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To address the last point first: Speed of Thought is irrelevant, as Shattered Time is not a power you use at the beginning of an encounter.  In my experience, it's a power you use when the encounter is in full swing and there's an established area in which enemies want to be.  That could be because of terrain, or your controller, or whatever, but you then move into the area and use Shattered Time to force enemies into either sub-ideal positioning or into absorbing your punishment.

That desired area can be established by packing your allies in close, but as you point out, that's a bad idea.  Rather, your better bet is to set up a chokepoint.  If the enemy has a choice between standing in the Shattered Time zone and trying to pass through your melee line, crossing through a Grease or Mirage Arcana zone in hopes of flanking, or taking a really long route around both zones, then Shattered Time shines.

Messing around a bit in the builder, and I noticed that CON/DEX Battleminds in Hide can actually get the Level+18 rating that's desired by Defenders with a shield equipped and without feats spent into Scale or Plate improvements.  With that in mind, and assuming I'm using the Persistent Harrier Psionic Study and Unbound Nomad paragon path, could a CON/DEX Battlemind go from 1 to 16 be an effective Defender throughout its career?

Hide with a +4 is the same as scale.  It's nice for the lack of the speed penalty, but Scale Spec gets rid of that and gives you +1 AC.  Worth using Hide in heroic tier, but scale becomes just as good if not better with specialization.

Dex is a perfectly good secondary stat.  Many of the good Battlemind powers don't rely on having a good wis/cha, and you can absolutely make a good defender without them.

Oct 29, 2011 -- 8:17PM, Mand12 wrote:

Hide with a +4 is the same as scale.  It's nice for the lack of the speed penalty, but Scale Spec gets rid of that and gives you +1 AC.  Worth using Hide in heroic tier, but scale becomes just as good if not better with specialization.

Dex is a perfectly good secondary stat.  Many of the good Battlemind powers don't rely on having a good wis/cha, and you can absolutely make a good defender without them.

Excellent, thanks.

From what I can tell, I'm already gaining some empty feat slots: I use Dexterity for initiative (and I'm a Harrier anyway, so using Charisma to jackhammer my initiative into the correct postition isn't necessary), I can optimize teleport distance and thus take away the need for Harrying Step at level 16, the aforementioned Scale Spec is completely unnecessary (especially as the Elven Chain Shirt is available to me, and would actually allow me to use a two-handed weapon while still maintaining a level+18 AC once I get the +2 version).  My Reflex would be a tad underwhelming, but having a high DEX would again fix that.

Unfortunately, you'll still need to pick up Hide Specialization at some point, so that won't be entirely a saved feat.

As Mand12 said, Dex can definitely be made to work.  I'm not personally a huge fan of the option, largely because it makes Will your worst defense, which leaves you that much more vulnerable to immediate-deying status effects.  On the other hand, you're not likely to be any worse than a fighter or warden in this respect, so yes, definitely doable.

Oct 30, 2011 -- 2:16AM, Dedekine wrote:

Unfortunately, you'll still need to pick up Hide Specialization at some point, so that won't be entirely a saved feat.

Ah, very true. 

My DM almost always respects my marks, what are some of the best ways to exploit that?  I have Forceful Reversal, and I always spend a PP on it, so I get two attacks per round.  Is there anything like White Lotus Riposte for Psionic classes?

Nov 2, 2011 -- 12:15PM, fozzybear wrote:

My DM almost always respects my marks, what are some of the best ways to exploit that?  I have Forceful Reversal, and I always spend a PP on it, so I get two attacks per round.  Is there anything like White Lotus Riposte for Psionic classes?

You'd take a bit of a hit to your defenses, but if you're a CON/WIS Battlemind with some STR to spare, and you have a Polearm, you could perhaps try Polearm Gamble?

Sorry to double-post(ish), but I just realized something...

There's another perk to being a CON/DEX Battlemind: opportunity attacks.  With the new MC Monk feat, I both gain access to a unique set of enchantments (Rain of Hammers could be super fun), and unpenalized Melee Training Dexterity.  Would have to wield nothing in my hands except for a heavy shield, but that's fine - there're feats to help make the Unarmed Strike worthwhile.

That sounds awesome thematically.  Dunno if it's optimized or not, since MC fighter has so many good things to poach.

But the idea of a really touch guy who beats you with his fist powered by his mind is just sweet.

[EDIT] Actaully, no, it wouldn't work.  I have to be a hybrid Monk|Battlemind to make it work (since I need the Flurry of Blows feature as well).  It would allow me to take MC Fighter, but it's not as fluid as I hoped.

Ah well.

This might be the best Captain America build yet!

Nov 5, 2011 -- 4:29PM, DuelistDelSol wrote:

[EDIT] Actaully, no, it wouldn't work.  I have to be a hybrid Monk|Battlemind to make it work (since I need the Flurry of Blows feature as well).  It would allow me to take MC Fighter, but it's not as fluid as I hoped.

Ah well.

