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You do not pass though the gates of death without my persission.

Make your entire party "unkillable" @ level 11 (and somewhat difficult to kill from level 1).

the trick Show

Item indepenant, but a bonus/reroll to death saves would is suggested.  (you have +7 without items).

Note that you arn't proficenct in plate, but your intentionally taking a penalty to attacks (or at least 1 of them), and the AC is nice.

There are a few open feats for expertise if don't like "lazy" builds, or want to cutomize it a bit.

The theme, assured healing, and your base minors, will likely be enough healing for most parties, (unless they are all defenseless strikers).  So there's plenty of room for custimizing powers as well.

full build Show

heroic breakdown Show

paragon breakdown Show

Epic breakdown Show

heals Show

a few things to encurage your allies to... Show

It's not so much that she's evil (though not entirely good), but she started out as an undertaker and taxadermist, who got into necromancy to help preserve the bodies, or to let someone say a final few words, or to have a favorit pet wag it's tail.  This was well recived, and she was happy to help consol people (not upset about the coin she made either).  She actually had a few nobles set up arrangements for how they wanted to be when they died.  She thought them pompus, but the coin was good, so why not?  She spent more time researching and developing her techniques.

Then, one night she awoke to a sudden pain across her throat.  Waking up she saw a man holding a razor standing above her.  The razor and her neck where covered by something wet and sticky.  She could see the emblem of the raven queen tatoo'd on his face and printed on his cloak.  As the blood started to soak her shirt, the man smiled, and silently slipped out the window.  As panic slowly enveloped her, she scrambled to find a way to survive, but darkness encroached too quickly.

Somewhere in the darkness a door opened, and the raven queen stood behind it, with a cold smile on her face.  "You are dead" the queen said coldly "You are mine".
"No". She heared herself say with surprising calm, "I will never be yours", and she slammed the door shut, pressing herself against it to keep it closed.
"You cannot wait forever" the queen said with some annoyance.
"Neither can you" she replied, as she started to worked her magic to animated her body.
"I am the queen of the dead" she laughed "of course i can".
"Then i will remove you from the throne" she fearfully retorted, struggling to keep the small pieces of her body alive, and quickly replacing those that failed.
"You don't have a fraction of the power to do so" the queen said in anger.
"Then i will find someone who can" she replied.  Leaving the door and the darkness behind before the queen could reply.

She awoke in her bed, he body cold, and the blood dried.  It was near sunset, but day's or even weeks could of passed.  Eventually she knew she would be discovered by the raven queens followers again.  So she gathered what she could, put someone else corpse in her bed, set fire to her place, and ran.

Her name, is Vecna. 

Couldn't you take Templar's Domain feat to swap your healer's lore for the sun domain feature granting yourself and allies and additional +2 to death saves?

May 4, 2011 -- 12:58PM, Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:

Couldn't you take Templar's Domain feat to swap your healer's lore for the sun domain feature granting yourself and allies and additional +2 to death saves?

I am, @ level 6.

Which gives the party 5 (harbringer of rebirth), 2 (sun domain), 2 (voice to wake the dead) = +9

And she has 5 (diciple of death), 2 (sun domain), = +7  she needs to pick up the last 2 from verve armor, or perhiphat of recovery.

This is a nasty trick to pull on a DM. I love it.

May 4, 2011 -- 2:46PM, Theziner wrote:

This is a nasty trick to pull on a DM. I love it.

It's even nastier to pull on your allies.

Ally "Ok, i'm bloodied, so can you heal me?"
You "No, i'll wait"
Ally "I've got 3 hp left, with 10 ongoing damage, NOW will you heal me?"
You "No, i'll wait"
Ally ", now i'm at -15 and unconcious, your a really crappy team player"
You "Your still concious "
Ally "What?"
You "Are you within 5 squares of me?"
Ally "Yes"
You "Then your still concious"
Ally "....."
GM "Roll your Death save"
Ally "2, so i fail"
You "+9"
Ally "What?
You "You get +9 to death saves"
Ally "...."
You ""
Ally "...."
You "I rolled a 15, so 20 vs reflex"
Ally "You only have a +5 to hit?!?!?"
You "Of course"
DM "Not even close"
You "You gain 6HP"
Ally "..."
You ""
Ally "... i hate you..." 

May 4, 2011 -- 3:18PM, mellored wrote:

Ally "Ok, i'm bloodied, so can you heal me?"
You "No, i'll wait"
Ally "I've got 3 hp left, with 10 ongoing damage, NOW will you heal me?"
You "No, i'll wait"

I love it. =)

May 4, 2011 -- 3:18PM, mellored wrote:

May 4, 2011 -- 2:46PM, Theziner wrote:

This is a nasty trick to pull on a DM. I love it.

It's even nastier to pull on your allies.

Ally "Ok, i'm bloodied, so can you heal me?"
You "No, i'll wait"
Ally "I've got 3 hp left, with 10 ongoing damage, NOW will you heal me?"
You "No, i'll wait"
Ally ", now i'm at -15 and unconcious, your a really crappy team player"
You "Your still concious "
Ally "What?"
You "Are you within 5 squares of me?"
Ally "Yes"
You "Then your still concious"
Ally "....."
GM "Roll your Death save"
Ally "2, so i fail"
You "+9"
Ally "What?
You "You get +9 to death saves"
Ally "...."
You ""
Ally "...."
You "I rolled a 15, so 20 vs reflex"
Ally "You only have a +5 to hit?!?!?"
You "Of course"
DM "Not even close"
You "You gain 6HP"
Ally "..."
You ""
Ally "... i hate you..." 

this is the funniest DnD convo I've ever heard :D

What is the purpose of Unnatural Vitality? If you fall unconcious after the first death saving throw anyway...

