Community

 
Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A outrage! rules on suffocating or drowning a...
Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 1 of 3  •  1 2 3 Next
Switch to Forum Live View outrage! rules on suffocating or drowning a monster?
2 years ago  ::  May 05, 2011 - 10:35PM #1
Bumberbog
Date Joined: Feb 25, 2010
Posts: 141
In DMG1, there are rules for suffocating a PC.  Do the same rules apply to a monster?  If so, those are some awfully generous rules!

The situation:  a monster was trussed up with rope, immobilized and restrained.  Further, cloth was stuffed in his mouth so he was gagged as well.  What's more, said monster was UNCONSCIOUS --under the effect of a sleep spell.

A player said "I hold his nose" in an attempt to suffocate him to death.

DM ruled that the monster was entitled to the same "consitutional rights" as a PC.  In other words, he has three minutes, then he must fail a save, etc.

But 3 minutes is like 30 rounds!  That's ridiculous!

Additionally, those rules for PCs assume the characters are able to draw in a deep breath first, which isn't the case if you're unconscious.

Does anybody have a house rule on this, or some guidance? 
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 05, 2011 - 10:49PM #2
Mikron
Date Joined: Aug 11, 2006
Posts: 300
I would rule for the PC to take a standard action every turn to sustain the suffocation.

The monster would have to role a saving throw to wake up (from the sleep spell) as well as a save against suffocating. If it fails the suffocation saving throw, I'd have it take damage equal to 1/4 (ie the healing surge value).
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 05, 2011 - 11:34PM #3
Pluisjen
Date Joined: May 13, 2009
Posts: 14,168
The rules also say that the monster must make an extra save if it takes damage, if I'm not mistaken. Also, suffocation is not exactly an easy way to kill someone. It's easier to stab them in the face.

Last, choke-holds are far more effective then holding the nose because they disrupt the flow of blood to the brain instead of waiting for the opponent to run out of breath. That's why you sometimes see martial artists pin someone and them going out in seconds.

So I'm kinda with the DM. People have a lot of oxygen in their blood and can go on quite a while without breathing (although much shorter during combat; I believe it's only one and a half minute before saves)
Epic Dungeon Master



Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!


Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2011 - 3:04AM #4
Solik
Date Joined: Aug 13, 2005
Posts: 3,075
The 3-minute rule is explicitly out-of-combat / out-of-(otherwise)-danger.  If you're capable of taking damage, things get much worse, very quickly.

If nothing else, a simple punch to the gut (improvised basic attack, still likely to hit a helpless foe) will force Endurance checks.  Most monsters have neither Endurance training nor Healing Surges, so they will die much, much faster using this method.

A reasonable DM would rule that a player actively attempting to drown an unconscious monster would make it subject to the same rules as if it was taking actual damage, I think.  By RAW, the best method to attempt to drown it is just to hit it.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2011 - 4:43AM #5
Madfox11
  • LFR Global Admin
Date Joined: Dec 2, 2005
Posts: 4,440
Personally I am more curious on why the characters went for such an alternative tactic, or why it really mattered all that much whether it took 3.5 minutes or 6 seconds. Mind you, as a DM I would likely not stick to the RAW in a situation like this and either give a quick auto-kill if outside of combat or treat it as a coupe-de-grace each round with the characters best at-will melee attack power refluffed as stranglation. Of course, I would also roll my eyes at the players for using such an odd method of dispossing of an opponent
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2011 - 5:19AM #6
Bumberbog
Date Joined: Feb 25, 2010
Posts: 141
Actually, not such a corny ending given the circumstances.

The trussee, a high-level wizard, had been put to sleep, tied up, and gagged.

But the battle with his minions had only just begun and was raging all around.

One character figured that this would be the fastest way of reducing him to 0 hp as he had a ton of hp, and if you had to damage him with round by round a coup de grace, it could still take a long time, during which he might get free.

Hence it was theorized that the fastest way of reducing him to 0 hp was suffocation.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2011 - 5:24AM #7
Pluisjen
Date Joined: May 13, 2009
Posts: 14,168
Guess it turned out their theorizing was wrong, then.
Epic Dungeon Master



Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen!