Couldn't you just take that monk multiclass feat that gives you flurry of blows in addition to Master of the Fist? It's kind of feat intensive, but it gives you a respectable OA, something that most Battleminds lack.

Nov 5, 2011 -- 4:49PM, Lord_Ventnor wrote:

Couldn't you just take that monk multiclass feat that gives you flurry of blows in addition to Master of the Fist? It's kind of feat intensive, but it gives you a respectable OA, something that most Battleminds lack.

They're both Multiclass Feats.

You can take multiple multiclass feats as long as they're from the same class.

Nov 5, 2011 -- 5:07PM, d20danko wrote:

You can take multiple multiclass feats as long as they're from the same class.

Whoa wait, what?  I had no idea you could do that O.o

[Edit] Apparently wouldn't work either.  I need the *feature*, not just the power. 

Just a quick update.  Adding the Heroes of the Feywild stuff will probably not happen until late November due to other time constraints, but it will happen.

Heroes of the Feywild has been added, along with Moonshae Isles themes.  I'd be very interested in hearing any play experience people might have with pixie battleminds.  My impression is that they don't have quite as much to offer to battleminds as fighters or wardens, but experience will tell.

On other notes, I've bumped the rating for halflings up.  They were mostly held down by the lack of good weapons, and with that no longer as much an issue, their defensive options merit serious consideration.  Also, I feel that the theme section is getting a bit unwieldy, and there's little sign that the rate of new themes is slowing down.  Do people feel that having a rating for all themes from a battlemind perspective is useful?  Alternatively, I could just link to dedicated theme handbooks, and (perhaps) include a list of particularly worthwhile themes for battleminds?

Nov 24, 2011 -- 1:56AM, Dedekine wrote:

Do people feel that having a rating for all themes from a battlemind perspective is useful?  Alternatively, I could just link to dedicated theme handbooks, and (perhaps) include a list of particularly worthwhile themes for battleminds?

Maybe just a quick glance and listing those that would be rated black/blue/skyblue, or would look like a trap option?

Nov 24, 2011 -- 1:56AM, Dedekine wrote:

On other notes, I've bumped the rating for halflings up.  They were mostly held down by the lack of good weapons, and with that no longer as much an issue, their defensive options merit serious consideration.

You know... now that I think about it, the weapon situation for Halflings is still a little awkward.  Rapiers are great, and their native DEX will really help with making a Light Blade something to fear, but on the Pick side of things, they cannot get a die size higher than d8 without being a two-hander or a Superior weapon.  

The Heavy Warpick is a great weapon for them, especially with the accelerated damage from Pick Expertise and the fact that they're automatically proficient in it, but this means they lose their Shield bonus to AC.  The Serrated Pick is kind of nice, but it basically amounts to spending a feat to throw high-crit and +1/2/3 damage on a Battleaxe, and trimming off the Axe support (of which there's plenty).

However, there's still Lost in the Crowd, a feat that, while not really patching up the Battlemind's derpy Reflex, will supplement the missing 2 AC from not having a Shield while wielding a Heavy Warpick.  Against a solo, Level+16 AC may be dangerous, but in a crowded battlefield, a Battlemind is going to want to have creatures surrounding him, giving him the bonus very easily and allowing him to have his L+18 AC while being able to hit with a d12HC weapon.  In any case, the extra DEX will allow the little guy to qualify for Scale Spec. in Paragon, so that's a bit more patchwork in the long run.  

As far as I can see, the weapon of choice for the halfling is actually the War Pick.  With Pick Expertise, Scrappy, and Small Warrior's Defense, you now have a +2, 1d8+3/5/7 weapon at no penalty in AC or Reflex.  Ignoring accuracy, that's average damage of 7.5/9.5/11.5.  For comparison, the gouge is also +2 with average damage of 8.  Obviously that's a bit of an unfair comparison, as the feat support for gouges is miles better, but a halfling can use picks to pile on damage while keeping his AC and Reflex up. 

Personally, I'm a fan of a halfling battlemind with a longsword.  Again you take Scrappy and SWD.  With Heavy Blade Expertise and Quicksilver Demon you have +8 AC vs OAs and +6 NADs vs OAs, meaning you can LR with impunity.  Add to that being able to move through large and larger creature's spaces and you have a mobile defender that can't be pinned down.

Nov 25, 2011 -- 6:57AM, Dedekine wrote:

As far as I can see, the weapon of choice for the halfling is actually the War Pick.  With Pick Expertise, Scrappy, and Small Warrior's Defense, you now have a +2, 1d8+3/5/7 weapon at no penalty in AC or Reflex.  Ignoring accuracy, that's average damage of 7.5/9.5/11.5.  For comparison, the gouge is also +2 with average damage of 8.  Obviously that's a bit of an unfair comparison, as the feat support for gouges is miles better, but a halfling can use picks to pile on damage while keeping his AC and Reflex up. 

Oh wow... Small Warrior's Defense IS pretty damn awesome.  Would make a Waraxe worth using as well.

