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2 years ago ::
May 20, 2011 - 12:57AM
#171
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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Another great post by GO. Here's my 2 cents about what he commented. It is all over the place for stats, arguably more so than any other class at this point. (...) Go ahead and make cleric strength weapon powers use wisdom instead (or strength or wisdom).
While I agree that this is an issue, I don't think this is the right solution. Streamlining the stats for cleric powers is obviously a good thing, but this involves changing too many powers - not just the strength ones from PHB, but also about 30 from Divine Power, and 15 from Dragon magazines. In fact, now that I look at the numbers, I'm surprised to find that the strength cleric build has more options for attack powers than the whole Runepriest class (74 vs 59, if you are curious). So I think the strength powers will work just fine as is.
Rather, I'd like to see Healer's Lore changed, either to use Charisma (or better, Cha+2) for all builds, or to offer a choice of Wis and Strength. In fact, since we are talking about giving the class a power boost, an interesting change would be to make the feature use Wis+Str. This would be a minor upgrade for the two main builds, and encourage players to try out a Balanced Cleric approach (equal Str and Wis, no Cha), much like the Balanced Paladin, which I really like.
Strength clerics would also love to see a few more paragon paths. The CC update did cover the basics pretty well, for which I'm grateful, but a couple more wouldn't hurt.
Proficiencies. Its obvious that WoTC wants the templar to be on the frontlines. (...) Let the templar get a +1 to hit with weapon powers while using a simple mace, like what the rogue gets with daggers.
Good one. It would be great to have some reason to use maces in the game, and this fits the cleric just fine.
Related to this is the whole weapon and implement issue. Right now a cleric either needs a weapon and holy symbol or a weapon that combines both. They also either need to take versatile expertise if the want to use a weapliment since you have not published a weapliment expertise type feat that scales at the same rate as the other newer expertise feats. Letting clerics have more ways to use weapons as implements would be nice. Simple maces as implements would be a good way to accomplish this. Letting clerics pick a martial weapon as implement depending on domain (not as a feat!) while getting that proficiency for cleric powers would be a nice fix as well. Earth domain get warhammers, sea get trident, war get greatsword, moon get bow, etc.
I'm not sure this is the right approach. Clerics don't really need weapliments because Holy Symbols aren't held in hand, so the only benefit this would provide would be to save one magic item slot. However, this would make most magic Holy Symbols redundant (as there aren't many other classes that care about those items). The main problem with mixing up weapon and implement powers is feat support, and a non-staff weapliment doesn't help you there - you'd still need to double up on expertise, focus, and the like.
What I'd like to see is the option to make purely weapon-based clerics. Using just implements while ignoring weapons is already viable, but strength clerics lack a strength-based weapon alternative to Turn Undead. Most other implement powers for the strength build have been purged in this update, though. Also, Versatile Expertise needs fixing (to scale at levels 11 and 21) , and this is an issue affecting several classes.
Channel divinity. People thought Turn Undead was too powerful in epic so you reduced it signifantly. Thats ok, but you reduced it a bit too much, so that other divine characters like invokers now have better anti undead channel divinity powers than clerics do. The good turn undead feats are no longer worth taking. Also divine fortune is not as good as the channel divinity powers other divine characters get. Its an afterthought power at best.
I don't care much for the turn undead feats, but divine fortune really needs a non-feat boost. Changing it to +2, or having it affect the whole party seem viable solutions.
Standard Action Utility Powers
This is spot-on.
Enabling. Clerics can't do this to anywhere near the extent other leaders can. And enabling has become even more powerful since the addition of the martial essentials classes who only have basic attacks. If you are going to take away party friendly AoE you need to add something to make up for the fact that clerics can't enable like most other leaders. The lack of party friendly AoE means clerics have far less stand out powers when compared to other leaders.
I think I'll disagree, here. While some additional offensive power would be nice, the cleric's niche is that of a defensive leader. Sure, conventional wisdom in character optimization says that offense>defense, but I think there are plenty of offensive options in the game already to risk one non-quite-optimal, but unique class. What I'm suggesting is not to give up and accept that clerics need to be mediocre, but to make defensive leading viable, even if it's not quite as devastating as a warlord nova. Improve healing (maybe even surgeless healing), provide ways to prevent/ignore negative conditions, and for Moradin's sake, turn Priest's Shield into a +2 bonus already!
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2 years ago ::
May 20, 2011 - 2:09AM
#172
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Date Joined:
Oct 28, 2010
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[All of what he said]
Agreed.
One minor point of disagreement: Rather than +1 to hit with simple maces, I'd be more in favor of a favored weapon system, based on your diety. For some dieties this would be proficiency with a military weapon (Correlon = Longswords, Moradin = Whatever the standard 1-handed military hammer is) while others would be +1 to attacks with a simple weapon (Ioun = Staves, Raven Queen = Sickles/Scythes)
Just to keep things interesting.
Bingo. Flavourful, interesting and useful, the golden mean of design.
There would also have to be, for each god (or indeed, one for all gods), a feat to use your favoured weapon as an implement, as Symbol of the Sonnlinor for Moradin, otherwise you'd wind up with everyone worshipping Moradin or Sehanine so that they could save on items.
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2 years ago ::
May 20, 2011 - 4:08AM
#173
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Date Joined:
Feb 12, 2004
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Yeah, that's excellant. So to summarize:
class feature - favored weapon: you gain proficiency with your deity's favored weapon. If the cleric class already grants you proficiency, you gain a +1 to hit with weapon attacks using that weapon instead.
new feat - divine implement: you may use your deity's favored weapon a holy symbol (req cleric, favored weapon)
each deity gets their own favored weapon - note that none of them should get a superior weapon, as that would be a double boost over the cleric's starting simple proficiency's rather then a single boost. Though I suppose exceptions could be made for superior weapons that aren't that amazing (katar, Trantyr, etc.)