May 4, 2011 -- 9:52PM, zelink551 wrote:

What is the purpose of Unnatural Vitality? If you fall unconcious after the first death saving throw anyway...

First FAILED saving throw. Get your bonus to +9 or higher and you don't go unconcious till you die.

May 4, 2011 -- 9:42PM, Kryx wrote:

May 4, 2011 -- 3:18PM, mellored wrote:

May 4, 2011 -- 2:46PM, Theziner wrote:

This is a nasty trick to pull on a DM. I love it.

It's even nastier to pull on your allies.

Ally "Ok, i'm bloodied, so can you heal me?"
You "No, i'll wait"
Ally "I've got 3 hp left, with 10 ongoing damage, NOW will you heal me?"
You "No, i'll wait"
Ally ", now i'm at -15 and unconcious, your a really crappy team player"
You "Your still concious "
Ally "What?"
You "Are you within 5 squares of me?"
Ally "Yes"
You "Then your still concious"
Ally "....."
GM "Roll your Death save"
Ally "2, so i fail"
You "+9"
Ally "What?
You "You get +9 to death saves"
Ally "...."
You ""
Ally "...."
You "I rolled a 15, so 20 vs reflex"
Ally "You only have a +5 to hit?!?!?"
You "Of course"
DM "Not even close"
You "You gain 6HP"
Ally "..."
You ""
Ally "... i hate you..." 

this is the funniest DnD convo I've ever heard :D

I concur.  Brilliant.  

This should get added to the list of class builds.

Aura 5: "Allies are Epic Revenants" is brilliant :D

I see a lack of Superior Will, which is probably gold for Revenants now; as well as anything that can boost your save vs Daze.

May 5, 2011 -- 4:31AM, RaizielDragon wrote:

I see a lack of Superior Will, which is probably gold for Revenants now; as well as anything that can boost your save vs Daze.

Topaz Crusader is gold.  Since it's pure immunity to daze.  Thus you won't even loose an OA.

Superior will is sky blue.  Which i did have earlier (replaced diciple of death), but this doesn't show retraining.

Ah.  Well then, I guess I should have looked more closely at everything in the build.  I retract my previous statement.  Carry on then.

this is where you go 4thcore on them and just say 'you are disintegrated, no save'. happened in our game last monday

Or the DM/Team Monster realizes what's going on, and beats you into your negative bloodied.

That's actually a legit, non-rude tactic.  If a guy is at -15 hp yet still conscious, why wouldn't the monster keep attacking?

Yeah.  I'm DMing right now, and I don't like to play Team Monster as stupid.  My players still do very well, but I try to make it challenging for them by monsters actually using tactics.  I refer to the tactics section of encounters often and try and use it to build a battle plan for that encounter.  I also group all my monsters turns together rather than roll them all individually.  This way, they can use some tactics that work together, like one monster triggering the Defenders immediate action, so that the next one can ignore it.

Some people might consider it metagaming, but as long as you only have team monster react to stuff they've experienced/seen, it seems fair to me (an example of this is the Barbarian has Battle Awareness, and it triggers often because Team Monster has no reason to expect the Barbarian to be dipping into defender.  The Fighter and Barbarian like to play it close together and use each other to trigger each other's attacks.  The Warlord gets in on the action with Brash Strike Assault and Death from Two Sides)

I wouldn't have to worry about a build like this, because I'm the only player in my group who seems to have any interest in Revenants and their durability.  Everyone else tends to play more aggresive builds.

EDIT: Wrong attack for Warlord

Is there still a bug/errata from letting you grab dilettante as a revenant? Direct the Strike would be great on this build if there wasn't...

Edit: I'm an idiot. Ire Strike... damn I'm on such a cold streak 

Holy Schmoly, this his absolutely hilarious.  I'm running a revenant paladin through the tomb of horrors at the moment, but I am so switching over to this mess when / if I can convince our current leader to play a defender instead.


Belts of Sonnlinor Righteousness for everyone!  Battle Standard of Healing, I choose you!

While the build isn't item dependent (and that's awesome), having BoSR for as many party members as possible, and carrying around a BSoH to plant with your first action of every encounter, both have such obvious synergy with the concept that they deserve special mention.

As per Unnatural Mantle wouldn't your ally fall unconcious after making their first death save, not a failed save?

May 5, 2011 -- 9:14AM, Sefrit wrote:

As per Unnatural Mantle wouldn't your ally fall unconcious after making their first death save, not a failed save?

Yes, but with +9 to their saves, if they roll an 11 or better they can spend a surge themselves and avoid going unconcious entirely.

May 5, 2011 -- 9:18AM, Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 9:14AM, Sefrit wrote:

As per Unnatural Mantle wouldn't your ally fall unconcious after making their first death save, not a failed save?

Yes, but with +9 to their saves, if they roll an 11 or better they can spend a surge themselves and avoid going unconcious entirely.

So it doesn't make the party immune from falling unconcious. It just makes it less likely they will by giving them a 45% chance to spend a healing surge? That seems less powerful then just outright healing the party when they are low on hps.

May 5, 2011 -- 9:36AM, Sefrit wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 9:18AM, Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 9:14AM, Sefrit wrote:

As per Unnatural Mantle wouldn't your ally fall unconcious after making their first death save, not a failed save?

Yes, but with +9 to their saves, if they roll an 11 or better they can spend a surge themselves and avoid going unconcious entirely.