And you're definitely on the nose with the Warpick.  So glad Mordenkainen's finally gave us some awesome Pick support: its trickledown effects rock.

A longsword QD halfling is great when it's running, I agree.  The reason the pick has changed the halfling's rating and the longsword didn't, for what it's worth, is that the war pick works reasonably well without any investment.  A halfling really needs SWD before a longsword is a viable option, so you either start with another weapon or suffer from badly below-par defences (or, of course, start at level 2 or later).  While the war pick doesn't really shine until you have Scrappy and SWD, the Small property takes a lot of pressure off you in choosing your first few feats.  Same argument applies to a waraxe, etc.

Nov 25, 2011 -- 12:14PM, Dedekine wrote:

A longsword QD halfling is great when it's running, I agree.  The reason the pick has changed the halfling's rating and the longsword didn't, for what it's worth, is that the war pick works reasonably well without any investment.  A halfling really needs SWD before a longsword is a viable option, so you either start with another weapon or suffer from badly below-par defences (or, of course, start at level 2 or later).  While the war pick doesn't really shine until you have Scrappy and SWD, the Small property takes a lot of pressure off you in choosing your first few feats.  Same argument applies to a waraxe, etc.

Oh absolutely.  I mostly just stumbled upon the combo while trying to make a halfling battlemind after they got the optional CON bonus.  I also like the longsword for HBO, which the pick cannot get.

So the pick is more damaging, but the longsword can make you much stickier.

So confession time: I am unlikely to pick up the Book of Vile Darkness.  I will keep an eye out for material out of the book which would be appropriate for the handbook, but without the book in hand any advice or pointers people can provide regarding BoVD material would be greatly appreciated.

Also: sorry about the broken sblocks, no fix obvious yet. 

Dec 13, 2011 -- 8:03AM, Dedekine wrote:

So confession time: I am unlikely to pick up the Book of Vile Darkness.  I will keep an eye out for material out of the book which would be appropriate for the handbook, but without the book in hand any advice or pointers people can provide regarding BoVD material would be greatly appreciated.

Also: sorry about the broken sblocks, no fix obvious yet. 

To be fair, I don't think a lot would be missing from this guide without incorporating Vile Darkness.  Nothing's really looking spectacular in that Book.

Don't forget the Goblin Totem enchantment - for all your high-damage small-character needs.

Dec 13, 2011 -- 5:32PM, DuelistDelSol wrote:

Dec 13, 2011 -- 8:03AM, Dedekine wrote:

So confession time: I am unlikely to pick up the Book of Vile Darkness.  I will keep an eye out for material out of the book which would be appropriate for the handbook, but without the book in hand any advice or pointers people can provide regarding BoVD material would be greatly appreciated.

Also: sorry about the broken sblocks, no fix obvious yet. 

To be fair, I don't think a lot would be missing from this guide without incorporating Vile Darkness.  Nothing's really looking spectacular in that Book.

There's several ways of moving attacks around.  Reverse lightning rush can be very useful if the team is setup right.

Admittedly, less so for battleminds then other defenders (unless you get rapid mindspike, prescent spike, and the "slide 1" spike, and other possible boosts).

Jan 8, 2012 -- 9:12AM, DougTheSlug wrote:

Then lets look at the attack sequence (PHB 269):

1. Choose the attack you'll use.  Each attack has an attack type.

What step of the attack sequence has the keyword use required to trigger the Opportunity Attack?  Step 1.

Quoting the relevant bits from your post...

There is a problem with your argument.  You think step 1 says that you use the power.  What it actually says is that you choose the power you will use.  These are not equivalent.  What is actually considered to be "using" the power isn't explicitly defined, as far as I know, and thus the debate over whether or not you can get an OA after LR (I say debate, but it is generally accepted within the community that you can).

One could just as easily argue the opposite view from yours.  Because step 1 uses "you'll use", a contraction of "you will use", which is future tense, step 1 is explicitly NOT using the attack.  Additionally, each of steps 2-5 could be considered collectively as "using" the attack, and so if one is adjacent during any of those steps the enemy could provoke an OA.

Step 1 indeed does not satisfy the "Power is being used", as it mentions the future tense there.  After Step 1 concludes and resolves, THEN the power is being used.

Jan 8, 2012 -- 9:41AM, pete5528 wrote:

You think step 1 says that you use the power.  What it actually says is that you choose the power you will use.  These are not equivalent.  What is actually considered to be "using" the power isn't explicitly defined, as far as I know, and thus the debate over whether or not you can get an OA after LR (I say debate, but it is generally accepted within the community that you can).

Interesting, I'd missed the future tense there.
But if Step #1 isn't the "use", I would argue that neither is 2, as it is once again prep for usage.  Based on that same logic, the wording "for the attack" indicates that the attack has not started yet in Step 2, and so technically, neither has being actually targeted.  You've only chosen what to target, but you've not actually targeted anything yet because the attack hasn't started.  As such, the use doesn't begin until Step 3, when both the "use" and "targeted" triggers would occur.

