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Jun 11, 2011 -- 9:01AM, ChaosMage wrote:

Jun 11, 2011 -- 5:53AM, kenjoon wrote:

I was talking about this link.  The question is asked if "Healer's Lore" works with powers that allow you to heal "as if you spent a surge".  The answer: No.

And, for the third time, "Healer's Lore" isn't triggered by "when you spend a healing surge," so it's not relevant to Collar of Recovery and the like.  It's an entirely different discussion than the one we're having.

HEALER'S LORE
When you restore hit points to a creature by using a cleric power that has the healing keyword, add your Wisdom modifier to the hit points regained, but only if the healing involves the creature spending a healing surge.

Collar of Recovery
Property: Gain extra hit points equal to this item’s enhancement bonus when you spend a healing surge to regain hit points.

One ruling that applies to multiple rules.

Edit:  If you had actually read the question you would know that it specifically asked if "Healer's Lore" will add it's bonus to powers that heal "as if you had spent a surge" which is EXACTLY what this debate is about.  I admitted reading that CS response wrong, now it's time for you to say you were wrong, because frankly, you are.

Jun 8, 2011 -- 11:06AM, ChaosMage wrote:

"As if" is an explicit exception; healing the same amount you'd heal on a surge is what healing as if you spent a surge means.

Your analogies aren't matching up with the language in question at all.  If you had a feat, or a power that was an immediate reaction to being knocked prone, that said "you may move as if you weren't prone," then you'd be able to shift just fine.  Acting "as if" something else had happened is in and of itself an explicit exception; you trigger any other rules "as if" something else were true even if it's not.  That's what "as if" MEANS.

No, its not.  In fact, that's the opposite of what it means. 
"Do X as if Y" means "do only X as if Y, despite the fact that Y is still entirely false".  Nothing else that Y entails applies.

In your example, if you also had a power that let you make an MBA as a reaction to being knocked prone, you would still have the -2 for attacking while prone, despite the fact that you can "move as if you weren't prone".  Why?  Because you are, in fact, prone.

If they really wanted you to get the full effect of spending a surge, they should just say something like "gain a healing surge, and immediately spend it to regain hitpoints (even if otherwise unable to spend surges)" rather than "regain hitpoints as if you had spent a healing surge".

Jun 8, 2011 -- 1:07PM, mvincent wrote:

In regard to rules, I would normally interpret "as if" to mean the "the same as", or more specifically "exactly the same as for all purposes, except where indicated otherwise". If it's preceded by a condition (example: "regain hit points as if"), then I would expect it to apply only to that condition ('hit points' in this case), as that is a specified restriction... but I wouldn't make further restrictions unless they were specified; so that statement would seem to encompass any riders specifically related to HP.

Examples:
PHB p.114, Pinpointing Arrow: "You can attack an invisible target as if it wasn’t invisible."... would we limit this to negating concealment, or would we allow other (attack specific) riders like sneak attack, combat advantage, etc.? I would interpret the latter, based on the term "as if".

PHB p.233, Dancing Weapon: "You can deliver basic attacks and attack powers through the dancing weapon as if you were holding it yourself"... I would assume that means that we would treat it as being held for all purposes related specifically to the attack.

PHB p.246, Wavestrider Boots: "You can move across liquid surfaces as if they were normal terrain"... I would interpret this as treating the liquid as normal terrain for all purposes related to movement (also: the word "can" in the phrase denotes this as optional for the wearer).

Another reference, fwiw (i.e. not that it'll neccesarily help):
PHB p.58: "Regaining Hit Points: Some powers allow you or someone else to regain hit points. Sometimes the recipient of this benefit needs to spend a healing surge (page 293), but if a power description includes the wording “as if . . . had spent a healing surge,” then the beneficiary gains the appropriate number of hit points but does not spend a healing surge to do so."

I didn't see anyone respond to my earlier post, so I again want to assert:  in regard to rules, "as if" would normally be interpretted to mean "exactly the same as for all purposes, except where indicated otherwise" (because we don't have a basis to impose further restrictions). Isn't that an established paradigm for exceptions based systems like 4e?

Jun 12, 2011 -- 1:44AM, mvincent wrote:

I didn't see anyone respond to my earlier post, so I again want to assert:  in regard to rules, "as if" would normally be interpretted to mean "exactly the same as for all purposes, except where indicated otherwise" (because we don't have a basis to impose further restrictions). Isn't that an established paradigm for exceptions based system like 4e?

I want to respond to this, but I'm going to wait for Choas to respond to my previous post.  Your comments here seem to be in line with what my previous post is asking, with you being on the side of "they both work".