So it doesn't make the party immune from falling unconcious. It just makes it less likely they will by giving them a 45% chance to spend a healing surge? That seems less powerful then just outright healing the party when they are low on hps.

Well that's just a last resort. Afterall, he is a hybrid of 2 leaders with plenty of healing to go around. Plus, by waiting to heal allies until they are below 0, they effectively get more healing than they would by being healed while above 0 since healing starts at 0 regardless of how negative they are.

May 5, 2011 -- 9:14AM, Sefrit wrote:

As per Unnatural Mantle wouldn't your ally fall unconcious after making their first death save, not a failed save?

Occasionally someone will fall unconcious.  But they need to drop below 0, have a turn before you, and "fail" their death saving throw.  And then you get them back up on your turn, so at worst they loose some immidiate/oppertunity actions.  But you bring up a good point...

Is there any way to get a prone ally to stand up?

So it doesn't make the party immune from falling unconcious. It just makes it less likely they will by giving them a 45% chance to spend a healing surge? That seems less powerful then just outright healing the party when they are low on hps.

Depends on how much your allies use it.  They can load up on "while bloodied" and "drop below 0" stuff like a minotaur (extra attack), battlecrazed weaopn (extra damage), stormhawk vengence (auto-damage), and avenging spirit (extra action points).

Also, Your job is too keep them alive, not healthy.   And you do that better then any other build out there.  How else would a cleric of vecna do it?

May 5, 2011 -- 10:52AM, mellored wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 9:14AM, Sefrit wrote:

As per Unnatural Mantle wouldn't your ally fall unconcious after making their first death save, not a failed save?

Occasionally someone will fall unconcious.  But they need to drop below 0, have a turn before you, and "fail" their death saving throw.  And then you get them back up on your turn, so at worst they loose some immidiate/oppertunity actions.  But you bring up a good point...

Is there any way to get a prone ally to stand up?

So it doesn't make the party immune from falling unconcious. It just makes it less likely they will by giving them a 45% chance to spend a healing surge? That seems less powerful then just outright healing the party when they are low on hps.

Depends on how much your allies use it.  They can load up on "while bloodied" and "drop below 0" stuff like a minotaur (extra attack), battlecrazed weaopn (extra damage), stormhawk vengence (auto-damage), and avenging spirit (extra action points).

Also, Your job is too keep them alive, not healthy.   And you do that better then any other build out there.  How else would a cleric of vecna do it?

If the rest of the party are Deva's with Upright Revival they'll hardly skip a beat. Rising Hopes will let a dying ally stand and shift when you use ardent surge on them, but requires mantle of clarity and only helps 1/encounter.

May 5, 2011 -- 11:00AM, Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 10:52AM, mellored wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 9:14AM, Sefrit wrote:

As per Unnatural Mantle wouldn't your ally fall unconcious after making their first death save, not a failed save?

Occasionally someone will fall unconcious.  But they need to drop below 0, have a turn before you, and "fail" their death saving throw.  And then you get them back up on your turn, so at worst they loose some immidiate/oppertunity actions.  But you bring up a good point...

Is there any way to get a prone ally to stand up?

So it doesn't make the party immune from falling unconcious. It just makes it less likely they will by giving them a 45% chance to spend a healing surge? That seems less powerful then just outright healing the party when they are low on hps.

Depends on how much your allies use it.  They can load up on "while bloodied" and "drop below 0" stuff like a minotaur (extra attack), battlecrazed weaopn (extra damage), stormhawk vengence (auto-damage), and avenging spirit (extra action points).

Also, Your job is too keep them alive, not healthy.   And you do that better then any other build out there.  How else would a cleric of vecna do it?

If the rest of the party are Deva's with Upright Revival they'll hardly skip a beat. Rising Hopes will let a dying ally stand and shift when you use ardent surge on them, but requires mantle of clarity and only helps 1/encounter.

Right, deva's.  Add Potent Revival to that list (+2 to hit for the encounter, after you drop below 0).

Hmm... cleric of vecna in a party with fallen angles...

You could take powers that grant allies regen while bloodied. I'd guess an ally that is under 0 is still considered bloodied but since they are still concious I think they get the benefit of regen.

@Sefrit: Regen specifically does not work while at 0- HP (unfortunately so for my Revenant Rogue >.>)

May 5, 2011 -- 10:52AM, mellored wrote:

Is there any way to get a prone ally to stand up?

Knight's Move comes to mind, but then you'd basically have to just have all the classes.

edit: Why doesn't regen work below 0? Even if you're conscious?

Longtooth shifters combo really well with this guy.  If you've got longtooth shifting active and fall below zero, you'll still be concious, so the regen will still be active to keep you concious whichever way the death save turns out!  

Since you're really likely to be able to spend surges when you make death saves, you don't really need to heal all the way to full during short rests.  (Picture a group of adventurers perpetually beaten up, disheveled, with cuts and gashes oozing and just walking around all day that way.)  If your party gets some immediate interrupts that halve or prevent the damage from a hit, then you won't fear crits on big-damage monster powers kocking you straight to negative bloodied.

May 5, 2011 -- 12:18PM, Cohen95 wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 10:52AM, mellored wrote:

Is there any way to get a prone ally to stand up?

Knight's Move comes to mind, but then you'd basically have to just have all the classes.

edit: Why doesn't regen work below 0? Even if you're conscious?

May 5, 2011 -- 12:22PM, chitzk0i wrote:

Longtooth shifters combo really well with this guy.  If you've got longtooth shifting active and fall below zero, you'll still be concious, so the regen will still be active to keep you concious whichever way the death save turns out!  