I just want to make sure I get all this clear, cause it has repercussions all over.

With the caveat that this isn't really how the system works, I would agree that LR basically occurs between step 2 and step 3 -- that is, upon the enemy choosing both the attack type and the target, which from the triggers for LR.  That tends to support the LR+OA combo.

Frankly, though, it's a bloody mess and I've rewritten the LR entry to make clear that there is a question as to the interaction of LR and OAs. 

Jan 9, 2012 -- 3:57AM, Dedekine wrote:

With the caveat that this isn't really how the system works, I would agree that LR basically occurs between step 2 and step 3 -- that is, upon the enemy choosing both the attack type and the target, which from the triggers for LR.  That tends to support the LR+OA combo.

Frankly, though, it's a bloody mess and I've rewritten the LR entry to make clear that there is a question as to the interaction of LR and OAs. 

Well, at this point, my argument has been accurately countered and invalidated, which means unless new arguments are brought to the table, I believe LR+OA is valid.  I'm just trying to get clarification because one of my core assumptions was rendered invalid which has repercussions elsewhere.  This might not be the right place to do that though

If you're taking the too-technical-for-consistency step-based interpretation, the OA trigger actually happens before the LR trigger, because OA is "uses a ranged power."

But assuming you're dealing with the interpretation that actually functions properly, the triggers still happen at the same time.  And while LR does resolve before its trigger resolves, it does not resolve before its trigger happens, which means that you are not in position to OA when the OA trigger happens in either interpretation.

It's worth noting that the consensus is that Step 1 in the RC Making Attacks sequence is when you use the power and when the power is considered expended.

Jan 9, 2012 -- 10:16AM, Mand12 wrote:

It's worth noting that the consensus is that Step 1 in the RC Making Attacks sequence is when you use the power and when the power is considered expended.

Do you have a page for the RC?  The only reference I can find is in the glossary - Page 308 - attack.  But it doesn't list steps.
The only place I've actually seen steps 1-5 listed is the PHB (p269).  I can't even find the step in the online compendium... 

If you're referring to the steps in the PHB, as countered by pete5528, the wording is clear that the "use" has not occurred yet in that step.  So as far as I can tell, the technical step based interpretation still supports LR+OA.

Forgive me if this has been discussed in this thread but outside the main guide. To get right to the point, if you want to rely on Mind Spike instead of Lightning Rush as your primary mark punishment, what options are there to make you, well, threatening with it? From your guide, it seems like the feats that increase Mind Spike are generally pretty bad, and as an auto-damage power similar to Magic Missile, there doesn't seem to be a lot we can do to indirectly improve it. Is the best option just to use sticky tricks to make sure that you're pretty much always going to be in range to use MS, then hope that its native damage (especially against MM3 monsters) is enough of a deterrent? To that end, are there any special strategies that you've found work especially well? I fully understand that Lightning Rush is the best mark punishment Battleminds have available to them, but just for kicks, I'm exploring what other options are out there, just to see something different.

MS isn't horrible.  It's actually kinda good with the MM3 monsters.  It's just not great.

As for improving it, well it depends on your DM and how often he provokes as to weather it's worth it., but the big 2 upgrade is precient strike + lure of iron.  You'll then get to negate some attacks since you can slide as an interupt.

Also, battlemind powers can do plenty to protect allies by themselves (lodestone lure), even if you never mark.


Though the most wicked combo i've come up with is blurred step + evermeet warlock (level 16) + planestrider boots + staff of the traveler + teleport booster(s).  They shift, you teleport, grab an ally, and teleport him away.  Oh, and you turn invisible for your troubles.

Feb 6, 2012 -- 1:21PM, RayjeEliwan wrote:

Forgive me if this has been discussed in this thread but outside the main guide. To get right to the point, if you want to rely on Mind Spike instead of Lightning Rush as your primary mark punishment, what options are there to make you, well, threatening with it?

As mellored said, Mind Spike is decent by itself.  My experience is that the trick to using Mind Spike effectively boils down primarily to two things: stickiness and target selection.  Stickiness is obvious for all the usual reasons.  The point of target selection is that Mind Spike is a credible threat in direct proportion to the damage potential of the monster.  Brutes and lurkers are great targets; controllers less so.

The most straightforward way to upgrade Mind Spike is through Conductive Defense.  Adding a shift is the other major upgrade.  Partly this is for the ability to interfere with multi-hits (or any attack, come epic and Prescient Retaliation), but also for Deadly Draw.  Effectively, you can think of this as making your standard attack part of your punishment through added accuracy.  Lure of Iron works here; you'll probably want to look at taking Wild Focus for Telekinetic Savant as well.

For a paragon path, I'd probably take Blackstone Guardian rather than Steel Ego.  The immobilisation helps a lot with stickiness issues, and Monolithic Vision frees up the Lure of Iron feat slot.  

