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2 years ago ::
May 23, 2011 - 9:13PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2006
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Legends and Lore
Evolution of the Thiefby Mike Mearls Of all the classes in the game, the thief is the one whose very identity has changed the most over the years. Talk about this column here. 
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2 years ago ::
May 23, 2011 - 9:20PM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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Well, I thought that this was a fair evaluation of how the Thief/Rogue has changed. You can say that the change was not a good one, but I think that Mearls got it right.
"People want balance but can't accept this homogenization that occurs as a result of that balance being implemented. then they complain that the fighter is weaker than the wizard ad nauseam.: - Teitan
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2 years ago ::
May 23, 2011 - 9:26PM
#3
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XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Date Joined:
May 31, 2003
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I believe he was right about what made the thief different and that was the set of skills he had and I believe that they should have stayed with the thief. When those unique skills of his were taken away, he just became another melee combatant who could sneak attack.
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2 years ago ::
May 23, 2011 - 9:30PM
#4
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Hmmm, yeah. Honestly I think looking for traps might well best be made a Thievery function though. Making rogues depend on virtually a dump stat for one of their fairly significant traditional functions is harsh. It also makes the whole Thievery skill less useful.
But anyway, he's right. In fact he understated things, the 1e DMG flat out states that any attempt of a thief to backstab more than once in a fight is doomed to fail. The backstab bonus was a nice feature for a thief but it wasn't ever going to make them effective in combat. The better way for them to go was really as a bow user or throwing daggers/darts. Anyhow there are a dozen ways the 4e situation is overall quite a bit better.
That is not dead which may eternal lie
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2 years ago ::
May 23, 2011 - 9:35PM
#5
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XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek
Date Joined:
May 31, 2003
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When I look at the thief I picture the trap disarming, wall climbing, pocket picking, scoundrel who has lots of tricks up his sleeve and will go the distance to fill his pockets. I think there should be "Skill Specialties" that each class has towards certain skills. I know everyone can use these skills but make some of them go just that little extra mile when dealing with a certain class that isn't open to other classes.
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2 years ago ::
May 23, 2011 - 9:39PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2009
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I have a 1e thief and I have to say it's not good. At level 1, I had plenty of skills, but like a 10% chance of success at any of them. Now, we're around level 5-6, the wizard and cleric are regularly casting encounter-swinging spells, the fighter is even more of a badass, and I... am up to about a 30% chance of success. I suppose by level 15 or so I will actually be able to perform some skills with confidence, but so far I'm just a weaker version of a fighter. So yeah, theoretically you're the skill guy. But you're not actually any good at those skills for a long, long time.
And as far as backstab is concerned, it's just not possible with any regularity, and I don't see how it could be unless the DM is specifically setting encounters up around its particular requirements. It's extremely frustrating after you've played 4e and are used to all characters contributing equally.
I will admit though that it encourages RP, if only because its the only way to distinguish myself from our classless level 2 henchmen.
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2 years ago ::
May 23, 2011 - 9:42PM
#7
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OMG, I've been looking for that picture for years.
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2 years ago ::
May 23, 2011 - 10:49PM
#8
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I think Mr. Mearls has a good point about the thief losing some of his identity over the editions. Once some of his schtick became available to other classes in the form of skills, the class lost a great deal of its uniqueness. Especially outside of combat.
I wish more points like this would have been recognized as a problem in 3E and 4E.
What you guys have gained in 4E tactical play you have lost several times over in other areas.
And that makes me sad.
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2 years ago ::
May 23, 2011 - 10:57PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2003
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I think Mr. Mearls has a good point about the thief losing some of his identity over the editions. Once some of his schtick became available to other classes in the form of skills, the class lost a great deal of its uniqueness. Especially outside of combat.
I don't miss it a bit. I never especially liked the idea that to survive, I had to take along a clown that contributed virtually nothing in combat, was almost required to hose the party and try to steal treasure from his fellow adventurers, all because of skills that nobody else could have and were needed to survive, but weren't very likely to work.
Good riddance.
-Polaris
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2 years ago ::
May 23, 2011 - 10:59PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Mar 14, 2009
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The rules should be tools, well-wrought and easy to use, that help build those situations. In the hands of players, such tools are options, ideas, and possibilities that come to life in play—guideposts to help make D&D as funny, scary, and enjoyable as possible. The rules are a springboard to an exciting, engaging, and imaginative game; good ones are neither a straitjacket nor so empty that they suggest nothing.
For once, +1, Mr Mearls.
I would add that it is true of each aspect of the game - not only skills and abilities, but combat options, too.
I would say that the most interesting evolution of the game was to redefine what was, or not, covered by the notion of "class". With AD&D1, for instance, your class defined everything about your character : how he fought (and if he was able to fight at all), what he could do or not out of fight, even its morality, or the way he had to be roleplayed. The class defined the character.
In 4E, your class defines the kind of attacks or utilities you can use, the tactics you favor - and the skills you are better at. Role playing, be it in the sense of " playing a personality", or in the sense of "accomplishing out of rule actions" (like walking in a corridor with your 10'' pole in hand for the "gelatinous cube test") are not limited by class. As you said, the Fighter can be a gifted "thief". Or a magic user, thanks to the ritual caster feat.
The character concept comes first, the class selection is just a way to flesh him out and define the way he interacts with the rules.
If fear that, even if I agree with you on this, we don't have the same standards for defining what is too few or too much options, however.
Remember Tunnel Seventeen !
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