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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 7:08AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2004
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So the point here is "Start publishing awesome D&D again and I'll pay for it?" I can get behind that. well, if you opt in you will get put in, theres over 9000 in there now
... my time with the internet almost refuses to let this pass without comment, but I think I can restrain myself (though I guess this constitutes a comment, so whatever...)
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 7:15AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2009
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The problem is that while most people can agree on certain points, many people want different things from Wizards in terms of D&D. I respectfully disagree with some points. release Ravenloft and/or more Gamma World
My current group plays homebrew, my previous x groups played homebrew, and most campaigns I have played over the last 20 years have been homebrew. I couldn't care less about additional settings, and I'd be happy to pick from one of the existing settings if I decided to do so. If I really wanted to play Ravenloft, I could pick up the books from a previous edition and adjust for 4e. An argument could be made that the older-edition books might not be readily available, and I would agree with that if not for the following two points: one, you're looking for Ravenloft/Gamma World because you've played them in previous editions (otherwise how do you know about them?), and two, you most likely already own or have access to the older edition books.
let me buy ... PDFs
Very much agreed. Trust your clientel. I own the books, but if you had a PDF service that had all of the updates continually included (a tad tricky due to page layout and the need to keep page numbers consistent for rule lookup, probably solvable with creative movement of fluff boxes and illustrations), I would sign up for a subscription for that service (especially if part of DDI) in a heartbeat.
don’t change the rules all the time
I disagree. There are still things being discovered that don't work [well] or that are broken/abusable. Errata to things that need errata is healthy for the game. Errata for errata's sake is very unhealthy for the game. I wouldn't want there to be a decree that so-and-so rules are "locked in" from here on out regardless of future developments. That would be more likely to make me stop buying 4e than anything else, as that would indicate that innovation for this edition is over.
stable classes (eight total, two of each role)
As many balanced classes as is healthy for the game, IMHO. Fix Vampires and Seekers, get some feat/power support for Runepriest, Seeker, Artificer, etc. Which 8 classes are you going to come up, within the confines of the 4 roles, which won't leave a major archtype uncovered?
stable ...
I'm not sure what you're meaning by "stable". If you mean "static and unchanging", then you're calling the edition dead, which I cannot stand behind. If you mean they should fix the problems, I can get behind that. Obsolete the many feats that are, in fact, obsolete. Finish magic item rarity or remove it. Cook the math into the appropriate tables and remove the associated cruft (expertise).
Spend less time on errata and more on world building and adventure writing.
Couldn't agree less. Spend more time on fixing the mechanics of the game and less time telling us what to imagine.
four to six rulebooks a year
As many rulebooks per year that can be well-produced (content not unplayable like the Vampire, new classes not obsoleting other classes like the Hunter > Seeker) and playtested. I doubt that's 4-6 (probably 4 maximum), but if it's good content I'll buy it.
three to four campaign books
three to four books to the existing worlds each year.
Even if I was into campaigns, this would be too many. Sure, existing settings could be fleshed out more, but one or two books maximum (and I don't mean per year) would be the limit before you'd risk saturating new players with too many choices. As far as new settings, you're not attracting older players to anything they haven't already played, and you're providing too many options for new players when campaigns are generally mutually exclusive.
six good adventures a year (aim for two Heroic, two Paragon, and two Epic).
I agree, more adventures. 5-3-1 heroic-paragon-epic would be a better ratio than 1-1-1 as many campaigns don't make it past x level, and new-to-DnD players want choices they see as quickly usable.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 7:24AM
#13
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That's a tall order, but kudos for taking a stand and not settling for what you feel is not worth your money. Personally, I will resub once I see a working virtual table top.
I know the electronic part of D&D matters to a lot of people as well, but I think Wizards should straighten the game itself out first and then enhance it electronically as a real option. I don't want electronics to be a needed component of D&D but I certainly think it should be a great option for those who like it. But I think putting the electronics first won't work with a tabletop RPG. Wizards might want to consider outsourcing the electronic stuff to experts so everyone can win.
As to the rest, Wizards managed most of the book releases in a similar way in years past. I'm not quite seeing why they couldn't go back to that model.
I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I think I know why they don't outsource. I suspect, strongly mind you, that they want to move into a fully digital arena going forward, which means they can't outsource because that would be outsourcing the whole business. So instead we are watching the pains of a publishing company, with only so much available resources, trying to transition into an online publishing/digital subscription company.