One possible strategy that the sliding approach creates, by the way, is to remove the option of the enemy to choose Mind Spike.  That is, if you're as sticky as you should be, you can use the slides off Mind Spike to move the enemy away from your allies so that his only option is to attack you.  Invest in defences (Iron Fist is a good starting place), and neuter the enemy that way.

Lastly, keep in mind that there are very significant play differences between a Mind Spike battlemind and a "conventional" battlemind.  A Lightning Rush battlemind's zone of control makes him an effective party defender.  A Mind Spike battlemind, on the other hand, is much more in the vein of a single-target controller.  The need to keep enemies adjacent will prevent you from reliably defending against more than one enemy, and Blurred Step will make it very hard for you to act as any sort of wall.  Early on in each combat, try to use a 1 point augmented Battlemind's Demand to mark both your target of the moment and another enemy not as susceptible to Mind Spike, simply to spread the grief somewhat. 

Feb 6, 2012 -- 1:40PM, mellored wrote:

MS isn't horrible.  It's actually kinda good with the MM3 monsters.  It's just not great.

As for improving it, well it depends on your DM and how often he provokes as to weather it's worth it., but the big 2 upgrade is precient strike + lure of iron.  You'll then get to negate some attacks since you can slide as an interupt.

Also, battlemind powers can do plenty to protect allies by themselves (lodestone lure), even if you never mark.


Though the most wicked combo i've come up with is blurred step + evermeet warlock (level 16) + planestrider boots + staff of the traveler + teleport booster(s).  They shift, you teleport, grab an ally, and teleport him away.  Oh, and you turn invisible for your troubles.

How would Planestrider Boots interact with Harrying Step, which doesn't explicitly bound the distance you teleport, only where you can teleport to?

Feb 6, 2012 -- 8:10PM, pete5528 wrote:

How would Planestrider Boots interact with Harrying Step, which doesn't explicitly bound the distance you teleport, only where you can teleport to?

It would seem to be ambigious.  Personally, I'd rule that the distance restriction on the boots would effectively not exist, so you'd have two teleports, but both would need to end adjacent to the triggering enemy.   The only other possible interpretation would allow a first teleport that was arbitrary in direction and distance so long as you could end the second teleport adjacent to the triggering enemy, which is pretty bent.

I could also see it as having the distance defined in a per-use basis.  Say you're adjacent to your enemy, and he shifts one square away from you.  From this point, the maximum distance you could teleport would be three (to the far side of the enemy from your starting square).  This then becomes the distance that cannot be exceeded.  Which is not great, as I'm not sure that any teleport boosters could apply.

But it is definitely ambiguous, and you could make an argument for any of these.  The interpretation of no boundary, as long as the second teleport puts you adjacent to the shifting enemy, would be quite insane. 

Even the interpretation where both teleports must end adjacent to the enemy is delicious, as it's basically Mel's combo minus the staff and shift/teleport booster requirements.

Noticed an issue with Shadow Ally - it's not as powerful since it has to stay within range of you and needs to maintain line of effect...  As a defender / front line character, this means it's likely to be easily targeted at some point and destroyed...  Further, if you're using things like LR and bouncing around like a pinball, it may become more difficult to keep it in range at the end of your turn when the range check is enforced.

• Shadow Ally (PHB3): Manifest the shadow ally at the beginning of combat, and then run him as far away as you can manage.  Presto: a utility that gives you +4 to all defences for an encounter. 

Feb 9, 2012 -- 10:28AM, DougTheSlug wrote:

Noticed an issue with Shadow Ally - it's not as powerful since it has to stay within range of you and needs to maintain line of effect...

Good catch, thank you very much.  That diminishes its value a lot, as far as I can see, and I've changed the rating to reflect that.

Sorry to nitpick at this point, but your new text doesn't feel quite accurate yet...

• quote: but between area-of-effect and multi-target attacks and minions who exist to waste their attacks on this sort of thing

Feb 10, 2012 -- 6:44PM, DougTheSlug wrote:

Sorry to nitpick at this point, but your new text doesn't feel quite accurate yet...

I've taken out the reference to the area effects -- thank you again.  I'd agree with your breakdown of threatening attacks; the conjuration rules (unless I'm misreading them again!) specifically state that ongoing damage does not affect conjurations.

The immunity to area of effect spells do improve Shadow Ally a bit, but in my thinking not very much.  My experience is that fights break down into two main categories: ones with minions or other mooks who can be used to dissipate the shadow ally, or fights with relatively few creatures where the likelihood is relatively high they will have multi-target melee or ranged attacks.  And that latter case is really harmful for Shadow Ally, as it both prevents you from getting the defensive bonus and ends the power.
 
On the other hand, I suppose, Shadow Ally does have the benefit of always harmlessly negating one attack.  If it was an encounter power where the ally lasted EoNT I'd probably rate it blue.  Does anyone have play experience with Shadow Ally?  I think it would be a good thing to hear how it plays out.

