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2 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2011 - 4:35PM
#391
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XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Date Joined:
May 31, 2003
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I think a few people have a little trouble when it comes to DM & Player respect. Respecting a DM seems to mean, coming from some people, that as long as the DM doesn't tell the player no, then that player has respect for the DM. This is a no no in my opinion and people also need to realize that the DM has the final say so. Now if it is a rule and the DM thinks the rule is one way and a player corrects the DM then that's different. If they DM has made a firm solid decision about something then it is final, unless the player convinces the DM to over turn it.
A DM should never be afraid to make a decision. A good player is someone that understands that the DM isn't always going to yes to everything.
As to the save part and spells working, don't always assume DM's are using monsters straight from the books. Don't shout at me about that Vrock have to roll a 19 or better to save because you memorized the stat block from the Monster Manual. In my games, all the monsters in the books are just the templates.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2011 - 5:19PM
#392
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2007
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As to the save part and spells working, don't always assume DM's are using monsters straight from the books. Don't shout at me about that Vrock have to roll a 19 or better to save because you memorized the stat block from the Monster Manual. In my games, all the monsters in the books are just the templates.
You have a point that I agree with here: Don't memorize monsters because the DM has the right to change them, most easily by just advancing their hit dice or adding some class levels.
I disagree that this has anything to do with the "save part and spells working."
If a DM changes a monster's stats before initative is rolled, then it's all good with me.
If a DM changes a monster's stats after a player has decided how to act based on the description the DM has given, and that change serves to remove any possiblity that the player's decision affect the encounter - whether that player knows the chance or not - then I have a problem.
Example of what I am really saying to try and make it as clear as possible:
DM describes a demon attacking the party, Cleric happens to have prepared Banishment and decides to cast it.
Good: The save is made, and the spell effect is determined by the spell just like the book says that it is... and the DM let's the party have the victory if that's what the dice say, and put's together another encounter that will last longer if this was supposed to be more of a dramatic conflict.
Bad: The DM, wanting a dramatic conflict at this point in the story but having forgotten to make sure beforehand that Banishment wouldn't work, decides not to allow the spell a chance to work.
And in my ideal for a game, the DM never has to worry about this example because there is no such thing as a 1 action encounter - even if you have the best spell for the job ready to go.
Careful, man. That much logic might be illegal on the internet. - Salla
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2 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2011 - 5:27PM
#393
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2007
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If a DM changes a monster's stats before initative is rolled, then it's all good with me.
If a DM changes a monster's stats after a player has decided how to act based on the description the DM has given, and that change serves to remove any possiblity that the player's decision affect the encounter - whether that player knows the chance or not - then I have a problem.
QFT.
-O
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2 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2011 - 5:41PM
#394
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Xguild, i give the GM only as much respect as he gives me. the GM is just another guy at the table, no better or worse then anyone else.
Heh, just another guy at the table.
That is a good one.
I'll have to remember that when I use typical PC tactics against the party, like focus firing and nova rounds with optimised monsters that it is all good cause we are all equal in the Libertarian society of DnD.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
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"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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2 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2011 - 5:57PM
#395
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Xguild, i give the GM only as much respect as he gives me. the GM is just another guy at the table, no better or worse then anyone else.
Heh, just another guy at the table.
That is a good one.
I'll have to remember that when I use typical PC tactics against the party, like focus firing and nova rounds with optimised monsters that it is all good cause we are all equal in the Libertarian society of DnD.
If you don't do that and you're playing 4E, you're selling your players short. As a 4E DM I pride myself on focus firing PCs, Elite monster nova rounds(recently took a level 10 Fighter from full hp to zero in one enemy's turn in an unmodified LFR adventure, thank you), and optimized monsters that synergize with each other as a group. If you aren't scared, I'm not doing my job.
...whatever
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2 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2011 - 7:19PM
#396
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I am amazed this thread is still going and has not devolved into a flame war.
No one wins in the Edition Wars. The whole hobby loses. Wizards did not lose me as a DDI subscriber with the Online CB, they lost me long before that. And I have let my Herald Level GM Status lapse after 8 years. Wizards lack of support and the Edition Wars Trolls that are poorly moderated just managed to take all the fun out of public events. ~~ KT
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2 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2011 - 7:23PM
#397
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I am simply trying to state that the book does now, and always did before, give bad advice.