Your Kingdom awaits!


Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2011 - 5:35AM #8
Arithezoo
Date Joined: Aug 31, 2008
Posts: 3,271
A faster way might have been taking advantage of the Coup de Grace rules.  The wizard would count as helpless, so all attacks against him would be critical hits.  No matter how many hit points he has, that will take care of him pretty fast.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2011 - 6:10AM #9
Salla
Date Joined: Apr 3, 2003
Posts: 23,524

May 6, 2011 -- 5:19AM, Bumberbog wrote:



Hence it was theorized that the fastest way of reducing him to 0 hp was suffocation.




Myth busted.

Another day, another three or four entries to my Ignore List.
Quick Reply
Cancel
2 years ago  ::  May 06, 2011 - 6:17AM #10
Astromath
Date Joined: Sep 20, 2007
Posts: 6,190
Here's what's in the compendium:


Starvation, Thirst and Suffocation


When deprived of food, water, or air, the rule of three applies. An adventurer can handle three weeks without food, three days without water, and three minutes without air outside of strenuous situations.

After that, such deprivation is a significant test of a PCs’ stamina. At the end of the time period (three weeks, three days, or three minutes), the character must succeed on a DC 20 Endurance check.

Success buys the character another day (if hungry or thirsty), or round (if unable to breathe). Then the check is repeated at DC 25, then at DC 30, and so on. When a character fails the check, he loses one healing surge and must continue to make checks. A character without healing surges who fails a check takes damage equal to his level.

In strenuous situations, such as combat, going without air is much harder. A character holding his breath during underwater combat, for example, must make a DC 20 Endurance check at the end of his turn in a round where he takes damage.

As with environmental dangers, a character cannot regain healing surges lost to starvation, thirst, or suffocation until he eats a meal, drinks, or gains access to air again, respectively.

A character with 0 or fewer hit points who continues to suffer from one of these effects keeps taking damage as described above until he dies or is rescued.


Published in Dungeon Master's Guide, page(s) 159.




I've bolded the relevant paragraph for the situation.  This is for creatures voluntarily holding their breath.  Here's what I would rule:  forcing a creature to suffocate would bring in the coup de gras rules and the damage done would be the same as an unarmed attack with no strength bonus (i.e 4 hit points of damage).  At that point the Endurance checks would start.  I would also rule that the creature would get a saving throw vs the sleep condition immediately.

If the creature is high enough level that their Endurance skill is +19 or better, it is really difficult suffocate because they cannot fail the check (at least in the first round), but they still would take damage (from the coup de gras attack).  The following rounds the DC goes up by 5, etc.  Until the creature fails the Endurance check, the creature won't take suffocation damage.  So the creature is taking maximum damage from an unarmed attack (4 hp) every round and when the creature fails the Endurance check, it takes damage equal to its level.

There are better ways to kill a helpless creature than by suffocation.

You have the free will to agree or disagree.
You have the ability to act freely on the above choice regardless of the consequences.
Keep on the Shadowfell PbP Group 1 Show
IC:  http://community.wizards.com/play-by-post_haven/go/thread/view/75801/27483461/4e_IC_Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_with_Essentials
OOC:  http://community.wizards.com/play-by-post_haven/go/thread/view/75801/27483501/4e_OOC_Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_with_Essentials
Encounter:  http://community.wizards.com/play-by-post_haven/go/thread/view/75801/27483565/4e_Encounter_Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_with_Essentials

Keep on the Shadowfell PbP Group 2 Show
IC:  http://community.wizards.com/play-by-post_haven/go/thread/view/75801/27947981/4e_IC_Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_with_Essentials_Group_2
OOC:  http://community.wizards.com/play-by-post_haven/go/thread/view/75801/27947997/4e_OOC_Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_with_Essentials_Group_2
Encounter:  http://community.wizards.com/play-by-post_haven/go/thread/view/75801/27948001/4e_Encounter_Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_with_Essentials_Group_2
Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 3  •  1 2 3 Next
Jump Menu:
 
Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Rules Q&A outrage! rules on suffocating or drowning a...
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing