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Jun 10, 2011 -- 7:26AM, Azhdeen wrote:

Jun 10, 2011 -- 6:53AM, sinistersp wrote:

My point:

There are powers worded so that you gain a healing bonus without spending a surge, so if they wanted you to gain that bonus without spending a surge, they would have worded it that way.

So yes, the argument goes both ways.

Err, I think this argument is irrelevant, actually. They did word it that way, by saying "as if you spent a healing surge." What you're doing is inferring a different meaning simply because there are other bonuses that apply to all healing and you somehow think that "as if you spent a healing surge" does not actually mean "as if you spent a healing surge."

If CLW is cast on me and I'm not healing as if I spent a healing surge, then what am I doing?

so your part is this discussion is weather gaining your healing surge in HP is 'healing as if i spent a healing surge'?

If you examine the definition of healing surge i think it answers that question itself.

Jun 10, 2011 -- 7:48AM, Azhdeen wrote:

Jun 10, 2011 -- 7:31AM, sinistersp wrote:

so your part is this discussion is weather gaining your healing surge in HP is 'healing as if i spent a healing surge'?

If you examine the definition of healing surge i think it answers that question itself.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Seeing as this entire discussion revolves around including additional effects that grant additional healing when a healing surge is spent, I assumed that including these effects was implied. My mistake.

In either case, "gaining your healing surge in HP" is actually what happens when you use a power that says "regains hit points equal to its healing surge value" such as Healing Infusion: Curative Admixture or Invigorating Shout. It appears you're arguing that "as if you spent a healing surge" is functionally equivalent to "regain hit points equal to its healing surge value", when in plain English, they mean different things.

Are we going in circles now?

Circles?  I am not, i am trying to provide new or a different way to show my points in an effort for you to also see those points.  I understand exactly how you interpret the rules and disagree with it.  and you disagree with me, so you are doing the same.

So to define healing surge:

"When you spend a healing surge, you restore lost hit points to your current hit point total."

So lets insert that definition into the sentence we are discussing:

"Gain hp as if you restore lost hit points to your current hit point total."  the fact that you have an item that has an effect that happens when you spend a healing surge, does not change the definition or effect of a healing surge.

those effects happen WHEN you spend a healing surge, not changing the meaning or effect of a healing surge.  when you gain hp 'as if' you spent a healing surge, those items are entirely irrelevant because you did not spend a healing surge.

its plain english 'when you spend a healing surge . . .", you didnt so you dont get the effect.

I have yet to see anyone demenstrate a similar instance where you gain the benefit without meeting the REQUIREMENT for said benefit.  ill be the first to admit when i feel like someone have given me an smige of proof that i am wrong.

Jun 10, 2011 -- 8:58AM, Tedium wrote:

The problem as far as I see it is that this isn't a case of specific vs general, it's a case of specific vs specific.

(paraphrasing a bit)
You have a specific rule on the power saying "treat this the same way as spending a healing surge" ("gain hp as if you spent a healing surge")
You have a specific rule on the item saying "you get this if and only if you spend a healing surge" ("When you spend a healing surge, gain x extra hp")

The argument seems to be whether the first overrides the second, meaning that the item can't tell that you're not actually spending a surge, since the power should be treated mechanically the same as if you had spent a surge in all cases (that involve gaining hp), or the second overrides the first, meaning that you don't get the bonus, since no surge is actually spent. 

The argument that sinistersp's interpretation would stop you gaining any hit points since the wording on "spend a healing surge" in the RC is the same as that on the items (both are "when you spend a healing surge..." doesn't work, since that's a clear case of specific (the power) vs general (the rule in the RC).

I actually don't think that either interpretation is definitely RAW, and the RAI would seem different for different powers (there's no reason that the designers would intend having an artificer in the party to partially invalidate the item choices of some of the other members, however the intention for the items was quite likely that they only trigger on surge healing, and not on (for example) CLW)

The fact that there is different wording that allows for not getting the extra healing makes no difference to RAW or (what we can guess of) RAI, nor the fact that there aren't powers that use wording that would definitely allow you to get extra healing, since there are multiple ways of phrasing a lot of things, English sentences do not have unique meanings, and nor is there a unique English sentence for each concept.

Personally, I'd lean towards getting the benefits, but I'd say that this was the DMs call, as there is no clear RAI, and the RAW is ambiguous.

so i guess tedium is saying we should agree to disagree?