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2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 1:30PM
#31
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2005
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Can someone explain the Pun-Pun to me? I only have experience with 4e, and I have to admit I am very intrigued :D
community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
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2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 1:32PM
#32
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What is this ... cat-nip for my Kitty Avatar ?!
There's two different "ends" of Pun-pun for 4e.
The one is from the 3.5e side of things: Pun-pun was stronger than all of the 3.5e Deities. These deities were rather largely Nerfed by the Spellplague. How much was Pun-pun nerfed? It's not a real rhetorical question. Pun-pun could not have been nerfed by much, if at all. Most of the changes in 4e from previous editions, would impact Pun-pun not a bit.
The other is from the 4e side of things: Sarrukh exist in 4e. That's the major part of the original infinite power up. 4e Sarrukh's have Rituals that do near, at, or above DM Fiat things. But it's undefined. There is an EpicD that also has uncapped Ritual language. The Master Of Moments assumes that higher level rituals exist, that the MoM can find or get access to. This forces a DM into Fiat mode. Dm has to say something. That might be Yes. That might be No. Not much else does this.
So ... 4e Pun-pun is at or near DM Fiat level of power.
But we have very limited fluff text, and even less crunch text, to explain what this is.
I literally have no idea what any of this means, and it kind of scares me.
He's.... a bit hard to understand. Don't take it personally.
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F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 1:35PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2008
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Well I don't know what this Higher Level Ritual thing is, the Master of Moments eludes me, I've never known what a Sarrukh is, and I don't know what a DM Fiat is, but it sounds like something a DM can do that's all powerful in the game. Sarrukh honestly just reminds me of a green scaley fish man thing, like the Final Fantasy Sahaugin.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 1:49PM
#34
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2006
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I don't know what a DM Fiat is, but it sounds like something a DM can do that's all powerful in the game.
DM fiat is when a DM makes something true in his game by saying it is true, without any outside source (such as a rulebook or fluffbook) saying it is true.
For example, I recently ran a game set in Evereska. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide says that Evereska has a mythal that allows citizens and visitors to walk on vertical surfaces. That's cool and all, but I wanted to take it another step further. So I declared that for this session at least, in Evereska you can as part of a Stand Up action or after completing a square of movement, arbitrarily change which direction is 'down' for you. Also, the mythal has a universal featherfall effect, which I ruled as meaning you take at most 2d10 falling damage no matter how far you fall, and fall at most 50' during a turn instead of 100'.
All of these things were true for that session due to DM fiat. And a great time was had by all. But no, a PC cannot gain the ability to create a zone of subjective gravity when and where they want it. And when some other DM runs a game in Evereska, there's nothing saying they have to treat the mythal's effects the same way.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 2:08PM
#35
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2008
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So I DM Fiat when I say there are Shardminds, Wilden, and Githzerai and Drow in my Dark Sun Campaign although they are not specifically mentioned in the Dark Sun campaign manual, and I think in some cases they might even be stated to be specifically extinct? :O Cool :D
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2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 2:33PM
#36
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2008
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Fiat: an authoritative decree, sanction, or order: a royal fiat. (Dictionary). So yeah, basically when the DM simply makes something so because they have absolute authority. DM Fiat is not a bad thing by itself- it allows you to make really interesting environments, allow things that are not in source material but are fun and balanced, or in some cases, resolve things that either make no sense or are broken. It can of course be abused by simply being an authoritarian dictator, but such is the problem of co-operative experiences- someone can ruin them by not playing nicely.
As to pun-pun: nothing in 4e of any level could ever be as strong as pun-pun was at level 1 shy of them releasing a feat that said "You can do anything everywhere instantly always". Even things at level 30 that literally can never die ever, or are untargetable, or whatever are still infinitely less powerful than pun-pun was.
Pun-pun was one of the three best examples of how arbitrary/unbalanced/silly some of the rules in 3.x were. The other example is the weasel that can kill any town of commoners, or the housecats that can kill wizards. There were crazy silly circumstances like that on both ends of the spectrum.
A note to all who think I am being aggressive or angry- 99% of the time, I do not intend to be. I apologize if you think I am attacking you, odds are very strong that I am not. The only exceptions are when people become extremely uncivil to me, and even then I usually ignore them. I think it is very obvious when I am really mad; if I just seem generally abrasive, it is a reflection of my thought process rather than a state of emotion. I have the greatest respect for those who can debate rationally, even if we come to different conclusions.  I am Blue/White Take The Magic Dual Colour Test - Beta today!Created with Rum and Monkey's Personality Test Generator.I'm both orderly and rational. I value control, information, and order. I love structure and hierarchy, and will actively use whatever power or knowledge I have to maintain it. At best, I am lawful and insightful; at worst, I am bureaucratic and tyrannical.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2011 - 2:50PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2006
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Another example would be the 4e version of The H.I.V.E. Pick up the DMG2. Read the whole thing, until you get to the Cranium Rats entry. And stop. Pick up the DMG. Read the whole thing, until you get to the Monsters can be + or - , up to 5 levels entry. And stop. Pick up the DMG2. Re-read the Cranium Rats entry, knowing you want to reduce the level of each Rat "Unit" by 5 levels. And stop. Re-pick up the DMG. Figure out how to do a level 37 Encounter. Specifically how much Experience points are necessary. Figure out how many exp the (Rat "Unit" - 5 levels) is worth. Calculate (level 37 encounter Exp) divided by (Rat "unit" -5 level exp) ...  That's how many Cranium Rats there are in a level 37 encounter. Side bar --- you could make a level 38 encounter, but expect some whining about that. Now re-read the Cranium Rat entry, looking specifically at the nifty little Rats Love Rats power ... the one that makes it's intelligence go up. (note - Rats Love Rats is not the official name for the power) So right there is the record: (1) ... Int. number (2) ... attack number (3) ... non-infinity damage number (4) ... Int Skills check numbers (5) ... throw in a class template on one of the rat units, and get other weird things going on (5a) ... especially any Utility power that uses a Int based modifier Obviously, somebody on the design team likes The H.I.V.E. more than they like the Sarrukh. (evil grin) But the Sarrukh get DM Fiat, so ... shucks I'll go home now ... 
Hush kitty avatar ... there'll be more Younglings soon.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 06, 2011 - 4:21PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2010
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*snip*
Only so long as you can get an epic character surrounded by them instantly, though leaving them at the bottom of a pit trap might work (so long as it triggers on initiative so the rats can have a readied action up). Or make a few of them warlords, and reorient the axis to give an intelligence modifier shift in close burst 5 (with another levelled up rat swarm with the U22 Quickening Order so that they win initiative, though this does require levelling that swarm up more than 5)
Also note: "A swarm can occupy the same space as another creature", so feel free to pile them up a bit (not all in the same square, don't want to give the wizard too much of an easy time of clearing them) so that they're not limited to +440/+440 each. Since you still get missed on nat 1s, you should still have 35 or so left even if the wizard does burst the lot of them.
"I am the seeker, I am the stalker, I am the walrus"
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