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Apr 24, 2011 -- 12:25AM, Duskweaver wrote:

Well, incompleteness is not necessarily proof of defect. If something achieves what it set out to achieve, then it's a success. If the vampire class allowed someone to play a vampire and remain approximately on par with other strikers in the game, then a lack of options when building the character would not in itself be a defect. For example, the slayer has very few options, yet it allows you to play a heavily armoured martial striker (a character concept that was previously difficult to achieve) that can kill things as efficiently as can other strikers with more choices.

The problem with the vampire, and the reason why it is a failure as a class, is that it is grossly underpowered as a striker. The lack of options only exacerbates this by making it impossible to improve a vampire character above its baseline through canny power choices. The vampire is perfectly playable, and I'm sure it can be a lot of fun, but it is not a competent striker. If a vampire is the only striker in a party, the DM will need to adjust combat encounters as if the party did not have a striker.

4e classes each have a defined combat role. A class not capable of fulfilling its role competently is a design failure, regardless of how cool it otherwise is. A class that is either massively better or massively worse at its role than other classes of that role is not a well-designed class and has no place in the game.

It's not about symmetry. It's about balance and keeping trap choices out of the game (which 4e has been excellent at until recently). The vampire class, like the pre-Essentials assassin and the shade race, is a trap. New players will be drawn to these options because they look cool, and will end up frustrated because their characters will be significantly weaker than the baseline. A vampire is likely to be getting out-damaged by their party's defender, and that's just pathetic.

As it is, I would recommend that anyone who wants to play a 'vampire' play a vryloka character instead, and pick a class, feats and powers that feel suitably vampiric.

Great post. One of the big reasons to me that the vampire is just poorly designed, it just seems to lack what it needs to do its job in a group which is the job of a striker.This would be the same for any class that cannot do its role in a group. Maybe WOTC will eratta some things but I will not be holding my breath.

To me from a mechanics point of view the first post essentials class is a flop. Maybe the classes that will come after this point will be better designed than the vampire, cause I am looking forward to the class from the neverwinter setting.

Apr 24, 2011 -- 7:48AM, Thunder_Dragonbane wrote:

Don't hold your breath.The bladesinger will most likely be even worse as I have yet to be convinced that the current DEV team really knows how the game works.
They ask for help for fracks sake and then ignore it.  

It'll likely be an Elf/Eladrin/Half-Elf only class that is based off Cha.. which would be almost as bad as the Eladrin Knight...

Apr 24, 2011 -- 1:55PM, Salla wrote:

Apr 24, 2011 -- 1:53PM, CelticMutt wrote:

2) There is absolutely nothing wrong with one build for one class being race-restricted.  It's something 4e should have been doing since day one.  The Eladrin Knight is perfectly fine being restricted.

I cannot disagree with that more.  Classes should not ever be racially restricted.  Paragon paths, sure.  But a basic class or build?  No way.

I couldn't agree more with you, race restricted classes seem like a form of "fantasy racism" (for lack of a better word). Those class restrictions seems to be the fantasy equivalent of saying "we have this job people can apply for, but curtain groups within our society can't apply because "they're different". This on the other hand is oke with certain amount of paragon paths as it represents a niche of a class.
To pull a equivalent from reality, fighter pilots (and commercial pilots if i'm correct) need to have a certain natural vision (so no glasses) and must fit in a certain height category to apply for such job, while other kinds of pilots don't. Or of course just clubs with its own rituals rites and secrets could also fit as an example.

All such (with race restriction) classes are based of an idea (essentials classes) not a thing where you can create your own idea with, with minor to no tweaking (pre-essentials classes).
Personal I find the essentials classes also, fluff wise, restricted because you lose allot of creative freedom with your character. (and because of that designers can make more fluff because there is less verity) So more class related fluff (not builds parse) is less creative freedom, in general. But i'm drifting off topic.

So there are race restrictions on classes its the right direction if you want a DnD with 2 options, class and race (see our friend mister Nosferatu in HoS, that already that philosophy pretty far). But thats not the DnD I want to see, as I want to create my own heroes in depth.