Ok......... So call me a noob if you must, but I very much so want the Feat Resilient Demand how ever I need a "battle resilience power" feat before I can obtain it. So my question is, what is a battle resilience power feat

Thanks

The Battle Reslience power. It's one of yor 4 choices for th Battlemind Class feature with Persistant Harrier, Speed of Thought, and Wild Focus.

The Polearm Master PP essentially gives the Fighter's mark punishment (with boosted range) as its L16 feature. Given how bad Mind Spike is, and the stickiness gained from punishing shifts, I'd consider PM a pretty strong choice. Couple with Forceful Reversal for added fun.

Feb 25, 2012 -- 2:02AM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

The Polearm Master PP essentially gives the Fighter's mark punishment (with boosted range) as its L16 feature. Given how bad Mind Spike is, and the stickiness gained from punishing shifts, I'd consider PM a pretty strong choice. Couple with Forceful Reversal for added fun.

It's at quite an opportunity cost, though - you lose 2 Power Points, have two Strength-based powers you have to contend with, and must invest heavily in MBA and OA support. You also have to use a weapon that would deny you a shield bonus without further investment. Not a bad choice, but requires a bit too much setup for a Battlemind to excel with.

Definitely improves if you're a STR/CON character using WIS as a secondary, which is certainly feasible.

Yeah, I wouldn't call it a universal sky blue or anything...but if you're building in that direction already (half-elf taking an MBA at-will is a good choice anyway) then there's not much to beat it. It's about as good as Lightning Rush, without the power point drainage, so losing out on 2 PPs isn't as bad as it seems (those PPs would go straight into LR on many builds anyway).

There any way for a Battlemind to react to teleports? Only level 8, but we fought an enemy with an encounter teleport that he used to get away from me and felt kinda bad I couldn't chase after him.

Feb 25, 2012 -- 2:49PM, EnglishLanguage wrote:

There any way for a Battlemind to react to teleports? Only level 8, but we fought an enemy with an encounter teleport that he used to get away from me and felt kinda bad I couldn't chase after him.

Not particularly.  To be fair, teleports are the bane of pretty much every Defender's existence, though Battleminds and Wardens are the easiest at defending from range with their own At-Will immediates (Warden's Grasp / Lightning Rush).

Battleminds are great at preventing teleports, however - Lodestone Lure in particular disallows enemies from teleportnig/moving/anything to squares not adjacent to you, so smack a teleporter with that and you should be fine for the round.  Feystrike weapons work well also.

Ah, musta mssed that part. Will have to look at that.

I've been looking at MC'ing Psion and I actually think it is a pretty solid choice in some ways. Namely:
The usual. Predictive Defense for the +2 to all defenses against melee attacks.

The unusual. Dreamwalker. What Dreamwalker gives you in particular is what happens when Lightning Rush goes off. You summon up your Dreamform next to the creature who triggered Lightning Rush, you don't leave your mark and don't provoke OAs, your Dreamform smacks them, and get this - they have to attack someone who is quite likely 3-5 squares away from them.

With most melee attackers, this is basically a lost round for them. What's more, if someone doesn't actually try to kill your Dreamform, you can use Lightning Rush from that location, too, potentially making the range easily 8-10 squares away.

This is also ignoring the general purpose uses of simply hitting someone with Battlemind powers who you're not actually adjacent to, such as targets with Lodestone Lure who are 10 away from you and perhaps very unhappy to be unable to move adjacent to you and therefore unable to move at all.

Thoughts? Seems quite powerful.

Feb 25, 2012 -- 3:43PM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

The unusual. Dreamwalker. What Dreamwalker gives you in particular is what happens when Lightning Rush goes off. You summon up your Dreamform next to the creature who triggered Lightning Rush, you don't leave your mark and don't provoke OAs, your Dreamform smacks them, and get this - they have to attack someone who is quite likely 3-5 squares away from them.

Thoughts? Seems quite powerful.

That's where it goes wrong. LR requires you to move your speed to a square adjacent to the triggering enemy. 

Without that, the PP is pretty useless since you can't use the powers (INT-based implement attacks). 

Feb 27, 2012 -- 5:36AM, svendj wrote:

Feb 25, 2012 -- 3:43PM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

The unusual. Dreamwalker. What Dreamwalker gives you in particular is what happens when Lightning Rush goes off. You summon up your Dreamform next to the creature who triggered Lightning Rush, you don't leave your mark and don't provoke OAs, your Dreamform smacks them, and get this - they have to attack someone who is quite likely 3-5 squares away from them.

Thoughts? Seems quite powerful.

That's where it goes wrong. LR requires you to move your speed to a square adjacent to the triggering enemy. 

Without that, the PP is pretty useless since you can't use the powers (INT-based implement attacks). 

Lightning Rush does not say you must move. If you move, you move adjacent. Most of the time, that's a requirement for Lightning Rush because the attack is a melee 1 power. But in this case, your Dreamform is right next to the target.