That would explain for me why the online tools are in such a state atm. But I still don't know why 4E is suffering the Sybill/MPD identity crises of WoTC not being able to pick a design direction, its a mess. All the errata, then essentials, then erratta to the essentials, then backpedaling off essentials...kinda. Do we even know what 4E looks like anymore? Does WoTC? So I am in total accord about how fixing that needs to be the top priority right now. Also it would be helpful to address the actual issues with the game (like the mess that is magic items and rituals for instance) instead of them reorganizing and rewritting the whole game and design direction, thereby creating whole different problems instead. My 2 Cents.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 7:25AM
#14
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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Okay, in short you want .pdfs, no errata, more flavorful books (like campaign settings), an more adventures.
I have bad news for you.
Developers have said repeatedly that adventures are loss leaders for them. Not enough people buy them. They have often said that's exactly the sort of thing third-party publishers should be making, because the profit margins make sense for smaller shops, but not for Wizards. So you will only see one or two adventure books a year, tops.
Also, sales of setting materials, other than Forgotten Realms, drop off exponentially after the first two books. That's why they only release two settign books and an adventure for any setting. So I doubt you'll see very much new Gamma World stuff. Maybe Ravenloft will get a setting release (2 books and an adventure) in 2012 or 2013. The only exception is Forgotten Realms which sells sufficiently because it is by far the most popular setting Wizards ever produced. This is one reason Neverwinter nights is getting the campaign setting release this year.
I don't disagree with you about .pdfs, but it seems pretty clear that Wizards has no interest in selling that way. I have no idea why.
And I also don't think you're going to ever see an end to errata. Regular errata is actually one of 4e's selling points. The game is predicated on tight balance, so they are always tinkering with it. Even if they were to release an updated set of corebooks (and the Rules Compendium is sort of that way), it would become obsolete again within a year. I don't foresee this startegy changing for this edition.
Sorry.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 7:32AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jul 28, 2005
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To win me back as a DDI subscriber, there are a few things I would want changed back to how they used to be:
* Offline CB - Yeah been discussed to death but it was a deal breaker for me as I could no longer take my laptop to the game table.
* Offline magazine content - I commute on a van to work, I want something to read on the van ride. Being online exclusively eliminates that ability.
* Better content - I can't really speak to this as I am no longer a subscriber, but the volume of content went down and it seemed like a lot of advertising of product before I stopped my subscription. That would need to improve with more interesting articles and adventure content I could make use of.
Since none of those things are likely to happen, I won't be returning as a subscriber. The model changed, and it no longer fits my needs.
To get me to buy books again, this probably won't happen, but it would need to be mainly adventures/generic campaign content with new poster maps, not reprints of things done in the past, and not maps that are unique to a particular adventure (so I could reuse them). I am done with the splatbook treadmill, and the constantly outclassing prior generation classes... it's power creep and it sucks. More monster books would be the only other thing I could imagine purchasing, and they would need to be unique new monsters, not rehashed critters like was done with the Essentials Monster book.
Perhaps I just burned out a bit on 4E... who knows. I love the game engine, I think it's very well done, but I have been burned out with all the changes that were made to the point where I rarely even look at 4E resources any longer, both in retail and online.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:03AM
#16
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Date Joined:
Apr 13, 2009
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Getting me back as a subscriber would be pretty simple, complex dungeon magazine material bursting with flavor. I would particularly take notice of complex encounters. Any encounter in dungeon that is just some terrain and some random monsters is a waste of time. Give me set piece battles with 6 different things happening and monsters with cool synergy between them that has been play tested so that I have some confidence that all the different moving parts will fit together. Stuff like this: slamdancr.com/wp/2011/05/grind-4e-week-5... even if you don't like save versus death mechanics, this just has a complexity to it that is way beyond 95% of what I saw in dungeon when I subscribed. There needs to be more going on in an encounter than enemies and terrain. I would also love, LOVE dungeon if it provided me with complex and well thought out skill challenges. Imagine a skill challenge that was a chase through a city, and someone thought through all the likely uses of skills one would apply and how which skill the players use and whether they succeed/fail branches the story of the skill challenge. As well as changing primary skills depending on the current situation. Think of it almost as writing a choose your own adventure book. ie, the killer dashes off into the crowded streets. What do you do? primary skill checks: Endurance: chase after him muscling your way through the crowds Acrobatics: perform some parkour stunt to make better progress through the crowd Streetwise: head in a direction you think is a shortcut If the players chose endurance, and succeeded, go to section A. If they failed, section B. If the players chose streetwise, and succeeded, go to section C. where A and C then provide entirely different kinds of situations with different primary skills. Provide some extranous notes and examples on how if your party comes up with something not listed here, how you can work on the fly to determine which section you should guide the story towards. If something is simple enough that I could have come up with it in an hour or so on my own, that is not useful to me. If something is big and complex with lots of moving parts such that it would take me more than a day to write and balance on my own, that is extremely useful. edit: I think I have edited this post something like 15 times now
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:08AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2004
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Okay, in short you want .pdfs, no errata, more flavorful books (like campaign settings), an more adventures.
