|
2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 11:37PM
#21
|
|
|
Damon_Tor came pretty close for a while, producing a few infinite damage builds. These unfortunately led to the most inelegant errata ever, which broke more than it fixed.
Pun Pun will not rise again, lest he bring destruction down upon the very ruleset which supported him, breaking the normal aspects of everyone else's game as he does so.
Laz
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 11:43PM
#22
|
|
|
I was reading over the pun-pun thread and I am surprised that a pun-pun hasn't been created for 4th edition.
Read Voldemonte in my .sig, you'll be entertained if you liked Pun-Pun.
She can't take damage, be affected by any effect, or even be killed. She can basically kill anything that doesn't just run away from her and her snake.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 1:05AM
#23
|
Date Joined:
Sep 17, 2007
|
As I recall we had the Apocalypse Twins for a while. Those guys were, if not total Pun-Puns by autowinning fights, then very close to it.
Mountain Cleave Rule: You can have any sort of fun, including broken, silly fun, so long as I get to have that fun too (e. g., if you can warp reality with your spells, I can cleave mountains with my blade).
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 7:00AM
#24
|
|
|
I've come up with an infinite action loop, which is currently rules legal (lvl 30, requires a lvl 30 ally).
And there's infinitely increasing defenses (raven consort...).
But that's still no where near pun-pun level.
guides
Show
my builds
Show
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way.
Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken.
Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken.
King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong.
Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.
Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered.
Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square.
Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong.
Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.
Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.
Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.
Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.
Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.
Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.
Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.
Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.
Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.
Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.
The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.
Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power
Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken
Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.
Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.
Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.
Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken.
Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.
Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 9:20AM
#25
|
|
|
Yes, but I think we all know that LordDuskBlade is more powerful than Khan The Destroyer. I have not seen the elusive Khan, yet LDB is a shining symbol to all!
Dammit Ravinsild! Now I have to create a 4th edition Pun-Pun and wipe out all of LDB's nova builds just to prove a point.
And the summer was just getting started too...
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 11:18AM
#26
|
|
|
It's just not possible, 4e is nowhere near the same power level that 3.x was at in terms of permanate gains to characters. Infinite actions is possible, and thus anything that can be done at-will (thanks to Archmage and Academy Master shenanigans, you can even get infinite uses of a daily's miss or effect lines) is possibly infinite (Attacks, Damage, Healing, THP, Saving Throws, Movement, and stackable bonuses to those). But none of that beats pun pun, who has "Heads I win, Tails you lose (su): Flip a coin, if it's heads or tails, the target Dies and can't come back to life by any means."
"Invokers are probably better round after round but Wizard dailies are devastating. Actually, devastating is too light a word. Wizard daily powers are soul crushing, encounter ending, havoc causing pieces of awesome." -AirPower25 Sear the Flesh, Purify the Soul; Harden the Heart, and Improve the Mind; Born of Blood, but Forged by Fire; The MECH warrior reaches perfection. My Guides
Show
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 11:45AM
#27
|
Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
|
"Heads I win, Tails you lose (su): Flip a coin, if it's heads or tails, the target is annihilated and can't reexist by any means."
Fixed that for ya 
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 12:37PM
#28
|
Date Joined:
May 20, 2011
|
The real issue with Pun-Pun was the oddity that was Polymorph (or other spells and psionic powers that are similar). There were certain spells and class features in 1e-3.5e whose power grew passively whenever a new book was released. Metamorphosis (the psionic polymorph) let you turn into any creature that existed in any sourcebook, anywhere. There was a feat that let you use the special abilities of that form. Meaning: any time a new creature with an interesting special ability was released, you got a new power. There were no clear mechanics on how you could "know" a particular polymorphic form, either.
Another interesting situation was the Wizard and Archivist. Both could learn an arbitrary number of spells known, and the Archivist in particular could abuse this pretty effectively. But whenever a new random sourcebook was released, there was new material inherently for your wizard. Whenever some designer created a special domain for their evil cleric of an obscure god (*cough* force domain?) the Archivist chuckled and grew.
Of course, those spells and abilities tend to pre-date the "release all the time!" mentality of Hasbro-WotC. In the good old days (get off my lawn!) people didn't think about how wierd abilities would (a) interact and (b) change with future releases. They also didn't have a monthly service fee to get people to choke down, so they tended not to release errata like D&D was actually a video game.
Ah, those were the days. I mean, nigh-infinite damage loops are great and all, but the theoretical optimization of 3.5e also had great questions like, "How many XP do you get for destroying the world?" (A: all of them) and "What's the Escape Artist DC for crawling up somebody's bunghole?" (A: high enough that when you did, you could use the feature of the Exemplar class to turn everyone who saw you doing that into devoted followers). You could even make a fortune selling ten-foot-poles (which were worth more individually than a 10' ladder, do the math).
Anyway, reminiscing is fun.
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 12:42PM
#29
|
Date Joined:
Dec 22, 2006
|
What is this ... cat-nip for my Kitty Avatar ?!
There's two different "ends" of Pun-pun for 4e.
The one is from the 3.5e side of things: Pun-pun was stronger than all of the 3.5e Deities. These deities were rather largely Nerfed by the Spellplague. How much was Pun-pun nerfed? It's not a real rhetorical question. Pun-pun could not have been nerfed by much, if at all. Most of the changes in 4e from previous editions, would impact Pun-pun not a bit.
The other is from the 4e side of things: Sarrukh exist in 4e. That's the major part of the original infinite power up. 4e Sarrukh's have Rituals that do near, at, or above DM Fiat things. But it's undefined. There is an EpicD that also has uncapped Ritual language. The Master Of Moments assumes that higher level rituals exist, that the MoM can find or get access to. This forces a DM into Fiat mode. Dm has to say something. That might be Yes. That might be No. Not much else does this.
So ... 4e Pun-pun is at or near DM Fiat level of power.
But we have very limited fluff text, and even less crunch text, to explain what this is.
my kitty avatar's Royale Lineage ---> http://static.neatorama.com/images/2009-09/original-keyboard-cats.jpg
new helpful bg/mmx refugee locale ---> http://www.ruleofcool.com/smf/index.php/topic,632.0.html
|
|
|
|
2 years ago ::
Jun 03, 2011 - 1:29PM
#30
|
Date Joined:
Jun 13, 2008
|
What is this ... cat-nip for my Kitty Avatar ?!
There's two different "ends" of Pun-pun for 4e.
The one is from the 3.5e side of things: Pun-pun was stronger than all of the 3.5e Deities. These deities were rather largely Nerfed by the Spellplague. How much was Pun-pun nerfed? It's not a real rhetorical question. Pun-pun could not have been nerfed by much, if at all. Most of the changes in 4e from previous editions, would impact Pun-pun not a bit.
The other is from the 4e side of things: Sarrukh exist in 4e. That's the major part of the original infinite power up. 4e Sarrukh's have Rituals that do near, at, or above DM Fiat things. But it's undefined. There is an EpicD that also has uncapped Ritual language. The Master Of Moments assumes that higher level rituals exist, that the MoM can find or get access to. This forces a DM into Fiat mode. Dm has to say something. That might be Yes. That might be No. Not much else does this.
So ... 4e Pun-pun is at or near DM Fiat level of power.
But we have very limited fluff text, and even less crunch text, to explain what this is.
I literally have no idea what any of this means, and it kind of scares me.
|
|
|