It isn't useless regardless. It means any time you spend power points, you can automatically use that power at a range of close burst 10. You're next to your mark and doing damage to your focus fire target. Lodestone Lure as an example.

Feb 27, 2012 -- 9:12AM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Lightning Rush does not say you must move. If you move, you move adjacent. Most of the time, that's a requirement for Lightning Rush because the attack is a melee 1 power. But in this case, your Dreamform is right next to the target.

It isn't useless regardless. It means any time you spend power points, you can automatically use that power at a range of close burst 10. You're next to your mark and doing damage to your focus fire target. Lodestone Lure as an example.

Trigger: An enemy within 5 squares of you targets an ally with an attack

Effect: Before the attack, you move your speed to a square adjacent to the triggering enemy.

Not trying to be deliberately disagreeable here, but the wording is pretty clear in that the power has the effect that you move. Saying you can ignore this effect is like saying that Wizards don't have to damage and daze all targets in their area bursts, for example.

But Dreamwalker is a good PP for defenders, I'll give you that. Combining your dreamform with lockdown powers like LL is pretty nice. Still, the fact that you can't use the encounter or daily power effectively does hold it back.

Feb 27, 2012 -- 9:12AM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Lightning Rush does not say you must move. If you move, you move adjacent. Most of the time, that's a requirement for Lightning Rush because the attack is a melee 1 power. But in this case, your Dreamform is right next to the target.

Your Dreamform might be... but you're not. You are not considered as occupying your Dreamform's square, and thus you need to satisfy the condition of Lightning Rush (moving to a square adjacent to the triggering target) before you can do anything.

You could just leave your dreamform next to whomever you were defending instead.

Feb 27, 2012 -- 10:56AM, svendj wrote:

Feb 27, 2012 -- 9:12AM, Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:

Lightning Rush does not say you must move. If you move, you move adjacent. Most of the time, that's a requirement for Lightning Rush because the attack is a melee 1 power. But in this case, your Dreamform is right next to the target.

It isn't useless regardless. It means any time you spend power points, you can automatically use that power at a range of close burst 10. You're next to your mark and doing damage to your focus fire target. Lodestone Lure as an example.

Trigger: An enemy within 5 squares of you targets an ally with an attack

Effect: Before the attack, you move your speed to a square adjacent to the triggering enemy.

Not trying to be deliberately disagreeable here, but the wording is pretty clear in that the power has the effect that you move. Saying you can ignore this effect is like saying that Wizards don't have to damage and daze all targets in their area bursts, for example.

But Dreamwalker is a good PP for defenders, I'll give you that. Combining your dreamform with lockdown powers like LL is pretty nice. Still, the fact that you can't use the encounter or daily power effectively does hold it back.

This has never stopped the Kensei PP, and it won't stop a Dreamwalker considering it actually gives you an encounter power in the form of the 2 PP. So really, you're just down a daily, which is easy to deal with.

Feb 27, 2012 -- 11:43AM, Todd wrote:

You could just leave your dreamform next to whomever you were defending instead.

But what good does that do? Mind Spike, Blurred Step and Forceful Reversal don't trigger when enemies attack or shift away from your dreamform.

The Swordmage power Glamor Blade works better in this instance, however. The way I read it, all the Battlemind goodies trigger from the duplicate.

I'm looking for the Brutal Barrage optimization section, anyone know where I can find it.

I've been thinking a little bit too much about flying defenders lately, but I've noticed something interesting for Battleminds: if you use Lodestone Lure while hovering 2 squares above the enemy, your target is practically immobilized unless it can also fly. And wouldn't you know, the Battlemind has a paragon path in Storm Disciple that provides him with a way to stay afloat every encounter until he gets hit. The path is rated purple, but I think you should make a short mention of this interaction.

As for build suggestions, a Halfling (for the reroll) with Lodestone Lure, Lightning Rush (as your off-action while you're flying), Windlord theme (for the level 10 utility and boost to flight speed) and high defenses seems like it would be a blast to play.

I hope this isn't considered too self-promoting, but...I think my Battlemind|Paladin turned out pretty well, if you wanted to link to it.

I'm quite new to the DND 4.0 scene, but isn't a flail with flail expertise and an at-will power that slides quite worth investing in? Maybe someone can help me out with this. A permanent knockdown looks nice for stickiness.

It is far far more than just that.  Say you have an at will that slides and you take flail expertise.  Now that power can prone that target instead of sliding.  Take MC Fighter and then take dragging flail.  Your power that slides, now prones, and dragging flail allows you to slide the target 1 when you prone.  Take a staggering flail, say +2 staggering flail, now your at will that slides, now prones, now slides 3(1 from dragging flail, 2 from staggering flail).

So you can knock down any creature, make flying creatures within reach land, and position them where you want.  If you get lashing flail, then if they provoke an OA and you hit, you can slide the target 3 or prone the target, slide the target 3.  I do this with a character I play now which drives a DM crazy.  There are lots of flails that have anywhere from 1d8, +2, off-hand to 2d4, +3, reach that with a feat you can treat as double light blades.