I have bad news for you.
Developers have said repeatedly that adventures are loss leaders for them. Not enough people buy them. They have often said that's exactly the sort of thing third-party publishers should be making, because the profit margins make sense for smaller shops, but not for Wizards. So you will only see one or two adventure books a year, tops.
Also, sales of setting materials, other than Forgotten Realms, drop off exponentially after the first two books. That's why they only release two settign books and an adventure for any setting. So I doubt you'll see very much new Gamma World stuff. Maybe Ravenloft will get a setting release (2 books and an adventure) in 2012 or 2013. The only exception is Forgotten Realms which sells sufficiently because it is by far the most popular setting Wizards ever produced. This is one reason Neverwinter nights is getting the campaign setting release this year.
I don't disagree with you about .pdfs, but it seems pretty clear that Wizards has no interest in selling that way. I have no idea why.
And I also don't think you're going to ever see an end to errata. Regular errata is actually one of 4e's selling points. The game is predicated on tight balance, so they are always tinkering with it. Even if they were to release an updated set of corebooks (and the Rules Compendium is sort of that way), it would become obsolete again within a year. I don't foresee this startegy changing for this edition.
Sorry.
While Wizards may feel this way about everything you've mentioned, many other game companies do not. I'd say Wizards is unique, especially in regards to PDFs, and not in a good way. In fact, the handful of smaller successful RPG companies do just about everything the opposite way that Wizards does things. I think the way Wizards conducts the business of RPGs is what leads to frustration for its customers and former customers. It isn't 4E that is the problem at all; it is strange business practices and decisions that don't match the expectations many RPG customers have.
Why Wizards thinks these practices secure more sales is likely based on internal numbers and business plans. But I see other small successful RPG companies hiring new staff (Cubicle 7 just hired and Paizo and FFG are hiring), and making more product (same companies have a lot of RPG output) and Wizards not doing either (staying current or shrinking product lines) and I wonder how successful the current Wizard's plan really is.
So I just have to spend my money elsewhere for now. This thread was just thinking out loud about what Wizards could do (I don't think they'll actually listen to me) to get me back as a customer.
Do I think it is going to happen? No. Would I like it to happen and for Wizards to be more like other RPG publishers especially in regards to PDFs? Yes.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 8:54AM
#18
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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many other game companies do not. I'd say Wizards is unique
Wizards is unique. They are the largest RPG company and they only sell things in large volumes. Smaller companies can make do making less money on items that garner fewer sales.
I agree with you on .pdfs. I don't know why they aren't selling them. With respect to the rest of the items mentioned, however, they have been very clear.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 9:40AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Nov 27, 2005
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One of the huge issues is the fact that the "primary purchasing client" is intelligent, all of us like different things and that is hard to market to.
The need to provide content for several different 'worlds' - most of us have a favorite. How many of you have books for FR but run games in your own world. I have books for Eberron, Dark Sun and the Realms but I run games in my own world - pulling from each to make a cool homebrew... but I am at this point where I am content with my ability to just create everything I need. I don't really need new books. I only buy books that offer my players options.
So. With a fan base that is diverse, my age group 30-40 is probably the primary purchasing power of their books. We don't really pirate stuff and actually frown upon it when one of our players says "I have every book made on PDF." - I want my book on the bookshelf. Most of you are probably the same.
What can WotC offer us that would put me back into the spending seat?
1. A 4th Edition version of great classic modules released through the DDI and not .pdf based. Maybe even once a month VT versions of the modules. Charge $1-5 to get the VT import or something. I would spend $5 for a fully completed VT adventure.