Necromancy: Friendship is MagicSpoiler:
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2 years ago ::
May 20, 2011 - 5:04AM
#174
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Date Joined:
Apr 27, 2006
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Yeah, that's excellant. So to summarize:
class feature - favored weapon: you gain proficiency with your deity's favored weapon. If the cleric class already grants you proficiency, you gain a +1 to hit with weapon attacks using that weapon instead.
new feat - divine implement: you may use your deity's favored weapon a holy symbol (req cleric, favored weapon)
each deity gets their own favored weapon - note that none of them should get a superior weapon, as that would be a double boost over the cleric's starting simple proficiency's rather then a single boost. Though I suppose exceptions could be made for superior weapons that aren't that amazing (katar, Trantyr, etc.)
me likes.
also, someone above suggested converting all str cleric powers into runepriest powers, thereby ridding ourselves of one and bolstering the other in one fell swoop. i find this idea inventive and effective. sadly, i suspect that the task would prove too unwieldy to undertake, given all of the ramifications to be anticipated and addressed.
EDIT: imo, that new, suggested feat should actually be a freebie.
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2 years ago ::
May 20, 2011 - 5:26AM
#175
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- Forum Guide
- Hero Craftsman Gold Medalist
- Master Dungeon Master
Date Joined:
Jun 23, 2005
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I remember reading that quote from somebody, but I can't seem to find it now. However "for the sake of correctness", it wasn't me.
Oops! Sorry!
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2 years ago ::
May 20, 2011 - 6:20AM
#176
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
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I agree with the suggested bonuses for cleric on the whole.
adjusting Healer's Lore to Cha I think makes sense (many healing powers already key off cha), Cha+2 or Str+Cha could be a bit much - possibly a feat like the Paladin feat to add str mod to the amount healed.
Also, as said above, if Healing Word is to lose the Divine Keyword adding it back in using the Healer's Lore class feature would be a tight fix and allow for a strong modualization of the Healing Word Power.
I like the concept of Favored Weapon, a nice attribute of 3.5 that was dropped for 4e. Honestly i'd be unlikely to use it as I favor the implement cleric, but i'd walk around with the weapon for those pesky melee attacks.
I'm also a fan of runepriest, but i think changing the Str-Cleric powers to RP would be ... messy. The presented scope of the leader means it would be a really big difference between the native RP powers and the tacked on former-cleric powers. Also, people would still ignore Priest Shield in favor of the original RP powers.
I understand the podcast has been completed, but hopefully the thread will still be watched and the ideas will be presented to the R&D team.
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2 years ago ::
May 20, 2011 - 7:32AM
#177
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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@psikus. This is first time in all 4E that I am satisfied with the paragon path choices available to strength clerics. They now have multiple good choices to pick from and only have to step out of class if the want to, not if they have to. They did a good job with that part of the update and in updating some of the other strength powers.
Strength powers on the whole are not where they should be, but they are a lot closer than they were. One good dragon article/giant errata is all it would take. Take priests shield. Make the bonus be an effect and have it work as a basic attack on a charge would go a long way to making see actual use. Or else make the bonus apply to all defenses of the cleric and adjacent allies.
For the other powers, I do not think they have to go back to just how they were, but they should add in an enemy debuff or leadery feature to the ones like flame strike. Same thing for powers like Godstrike. Make it do something besides damage like as an effect the targets defenses drop by 2 for the rest of the encounter. Or all allies within 5 squares get a +1 power bonus to hit and do 5 radiant damage for the rest of the encounter. Have it do something leadery.
Other people had mentioned the healer's lore being charisma based in my earlier thread on how to fix the battle cleric. I agree it is a good fix.
The main problem with weapliments is that so many of the prereqs are deity, not domain, restricted and the actual items like unforgettable cudgel or weapon of evil undone are all"uncommons" if you use those rules. I just want a way for clerics, paladins, and avengers to be able to use weapliments without as much hassle.
The main thing I want to make clear that the vast majority of these changes need to be done as class features and errata and not as feats. More feats are always nice, but more feats that are necessary to make the class work at par are not good game design. At this points clerics need to spend feats if they want a decent weapon, if they want frontline AC, if they want the improved defences, versatile expertise etc. If you do make some of them as feats make sure they are really big feats so players don't feel like they are paying a feat tax. The new expertise and superior will type feats are the minimum that you should be considering.
And please make future divine feats, items, and paragon paths domain based instead of deity based so they can actually be "core" and function in all campaign settings.
my handbooks & builds
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2 years ago ::
May 20, 2011 - 7:32AM
#178
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Date Joined:
Jun 21, 2006
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adjusting Healer's Lore to Cha I think makes sense (many healing powers already key off cha), Cha+2 or Str+Cha could be a bit much - possibly a feat like the Paladin feat to add str mod to the amount healed.
Keep in mind that Wis is a primary ability for most clerics, and Cha is a secondary... so you are weakening the feature by a couple of points by going Wis -> Cha. Cha +2 should be more or less equivalent to what laser clerics are getting now.
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2 years ago ::
May 20, 2011 - 8:45AM
#179
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Date Joined:
Jun 30, 2008
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Usually it has been proposed that clerics can pick charisma or wisdom at creation for healers lore, not that they have to use charisma. That makes the option of str/cha more viable, while not messing with those who want to stick with str/wis or wis/cha.
my handbooks & builds
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2 years ago ::
May 20, 2011 - 8:52AM
#180
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2007
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Right now, it's probably better for Strength clerics to ignore Healer's Lore entirely and pick up the feat which lets them get a Warpriest domain. At least, IMO.
-O
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