Since you're really likely to be able to spend surges when you make death saves, you don't really need to heal all the way to full during short rests.  (Picture a group of adventurers perpetually beaten up, disheveled, with cuts and gashes oozing and just walking around all day that way.)  If your party gets some immediate interrupts that halve or prevent the damage from a hit, then you won't fear crits on big-damage monster powers kocking you straight to negative bloodied.

Heal Each Turn: If you have regeneration and at least 1 hit point, you  regain a specified number of hit points at the start of your turn. If  your current hit point total is 0 or lower, you do not regain hit points  through regeneration.

Limited by Maximum Hit Points: Like most  forms of healing, regeneration can’t cause your current hit points to  exceed your maximum hit points.

Not Cumulative: If you gain regeneration from more than one source, only the largest amount of regeneration applies.

May 5, 2011 -- 10:52AM, mellored wrote:

Is there any way to get a prone ally to stand up?

Isn't there a weapon, part of an item set in the AV2, that allows prone allies to stand up when you hit? Perhaps not the best synergy with this build, but then again I'm not 100% on the wording so mayhaps there is a loophole.

May 5, 2011 -- 12:40PM, charlie1331 wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 10:52AM, mellored wrote:

Is there any way to get a prone ally to stand up?

Isn't there a weapon, part of an item set in the AV2, that allows prone allies to stand up when you hit? Perhaps not the best synergy with this build, but then again I'm not 100% on the wording so mayhaps there is a loophole.

Rousing Hammer: When you hit an enemy with this weapon, each ally you can see can stand up as a free action.

May 5, 2011 -- 12:52PM, Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 12:40PM, charlie1331 wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 10:52AM, mellored wrote:

Is there any way to get a prone ally to stand up?

Isn't there a weapon, part of an item set in the AV2, that allows prone allies to stand up when you hit? Perhaps not the best synergy with this build, but then again I'm not 100% on the wording so mayhaps there is a loophole.

Rousing Hammer: When you hit an enemy with this weapon, each ally you can see can stand up as a free action.

Sadly hitting for this build is intentionally difficult...

May 5, 2011 -- 1:00PM, zelink551 wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 12:52PM, Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 12:40PM, charlie1331 wrote:

May 5, 2011 -- 10:52AM, mellored wrote:

Is there any way to get a prone ally to stand up?

Isn't there a weapon, part of an item set in the AV2, that allows prone allies to stand up when you hit? Perhaps not the best synergy with this build, but then again I'm not 100% on the wording so mayhaps there is a loophole.

Rousing Hammer: When you hit an enemy with this weapon, each ally you can see can stand up as a free action.

Sadly hitting for this build is intentionally difficult...

Only with cleric powers. Ardent powers are at normal accuracy.

May 4, 2011 -- 1:01PM, mellored wrote:

May 4, 2011 -- 12:58PM, Jay_Ibero_911 wrote:

Couldn't you take Templar's Domain feat to swap your healer's lore for the sun domain feature granting yourself and allies and additional +2 to death saves?

I am, @ level 6.

Which gives the party 5 (harbringer of rebirth), 2 (sun domain), 2 (voice to wake the dead) = +9

And she has 5 (diciple of death), 2 (sun domain), = +7  she needs to pick up the last 2 from verve armor, or perhiphat of recovery.

I'm probably missing this from somewhere but where is Templar's Domain located? I can't find it.

@ Jay-true, but the -2 from the armor still hurts a bit.

Great Build, love the conversation . If only there was a way to add MC or hybrid shaman, you could get free healing all encounter every encounter with just one utility power: "call forth the spirit world". However, as far as i can see, all three current classes and the PP are essential for the build to work...

May 5, 2011 -- 3:03PM, zelink551 wrote:

@ Jay-true, but the -2 from the armor still hurts a bit.

As does the lack of an expertise feat (there's room, but it bumps everything 2 levels).

Still, there's no real reason this has to be a lazy build.  Ire Strike -> disheartening strike, plate -> chain (get perhiphat), astral seal -> recovery strike (don't attack with the weapon).

Also there are actually 2 ardent powers (Impatient Strike, Field of Alacity) that let allies stand.  Not good for lazy clerics though.

May 5, 2011 -- 3:51PM, SongNSilence wrote:

Great Build, love the conversation . If only there was a way to add MC or hybrid shaman, you could get free healing all encounter every encounter with just one utility power: "call forth the spirit world". However, as far as i can see, all three current classes and the PP are essential for the build to work...

Hmm...

That might actually be better.  Healing at the start of there turn means they don't even need to make death saving throws...  and if they did, they'd still be at +7...

You'd really need to find a way to re-use it, or prevent your spirit from dying.  It's not reliable enough by itself to base an entire build on.

Though.... revenant gnome + faded spirit + unnatural mantle + perma-stealth = awsome...  But that's gunna be a whole new build...

Still, given that unnatural mantle doesn't keep allies concious after their first death save even if they pass, I think looking for permanent start-of-turn healing effects is the way to go, and that shaman one is the best I've seen.

I love crazy builds like this, great work

Other things that might be able to contribute to this very creative build:

The ED Legendary General has a feature "Unyielding Company (30th level):  While you have at least 1 hit  point, allies within 20 squares of you  do not fall unconscious at 0 hit  points or fewer and cannot die because  of negative hit points. Allies at  0 hit points or fewer still make  death saving throws as normal, and  they can die as a result of failed  death saving throws."

The item Life Charm means you "Automatically succeed on death saving throws."