I feel, and have always felt - even when I had no experience with D&D at all beyond picking up the book to read because it had a cool cover and said it was a game - that the advice was bad.
I can understand how you can think that.
However I feel that if you actually read and understood what the DMG was telling you, then you would make a lot less mistakes.
Indeed I have read about a lot of bad experiences which basically came down to not knowing what the actual rules were. For example, some people thought that you could not reflavour the appearance of your spells in 3.5 without a feat which was wrong - another victim of not reading the rules properly.
It might lead a DM to use it to make sure that, when he genuinely didn't expect an outcome, he knows where to go from there... or it might lead to a DM that never learns anything other than to rely on that method to move things along (like how some people have no idea how to do math without a calculator).
I think the advice should have been focused on how to plan out a campaign that will survive contact with the PCs and the rules of the game (to teach you how to do long division other than by pushing the calculator buttons).
No plan survives contact with the enemy, and likewise no one would read a DMG that tried to plan for all contingencies because that would be a huge tome. Heck, they dont even read the one that we have gotten now.
And to try and bring the cheating on your girlfriend example more clarity:
An intimate relationship is a social contract built around certain things each involved party has agreed upon, whether implicitly or explicitly - things such as monogamy, honest, and so on.
A gaming relationship is a social contract build around certain things each involved party has agreed upon, whether implicitly or explicitly - things such as fairness, honest, and so on.
In both cases, one could use the reasoning that a particular action is okay "because they will never know."
In one case, the intimate relationship, many people would point out that reasoning as bad and claim that the action is still wrong.
In the other case, the gaming relationship, many people in this thread have accepted that reasoning as good and claim that the action is made good by it.
I say that all social contracts deserve the same respect, especially when it comes to this sort of "It's okay as long as no one finds out" reasoning.
I think a better analogy would be drinking directly out of the milk container. It is a victimless crime if no one sees you do it.
But there are always some Nanas around telling you how bad it is to do it, and how they will quit you campaign if they find out that you are doing it, but frankly it is just so much easier then walking all the way over to the cupboard and getting a glass and pouring it out and putting the milk back and then drinking it and having to wash it up afterwards.
I also believe that all parties involved in a gaming relationship are equals - the story is no more mine than it is any other player at the table's. We are all here to tell a story and to have fun, and no one gets more of a say in how that story unfolds or what is or is not fun.
You know everyone being equal is a good in theory, but never works out in practice. I know that they tried to explain that in the DMG (different player types) but that may be a part that you think is bad advice.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
Show
"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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2 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2011 - 7:25PM
#398
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Can there be such a thing as elitist DMs? Have we just seen them?
...whatever
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2 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2011 - 7:29PM
#399
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If you don't do that and you're playing 4E, you're selling your players short. As a 4E DM I pride myself on focus firing PCs, Elite monster nova rounds(recently took a level 10 Fighter from full hp to zero in one enemy's turn in an unmodified LFR adventure, thank you), and optimized monsters that synergize with each other as a group. If you aren't scared, I'm not doing my job.
Yes, since everything is equal then everyone should make up new monsters...I mean, characters every week.
That would be fair, right?
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
Show
"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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2 years ago ::
Jun 16, 2011 - 7:33PM
#400
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Can there be such a thing as elitist DMs? Have we just seen them?
Yeap, pretty elitist to change the rules so that everyone has fun in the game. Cant be having that.
Those damn elitist DMs, they should have learnt their place by now - get back behind your shield, dice monkey and dance.
Yes, your tears do make your embarrassment more sweet for me.
Pro DnD Member of the Axis of Awesome Fighters: Using socks to kill monsters since 2012 DnD Next: Now with more then 4 minutes of Roleplay per gaming hour Spoiler:
Show
"If you can't make an interesting human fighter, then you aren't ready to play anything else yet" Edymnion
"The idea of resting up between encounters to fill-up on hit points and spells struck my meta-gaming nine-year-old as a distinct possibility. "Are you mad?" says my seven-year-old "This place is full of monsters!" "jamesgrahamuk
All characters have a story. Spoiler:
Show
Sometimes that story is short and sometimes it is long. They can be tragic, comic or absurd. Some teach. Some are just to fill the empty spaces in our lives. Rarely it is a transcendent fugue only half remembered but wondered at. And frequently: "it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing." -William Shakespeare
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