blue, but you should mention the in-combat use (to make a bloodied enemy surrender, very DM dependent), and the fact that some DMs will treat it as an auto fail in some skill challenges (if the party is clearly no threat, or the person you're talking to is looking for any excuse to fight).
Acrobatics is notable for reducing falling damage, which you can only do if trained.
History should probably rank below the other knowledge skills, since it has no use for monster knowledge, or ritual use, maybe make it purple.
Ignoring skill powers is probably a mistake, since they're a large source of utility for skills (and bumps history up to the same level as the other knowledge skills for Strategic Epiphany alone)
"I am the seeker, I am the stalker, I am the walrus"
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2011 - 3:26PM
#6
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History should probably rank below the other knowledge skills, since it has no use for monster knowledge, or ritual use, maybe make it purple.
From my understanding it can act as a game info check. If you read the description it can be useful for all sorts of things. Also much easier to obtain info than streetwise. I'd say a solid black.
To measure Nature and Dungeoneering there are tons of low level items that can cancel out the usefulness of foraging (magical picnic basket with enough food for 5 for 24hrs in everlasting provisions).
I agree nature is more useful than dungeoneering and history. working out the colors now.
Ignoring skill powers is probably a mistake, since they're a large source of utility for skills (and bumps history up to the same level as the other knowledge skills for Strategic Epiphany alone)
Again, this is beyond my desired level of generalization. It would be great to have, but too much work for me to undertake.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2011 - 3:29PM
#7
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If I was going to rank them solely based on skill use:
Tier 1
Arcana
Athletics
Diplomacy
Nature
Perception
Thievery
Tier 2
Bluff
Insight
Intimidate
Stealth
Tier 3
Dungeoneering
Endurance
Heal
History
Religion
Tier 4
Acrobatics
Streetwise
...whatever
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2011 - 3:34PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2010
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History should probably rank below the other knowledge skills, since it has no use for monster knowledge, or ritual use, maybe make it purple.
From my understanding it can act as a game info check. If you read the description it can be useful for all sorts of things. Also much easier to obtain info than streetwise. I'd say a solid black.
True, but game info is heavily DM dependent, wheras knowing what the monsters you're up against can do is always useful (and the DCs are well defined, and you can gain a mechanical advantage with the Scholar theme), so monster knowledge checks should be rated above game knowledge checks IMO. The relative ease compared to streetwise is entirely dependent on the DM, and what you're trying to find out. History will be good to tell you the importance of the noble family, and any possible enemies, but streetwise will let you know what rumours are circulating after their bastard son was found stabbed to death in the street.
Depending on the campaign, losing pursuers by finding shortcuts through the city might be more useful than inspiring armies with tales of their forebears.
"I am the seeker, I am the stalker, I am the walrus"
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2011 - 3:38PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Mar 25, 2009
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Athletics or Acrobatics also can be used to, if not break, then badly bend the game. Especially in dungeon crawls:
Level 12
Halfling Rogue/Master Infiltrator
Str X, Con X, Dex 21, Int X, Wis X, Cha 21
Background: Hellion
Feats
Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
Duelist's Panache
Powers
U6: Force of Kord
Items
9: Dynamic Belt
12: Nimble Shoes
Acrobatics skill: +32 (+6 level +5 Dex +5 Duelist +2 racial +2 background +2 item +3 feat +2PP +5 trained)
Athletics skill: +32 (Nimble Shoes)
Change to break down or burst:
Any Physical Door: 100%
Adamantine Portcullis: 100%
Adamantine Chains: 95%
Adamantine Box 100%
Wooden Wall 100%
Masonry Wall 90%
3-ft-thick Stone Wall: 50%
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2 years ago ::
Jun 10, 2011 - 3:38PM
#10
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moved some colors around. Mostly aligned with thecasualoblivion's ranking - though I think nature is not skyblue. It is a step above Dungeoneering and History due to ritual usage.
Overall I would consider Dungeoneering and History pretty even. Neither involves rituals. Both are knowledge checks - one is more combat oriented and one is more campaign oriented.
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