May 17, 2011 -- 7:42AM, monkeygentleman wrote:

Other things that might be able to contribute to this very creative build:

The ED Legendary General has a feature "Unyielding Company (30th level):  While you have at least 1 hit  point, allies within 20 squares of you  do not fall unconscious at 0 hit  points or fewer and cannot die because  of negative hit points. Allies at  0 hit points or fewer still make  death saving throws as normal, and  they can die as a result of failed  death saving throws."

The item Life Charm means you "Automatically succeed on death saving throws."

This already gives you the same thing.  And while it's shorter range (5 for full protection, 10 for mostly protected), it's also alot alot earlier then 30 (the major selling point), doesn't require they wear anything, and is a bit safer since it still works while you are below 0.

Good call on all points, although why did you call Unyielding Company "mostly protected" instead of "full protection"? And while it does require you to stay alive, it does mean even if you don't get to your dying ally it wouldn't matter since they wouldn't be destroyed at negative bloodied.

Also, I'm having trouble finding "Templar's Domain" in the compendium. What does it do?

May 17, 2011 -- 8:13AM, monkeygentleman wrote:

Good call on all points, although why did you call Unyielding Company "mostly protected" instead of "full protection"? And while it does require you to stay alive, it does mean even if you don't get to your dying ally it wouldn't matter since they wouldn't be destroyed at negative bloodied.

IMO, Negitive bloodied is less likely (paticularly since this build has alot of healing) then you falling below 0.  Paticularly if they all grab belt of sonlinor's rightiousness.  Though they are both close enough to probably call even.  

Though neither is FULL protection (i'd be a boring game that way).

Also, I'm having trouble finding "Templar's Domain" in the compendium. What does it do?

Swaps healer's lore for a domain feature.

In this case, you loose your wis mod (1) on all your surge based healing (we mostly do surgless) for Sun Domain (+2 to death saves for everyone).

Assuming Themes become a standard part of the game soon, Hospitaler seems like an invaluable theme to add to this. Twice per encounter give an ally a surgeless heal when they would be reduced to 0 or less. Unnatural mantle keeps them even from falling down.

Yup.

Makes a pretty nice combo even without the full build too.

Can we work "Marathon" into the title somewhere since you excell at winning the Marathon (war of attrition) and also I expect the player will be using the Run move action to run around in circles and give herself another -5 to attack roles to really ensure missing.

I built something like this and at level 14 it gives your allies +17 or more on thier death saves (so long as you are at 0 or fewer and hit) - which means constantly spending healing surges without use of resources, but Id love to be able to do that without using up my MC/Hybrid features so I could lock in an infinite action point combo for epic.  Any ideas on ways to grant allies death save bonuses as a primary class ardent with Ranger (horizon walker) & Warlord (warmaster) as hybrid and mc choices? 

Sep 16, 2011 -- 8:07AM, JohnnyBlaise wrote:

I built something like this and at level 14 it gives your allies +17 or more on thier death saves (so long as you are at 0 or fewer and hit) - which means constantly spending healing surges without use of resources, but Id love to be able to do that without using up my MC/Hybrid features so I could lock in an infinite action point combo for epic.  Any ideas on ways to grant allies death save bonuses as a primary class ardent with Ranger (horizon walker) & Warlord (warmaster) as hybrid and mc choices? 

I'm curious how you achived +17.  I've struggled to squeeze out just +9.

But as far as hybrids go.  Ardent's don't need any stats, so it's easy enough to go Str/Wis Ardent|warlord/ranger  or Dex/Wis ardent|ranger/warlord.

Actually, i figured out how to get both unkillableness and infinite actions but it requires 1 piece of outside support (a bravura warlord to grant move actions when i spend an action point).

Infinite action points: 
Invert Defeat on myself.  Every time I reduce an ally to 0 or fewer hit points, he heals 2 hit points. 
Avenging Spirit.  Every time I reduce an ally to 0 or fewer hit points, I gain an action point.
Warmaster.  I can use as many action points as I want.
Warmaster.  Every time I use an action point, I grant an ally a standard action.
Bravura ally: every time I spend an action point, I gain a move action.
Martial Mastery: every time I spend an action point, I recall a martial encounter power.

So, first, I use low slash on my near to dead mount (any mount will do), reducing him to 0, granting me an action point.  It's okay though, he immediately heals back to 2 hit points.
I use the action point  to make a basic attack against my mount.  Which grants me another action point and refreshes low slash.
I use low slash with the move action from the bravura to again attack my mount.
Rinse repeat as much as I want.  Each action point i use gives me 2 more, so it just goes on to infinity.  
And one of my friends now has standard actions = # of action points I spent.

Oh and I still have at least one move action left at the end of the whole cycle (heal my mount maybe).


We never die.
When I am at or below 0 hit points, my saving throw bonus versus death saves is: 
5 Disciple of Death
2 Stubborn survivor
1 Crusading Zealot
1 Courageous Mind
+9.  So I dont fall unconscious.  This could also be done with a single item, freeing up 4 feats, but these are all heroic feats so faster than items and who knows maybe theres some other item you want.  Off the top of my head, I would replace these feats with hybrid talent (resourceful warlord), the initiative boosting warlord feat, superior initiative, and some weapon focus once you got the "you never fail a death save" item.

For daze I have:
4 Focused mind
2 Stubborn survivor
1 Crusading Zealot
1 Courageous Mind
+8.  This can easily go over +10 with an item bonus (there are lots that do this, but of course the Horreb Cube is the best).

When I am at or below 0 hit points, I pretty much always save versus daze (start) and death (end). 

