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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:12PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2008
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I was reading over the pun-pun thread and I am surprised that a pun-pun hasn't been created for 4th edition.
I was wanting to know is this because he simply cannot exist due to the fact that 4th edition is too balanced, or nobody has the interest in recreating the little bugger.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:13PM
#2
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Too well balanced for that.
The majority of 4e's balance issues consist of options that inordinately suck, not stuff that's brokenly good.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:35PM
#3
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2008
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I was just reading about LordDuskBlade, and I believe if anyone could create Pun-Pun, he could.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:36PM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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I would call that a case of giving me too much credit.  One of the unspoken but certainly implied design goals of 4e is that Pun-Pun (or any of the similar builds) doesn't happen again.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:37PM
#5
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I was just reading about LordDuskBlade, and I believe if anyone could create Pun-Pun, he could.
The crux of Pun-Pun, as I remember it, was the existence of the mechanic for Divine Ranks and Wishes. Nothing of the sort exists in 4e.
Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:37PM
#6
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LDB (and several others) can make a character who novas anything in the game to death, but that's nowhere even approaching pun-pun status.
And actually, the crux of Pun-Pun was the fact that players and monsters ran on the same rules. When that mistake was made, the fact that pun-pun could be designed was simply an exercise in patience. (The specific breaking point it used was the mind-numbingly daft Alter Form.)
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:43PM
#7
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Can someone explain the Pun-Pun to me? I only have experience with 4e, and I have to admit I am very intrigued :D
My Works
Show
My House Rules
Cryptic Commander: a Tiefling Wizard|Warlord - Arcane Wayfarer - Planeshaper that focuses on controlling every creature in an encounter.
Feyknight: A Half-Elf Knight - Gladiator Champion - Marshall of Letherna build that uses Eldritch Strike and the White Lotus Riposte feats to create a decent catch-22 with his mark aura.
Novamancer: a Wizard/Swordmage - Malec-Keth Janissary - Radiant One that specializes in area damage, somewhat item dependent but is capable of massive damage.
the Epic Crit-Fisher: Avenger/Ranger-PMC-Eternal Seeker with a 2,560 damage crit-fishing nova.
Eldritch Slayer: A Slayer - Kulkor - Destined Scion that uses a similar trick to the Knight, combined with Kulkor for some decent DPR.
Polearm Seeker|Fighter: A Seeker|Fighter/Psion - Kensei - Destined Scion build that uses Polearm Momentum to not be super bad.
Generic Runepriest: A generic type Runepriest/Fighter - Hammer of Vengeance - Destined Scion
by RAW, you can't horse into the forge of the dawn titan.
...Couldn't resist.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:45PM
#8
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Pun-pun is a build, or more accurately, family of builds, that gained the ability to grant themselves additional arbitrary abilities, and then used that to become undefeatably powerful. Google it if you want details.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 9:16PM
#9
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Date Joined:
May 15, 2008
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Pun pun hinged on the fact that there was a creature in the game that could give any creature in the game any other power in the game from anything.
Why a creature that could do that needed to be statted out is beyond the realms of common ken. The mere fact that such a creature existed broke the game, pun pun merely made it possible to do as a player.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 9:23PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Nov 16, 2007
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Pun-pun is relative (think on that Einstein!).
You can get together a new bunch of players who make characters and play the game with a new DM. They get up to 12th level, and are having a blast in their cloistered group. Then an experienced player who knows about all the charop tricks joins the group. Well, there is certainly a chance that new player's character will feel like Pun-pun to the newbie players.
Essentials does a good job of "protecting" against poor choices. But you can definitely make poor choices during character creation and leveling up if you're in that cloistered group, and don't realize how the game math works, don't realize expectations of the system, etc.
Even in LFR, I've seen 2 first level characters side by side, one person had an eladrin fey warlock with +3 vs Reflex attacks pretty much across the board (before eladrins got their optional stat bump to Charisma). The other was a human rogue with a +10 vs reflex attack, +12 with frequent CA. The warlock's player goes "dude, how are you doing that, your attack bonus is like 4 times mine?" Later he saw the rogue's 32 hit points, and goes, "You have like 8 more hit points than me? And that's like 4 more points than the dwarf fighter over there. How are you doing that?" The rogue player was politely answering but otherwise staying quiet and starting to feel bad, while others at the table were trying to explain that this is normal. And at one point the eladrin's player realized he was rolling 2d6+3 for damage, and the rogue was rolling something like 1d4+2d8+9. When he heard the +9, I thought he was going to either throttle the rogue's player or tear up his character sheet and leave, an uncomfortable moment to say the least.
So Pun-pun doesn't exist in his old form, but when lack of system mastery meets expertise in system mastery, you may get a similar effect.
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