2. Spelljammer redone completely for the Astral Sea. Just one book... maybe a book for players and a dm book. It doesn't really need more than that but offer it up.
3. Find a way to embrace the piracy in some way. Almost every company that has found a way to get along with the piracy has turned into a massive hit and has even crossed over into different "client bases". I personally do not like it but I have had players that brag how they have it all and never had to pay a dime. I told them in order to use a character they need to bring the book to the table. He got the PHB but he would never have even ever played if he hadn't pirated books. It sounds counter intuitive but it works.
4. Supporting Brick and Mortar stores as the only people that can host D&D Encounters should stop. Offer it as a DDI thing. Charge a fee to get the materials for the Encounters and allow DCI Judge Gamemasters to host D&D Encounters at home.... for a fee. I would do this because I have around a dozen people I play with all the time with no game store within a one hour drive (that has room to play) - there are a lot of others out there in the same boat.
5. Support DM's - DM's are the voice of Wotc on the streets. We are an unofficial street team that constantly looks for new players, other DM's too and we buy the books, love the game and really create a "Point of Light" from a sales perspective. The DCI Judge stuff (RPGA GM) should support DM's with cool stuff and create perhaps affiliate links for players to purchase the books through them... almost like Avon has sales reps... turn the DM into a street level salesman.
Sorry, it ended up turning into a how can WotC get my money into a how WotC should try to make more money post.
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2 years ago ::
Jun 02, 2011 - 10:08AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2004
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One of the huge issues is the fact that the "primary purchasing client" is intelligent, all of us like different things and that is hard to market to.
The need to provide content for several different 'worlds' - most of us have a favorite. How many of you have books for FR but run games in your own world. I have books for Eberron, Dark Sun and the Realms but I run games in my own world - pulling from each to make a cool homebrew... but I am at this point where I am content with my ability to just create everything I need. I don't really need new books. I only buy books that offer my players options.
So. With a fan base that is diverse, my age group 30-40 is probably the primary purchasing power of their books. We don't really pirate stuff and actually frown upon it when one of our players says "I have every book made on PDF." - I want my book on the bookshelf. Most of you are probably the same.
What can WotC offer us that would put me back into the spending seat?
1. A 4th Edition version of great classic modules released through the DDI and not .pdf based. Maybe even once a month VT versions of the modules. Charge $1-5 to get the VT import or something. I would spend $5 for a fully completed VT adventure.
2. Spelljammer redone completely for the Astral Sea. Just one book... maybe a book for players and a dm book. It doesn't really need more than that but offer it up.
3. Find a way to embrace the piracy in some way. Almost every company that has found a way to get along with the piracy has turned into a massive hit and has even crossed over into different "client bases". I personally do not like it but I have had players that brag how they have it all and never had to pay a dime. I told them in order to use a character they need to bring the book to the table. He got the PHB but he would never have even ever played if he hadn't pirated books. It sounds counter intuitive but it works.
4. Supporting Brick and Mortar stores as the only people that can host D&D Encounters should stop. Offer it as a DDI thing. Charge a fee to get the materials for the Encounters and allow DCI Judge Gamemasters to host D&D Encounters at home.... for a fee. I would do this because I have around a dozen people I play with all the time with no game store within a one hour drive (that has room to play) - there are a lot of others out there in the same boat.
5. Support DM's - DM's are the voice of Wotc on the streets. We are an unofficial street team that constantly looks for new players, other DM's too and we buy the books, love the game and really create a "Point of Light" from a sales perspective. The DCI Judge stuff (RPGA GM) should support DM's with cool stuff and create perhaps affiliate links for players to purchase the books through them... almost like Avon has sales reps... turn the DM into a street level salesman.
Sorry, it ended up turning into a how can WotC get my money into a how WotC should try to make more money post.
I think we're thinking along the sames lines. I don't mind WotC making money (employees have to eat, shareholders have to be fed) and I don't mind paying them if I get what I'm looking for. I'm not expecting something for nothing but more of an even exchange.
As for the DM as salesman, it seems like this should be possible though the character builder. Maybe the DM can have designated players and the players get a discounted character builder without the DM tools and magazines. I agree that anything that helps the street level DM get and keep players can only be good for the gamers, Wizards, and D&D as an RPG.
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