So that means my allies get a bonus to thier death saves of:
8 Hero's Poise
5 Harbinger of Rebirth
4 Courageous Example
2 Mantle of Understanding
+19, which means they automatically are entitled to spend a healing surge when they succeed on thier save.  And thanks to Unnatural Mantle they never become unconscious.

Not that it matters much, but they also get +14 to thier daze saves.


Here is the build at 30th level (without items).  Glorious Channeller and Divine Mastery are also throw away feats, could put whatever you want in there - there are lots of great feats that trigger on 0 or below or when you spend an action point, not to mention standard defense feats or extra healing surges.

====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Denis Mortis, level 30
Revenant, Ardent/Warlord, Traveler's Harlequin, Warmaster
Ardent Mantle (Hybrid) Option: Mantle of Clarity (Hybrid)
Hybrid Ardent Option: Hybrid Ardent Will
Warlord Leadership Option: Combat Leader (Hybrid)
Hybrid Warlord Option: Hybrid Warlord Will
Psionic Augmentation (Hybrid) Option: Hybrid Power Point Option
Traveler's Unpredictable Power Option: Traveler's Unpredictable Power (Daily)
Choose your Race in Life: Human
Crusading Zealot (Crusading Zealot Benefit)
Theme: Knight Hospitaler
 
FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 10, CON 13, DEX 26, INT 12, WIS 15, CHA 26
 
STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 8, CON 11, DEX 16, INT 10, WIS 13, CHA 16
 
 
AC: 33 Fort: 26 Ref: 33 Will: 39
HP: 170 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 42
 
TRAINED SKILLS
Arcana +21, Bluff +28, Endurance +23, Religion +21, Thievery +28
 
UNTRAINED SKILLS
Acrobatics +23, Athletics +15, Diplomacy +23, Dungeoneering +17, Heal +19, History +16, Insight +17, Intimidate +25, Nature +17, Perception +17, Stealth +23, Streetwise +23
 
POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Knight Hospitaler Utility: Shield of Devotion
Revenant Utility: Dark Reaping
Ardent Feature: Ardent Surge
Warlord Feature: Inspiring Word
Cleric Utility: Healing Word
Paladin Feature: Divine Mettle
Warlord Attack 1: Direct the Strike
Ardent Utility 2: Healing Bond
Rogue Attack 3: Low Slash
Warlord Utility 6: Invigorating Shout
Warlord Utility 10: Instant Planning
Traveler's Harlequin Attack 11: Traveler's Mummery
Traveler's Harlequin Utility 12: Shape of the Traveler
Ardent Attack 13: Invert Defeat
Warlord Attack 15: War Master's Assault
Warlord Utility 16: Press on Together
Cleric Attack 19: Shackles of the Grave
Ardent Attack 19: Reactive Jaunt Strike
Warlord Utility 22: Rush of Battle
Warlord Attack 23: Critical Misfire
Warmaster Utility 26: Spring the Trap (epic)
Warlord Attack 29: Perfect Front
 
FEATS
Level 1: Initiate of the Faith
Level 2: Mantle of Understanding
Level 4: Unnatural Mantle
Level 6: Disciple of Death
Level 8: Courageous Example
Level 10: Harbinger of Rebirth
Level 11: Divine Channeler (Paladin)
Level 11: Sneak of Shadows
Level 12: Hero's Poise
Level 14: Stubborn Survivor
Level 16: Courageous Mind
Level 18: Superior Will
Level 20: Focused Mind
Level 21: Ghostly Vitality
Level 22: Martial Mastery
Level 24: Glorious Channeler
Level 26: Divine Mastery
Level 28: Avenging Spirit
Level 30: Novice Power
 
ITEMS

====== End ======

I tried making this in the character builder but the feat Templar's Domain doesn't show up or exist in it, I confirmed the existence of the feat in the RC, has it not been added to the CB yet or am I doing something wrong?

Sep 16, 2011 -- 8:25PM, Avalon2099 wrote:

I tried making this in the character builder but the feat Templar's Domain doesn't show up or exist in it, I confirmed the existence of the feat in the RC, has it not been added to the CB yet or am I doing something wrong?

I don't know.

Best i can tell, it's valid.  The feat might just not be there.

Sep 17, 2011 -- 5:33AM, mellored wrote:

Sep 16, 2011 -- 8:25PM, Avalon2099 wrote:

I tried making this in the character builder but the feat Templar's Domain doesn't show up or exist in it, I confirmed the existence of the feat in the RC, has it not been added to the CB yet or am I doing something wrong?

I don't know.

Best i can tell, it's valid.  The feat might just not be there.

Its in there, I just created a 1st level Templar and it was on the Class Feats list.

Sep 17, 2011 -- 2:57PM, rjsilverthorn wrote:

Sep 17, 2011 -- 5:33AM, mellored wrote:

Sep 16, 2011 -- 8:25PM, Avalon2099 wrote:

I tried making this in the character builder but the feat Templar's Domain doesn't show up or exist in it, I confirmed the existence of the feat in the RC, has it not been added to the CB yet or am I doing something wrong?

I don't know.

Best i can tell, it's valid.  The feat might just not be there.

Its in there, I just created a 1st level Templar and it was on the Class Feats list.

Okay I JUST tried to make this build, Im assuming its a Hybrid Ardent|Cleric right? when I go to select the level 6 feat "Templar's Domain" is not there. I must be doing something wrong?

I doesn't show up if you are an hybrid cleric, it's not the only bug of the builder. 

Weird Invert Defeat question:

Hit: 1[W] + Charisma modifier damage. If the target bloodies an ally or hits a bloodied ally with an attack before the end of your next turn, that ally regains hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier.

So what -is- the timing on the HP regain?  If an ally is bloodied and they are hit, do they gain HP when they are hit or after the attack is resolved, or is hit=damage one thing, or what?

Basically does it function as an interupt (all is hit, ally gains HP, all takes damage) or does it function as a reaction (ally is hit, ally takes damage, alles gains HP)?

Edit: Also I suppose you could roll a natural 1 on the basic attack AND low slash but the chances are 5%x5%, assuming you are 1-checking your mount's defenses

Still a pretty funny level 30 capstone. 

Sep 18, 2011 -- 7:24AM, GrandTheftGreyhawk wrote:

Weird Invert Defeat question:

Hit: 1[W] + Charisma modifier damage. If the target bloodies an ally or hits a bloodied ally with an attack before the end of your next turn, that ally regains hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier.

So what -is- the timing on the HP regain?  If an ally is bloodied and they are hit, do they gain HP when they are hit or after the attack is resolved, or is hit=damage one thing, or what?

After.  Timing is always after.

Thus, as long as you hit, that enemy can't do much.

Edit: Also I suppose you could roll a natural 1 on the basic attack AND low slash but the chances are 5%x5%, assuming you are 1-checking your mount's defenses

That would fail the bag of rat's rule.  You can't benifit from attacking your mount.

Nor would a mount who keeps getting stabbed by you likely count as an ally. 

Sep 18, 2011 -- 7:34AM, mellored wrote:

Sep 18, 2011 -- 7:24AM, GrandTheftGreyhawk wrote:

Weird Invert Defeat question:

Hit: 1[W] + Charisma modifier damage. If the target bloodies an ally or hits a bloodied ally with an attack before the end of your next turn, that ally regains hit points equal to your Wisdom modifier.

So what -is- the timing on the HP regain?  If an ally is bloodied and they are hit, do they gain HP when they are hit or after the attack is resolved, or is hit=damage one thing, or what?

After.  Timing is always after.

Thus, as long as you hit, that enemy can't do much.

Edit: Also I suppose you could roll a natural 1 on the basic attack AND low slash but the chances are 5%x5%, assuming you are 1-checking your mount's defenses

That would fail the bag of rat's rule.  You can't benifit from attacking your mount.

Nor would a mount who keeps getting stabbed by you likely count as an ally. 

Oh the whole thing is silly, but you could keep Frank the Paladin with Reflex defense of 6(magic)+15(half level)+2(shield)+3(improved defenses)+1(dex) for a total of 27 and still be reliabily 1-checking him.  I think that Bag of Rats is clearly invoked here, and its not suitable for any kind of game you'd play in, but its amusingly silly at level 30 anyway.

And at level 30, the game is over so builds that ONLY work at level 30 with specific things in play etc so forth always make me smirk and I ignore them - I can still appreciate the sillyness. 

Actually with that paragon path, you are rolling twice with your AP attacks, so it's a double 1's % chance of missing, and of course, this is 1 rat not a bag of rats, but Im right there with ya on this being silly.  If you just wanted infinite AP's, you wouldnt need to get this complicated or need to rely on having an bravura around.  You would just be an ardent/warlord-mc ranger with horizon walker and warmaster.  Pretty silly.

Did a bit of an update.  Mainly taking the hospitaler theme, items, and switching the PP to zealous demogorge (more thematic).

But she intimidates pretty well now too.  47 (52 vs hostile), which means most bloody enemies (12+30+10 = 52) will surrender on a 0 (vecna on a 9).

If an ally drops below 0 hp, can they perform actions before they make their death saving throw?  If not, what exactly are the advantages of keeping them from going unconcious in the first place?

Benefit: While you have at least 1 power point, allies within the area of your Ardent Mantle remain conscious when dropped to 0 or fewer hit points until they roll their first death saving throw.

when allies roll their first death saving throw, they fall unconcious wheter they succed or fail. am i missing something???

and i consulted the compendium today. if theres any other feat/feature im missing, let me know. 

If an ally drops below 0 hp, can they perform actions before they make their death saving throw?

Yes.  And it gives you time to heal them.

Sep 29, 2011 -- 4:51PM, saigon wrote:

when allies roll their first death saving throw, they fall unconcious wheter they succed or fail. am i missing something???

You give +9 to death saves.  So they have a 50% chance (or higher if they take some stuff themselves) of spending a surge, and thus not falling unconcious.



Worst case, all they loose is oppertunity/interupt actions, and a move/minor to stand up.

A party of warforged only needs to find +1 more to auto burn a surge. 
Have a Gatekeeper in the party that grants himself a +9 to death saves and 3-5 high Con warforged anything with Periapts of Recovery. 
As long as they stay within 5 of one another (resolute armor might be helpful) and the gatekeeper does not use his last PSP, healing becomes trivial...at least until people start running out of surges.

Sep 30, 2011 -- 8:51AM, sCRuLooSe wrote:

A party of warforged only needs to find +1 more to auto burn a surge. 
Have a Gatekeeper in the party that grants himself a +9 to death saves and 3-5 high Con warforged anything with Periapts of Recovery. 
As long as they stay within 5 of one another (resolute armor might be helpful) and the gatekeeper does not use his last PSP, healing becomes trivial...at least until people start running out of surges.

Yea, but it seems better to have a few battlecrazed minotaurs of the iron wolf clan.

Band of warforged followers with unyielding vigor to surge on a death save of 18+ and so never fail with gatekeeper around. Or maybe a mix of warforged and crazy minotaurs.

Minotaurs don't need a PP or multiclass anyway.  Stick Self-Forged onto the minotaur and you are set. 

Death's Gatekeeper and the Bionic Minotaurs...

Sep 30, 2011 -- 11:52AM, sCRuLooSe wrote:

Minotaurs don't need a PP or multiclass anyway.  Stick Self-Forged onto the minotaur and you are set. 

That works.

How about the new Master of Stories MC feat for the extra encounter heal? Should be competitive with Bardic Ritualist, and definitely better than Bardic Dilettante.

I've got a preference for ritual casting.  But you can take both.

Also, in epic, you can get 2 MC bard feats for the price of one.

Any reason not to run 16 wis/cha preracial and use reach weapon + recovery strike?  You mention it but don't use it for your example.

Pro:

• You can nab some useful wis powers at decent accuracy... if you target Will instead of AC you'll probably end up more accurate than your Charisma vs. AC some of the time.
• For whiffing, starting Str 8 with a +2 prof weapon vs AC is going to be lower than starting (Wis 13) + 2 vs Will.   
• You'll want to be in melee range as an Ardent anyway
• You'll get to use Astral Seal (as intended) in heroic to allow your allies the option to hit an enemy on their pre-death save Unnatural Mantle turn in order to go back above 0
• If you wanted to use a longsword instead of a reach weapon you could run Rose King's Reprise for another layer of hit/miss healing catch-22 (albeit with someone spending a healing surge as a condition)

Con:

• Recovery Strike w/ or w/out reach = shorter range (as you mention)

I was playing her as a lazy leader mostly for RP reasons. (Also saves a feat)

But no reason she couldn't try and hit stuff.  And hitting with astral seal / recovery strike makes alot more sense in heroic.  Especially since you can switch in paragon as you pointed out.  And you could always retrain out of expertise later.

So yea, that's probably more optimal.

MC Soldier of Virtue (x1 day self undaze) for Hero's Poise?  Requires that you save against a condition, but should set up a near-auto surge. 

Would probably do well to invest in abilities that allow transfer of conditions from allies to yourself if you were bothering to do this. 

I'd have to see it built out before I can really comment.  Not sure you could reliably fit everything into the build, or find a way to reliably make saves (passafist + stun saves should help)

But it seems like it might work.

I've been playing this basic build and it's a blast. Yesterday I had a dragonborn paladin do the dying/living ping-pong for several rounds and it was hilarious. I don't like lazy builds so I went with an active melee using Demoralizing Strike as the go-to at-will and Recovery Strike as the whiff power (+6 vs AC at level 11 = easy miss even when I rolled an 18); I found that I don't need a whole lot of healing powers outside of the ones that come built-in (class features, theme powers, Recovery Strike) and I like being to to debuff the enemy, grant saves at-will, etc. I won't detail the other changes (which are minor) but here's my character Blaspheme.

Oh yeah, since my character's personality is all about "you must prove your worth by suffering" that, when the battle's going well, I've had some fun by throwing the characters who hang back from melee and taken little or no damage into the fray via Fanatic Charge:
Me: "You, wizard! You must suffer! Charge that enemy!"
Wizard: "What?! Nooooo!"

Jan 30, 2012 -- 8:09AM, StarKiller_ wrote:

I've been playing this basic build and it's a blast. Yesterday I had a dragonborn paladin do the dying/living ping-pong for several rounds and it was hilarious. I don't like lazy builds so I went with an active melee using Demoralizing Strike as the go-to at-will and Recovery Strike as the whiff power (+6 vs AC at level 11 = easy miss even when I rolled an 18); I found that I don't need a whole lot of healing powers outside of the ones that come built-in (class features, theme powers, Recovery Strike) and I like being to to debuff the enemy, grant saves at-will, etc. I won't detail the other changes (which are minor) but here's my character Blaspheme.

Oh yeah, since my character's personality is all about "you must prove your worth by suffering" that, when the battle's going well, I've had some fun by throwing the characters who hang back from melee and taken little or no damage into the fray via Fanatic Charge:
Me: "You, wizard! You must suffer! Charge that enemy!"
Wizard: "What?! Nooooo!"

Heh...

Yea, this build is well overpowered.  You need to to nerf it somehow for home games.  Throwing your wizard into melee is a good way. 

I'll make a note about too much healing.  I figured it might be, but i havn't had a chance to play it.

But why a Dwarf ? She looks so awesome in the picture and then i look at the build and BAM dwarf ??
Please tell me I can go without dwarf?

May 2, 2012 -- 9:31AM, DrakonianThunder wrote:

But why a Dwarf ? She looks so awesome in the picture and then i look at the build and BAM dwarf ??
Please tell me I can go without dwarf?

So you can second wind + Bolstering Wind as a minor.

And for shield the fallen.

But it's possible to skip those, or just roleplay something else.

Heh, I was so gonna try this... then I remembered I play in the Dark Sun Setting :-(

May 10, 2012 -- 9:54PM, HeirRaktus wrote:

Heh, I was so gonna try this... then I remembered I play in the Dark Sun Setting :-(

It can be modified.  The core is being a revenant ardent, which works in darksun.  Granted, it won't be as strong without the cleric's mass healing, so you shouldn't let the party start battles bloodied.

Whats a good replacement for the Cleric side then?

May 11, 2012 -- 5:47AM, HeirRaktus wrote:

Whats a good replacement for the Cleric side then?

Hmm...

Probably ardnet|warlord/shaman/everflame guardian.

And take Mending Spirit + Fight On.  Along with Knight Hospitaliter, and the past soul + bostering wind, you should be set on healing.  You can then lazy it up.

Definently works better outside Dark Sun

I mean, is it even worth it without the cleric feats?