Wow thank you! ^^ I'm going to take a look at my battlemind and see if I can implement this stuff. I found a weapon from the dark sun campaign, that has the same properties as a Longsword, but is a flail. It's called an Alhulak, which you prolly already know ^^

Flails
-Alhulak: 1d8, +3
-Calhulak: 1d8, +2, Reach, Heavy Thrown, Range 3/6, Superior
-Scourge: 1d8, +2, Off-Hand
-Spike Chain: 2d4, +3, Reach, with Spike Chain Training you also consider it to be a Double Weapon Light Blade in addition to Flail, Superior
-Flail: 1d10, +2
-Triple-Headed Flail: 1d10, +3, Versatile, Superior
-Heavy Flail: 2d6, +2
-Kusari-Gama: 1d10, +2, Reach, Defensive, Stout, Double Weapon, 1d6, +2, Light Blade at the other end, Superior
-Net: 1d6, +2, Off-Hand, Heavy Thrown, Range 2/5, Superior
-Bola: 1d4, +2, Light Thrown, Range 4/8, Superior
-Double Flail: 1d8, +2, Defensive, Stout, Off-Hand, Double Weapon, Superior

Flails really came into their own with the addition of Flail Expertise.  They even have a feat that gives you +2 attack if your target is using a shield.

Edit: Forgot a few flails.  Added Superior.  Almost tempted to make a list of flails, heroic powers that can abuse them, ways to abuse slide/prone and feats/features that really allow you to abuse the mechanic but I do not think I have the skills to do it and I know that others can do it better.

^ might want to add which ones are superior weapons, and thus require the investment of a feat.

Im fairly new to D&D (My battlemind is level 7, but im this is my first campaign and still not crystal clear on optimizing things), and I have a question about the Lightning Rush battlemind at-will..

Everything Ive read basically says when I get to level 7, I need to get Lightning Rush. That it is the best thing in the world. At first read, I thought it was amazing because i was under the impression that I could use it when every enemy attacked, but, as i learned in another thread, I can only use one immediate interupt per round. So basically, Lightning Rush lets me move across the board 5 squares to attack an enemy that is attacking my ally, I will probably take AoO's during my movement, and my attack just does damage (no marks, conditions, forced movement, etc) unless I augment it, and I also lose my standard action during my next turn.

I would understand why everyone is so high on this attack if i could use it every time an enemy attacked an ally within 5 squares of me, but since i cant, i dont understand why this attack is so great. What am i missing from this?

Example:
You are just doing damage, you have a different defender.

Enemy within 5 squares is attacking the defender because the defender has the enemy marked.  You spend 2 power points, use lightning rush.  You now move to the enemy and get a 2[W]+mod+rider attack and then you become the target of the attack. 

Congradulations, you just caused the enemy to trigger mark enforcement from the defender.  The enemy takes -2 to hit you and can be hit by the defender's mark enforcement such as a warrior's combat challenge, a swordmage's aegis of assault, etc.  You just got an off-turn 2[W] attack and made the enemy take mark enforcement meaning there is a chance that the tank got an off-turn attack. 

Off-turn attacks are very good things.

Under Themes, Windlord should probably be mentioned, though black. The Encounter Power has flight baked in, which can give you the extra movement to replace a charge with an attack using your primary stat/help mitigate the melee basic problem, but not the main reason to take it. The boosts to Perception and Athletics are also nice as they're skills based on secondary/tertiary stats. The Utility 2 helps improve stickiness though making difficult terrain in a burst 2.


Again, not great, but gives another option early to increase stickiness and a potential basic attack "substitution".  

Sadly... none of us have heard from Dedekine in months. Unless this guide is replaced, I doubt it will be updated. (Pity really, he's a very interesting person.)

What sort of Battlemind build is good for a Tiefling? Can one be made to wield a Polearm reasonably well? I'm trying to make a Battlemind for an all-Tiefling party but I'm not sure where to go with it.

I wouldn't go with a polearm build; the stats don't line up well, and Mind Spike wants you to be adjacent, and you're very mobile, so polearms don't line up especially well. What's your goal? If you want to be the primary defender, then I'd recommend being a hybrid (probably with paladin).

For weapon choice, it matters what at-will you plan on spamming (since that's pretty much how psionic classes work). If you're going Intellect Snap, for example, then a mace + Dizzying Mace is awesome. If you're damage-focused (Brutal Barrage), then a heavy blade gives you all the pieces you want. My default choice would probably be a flail, for the +3 prof and some really good control support (flail expertise and dragging flail are both useful on the right build).

Being a tiefling doesn't really matter too much, because they don't have any particular weapon-specific tricks that I can think of, nor do they lock you into any particular play style.

EDIT: Worth mentioning HBO for heavy blades, too. The stat prereq sucks bad, but there are some neat tricks that can be done with it.

Mar 5, 2013 -- 8:03PM, ThatWasTotallyNinja wrote:

I wouldn't go with a polearm build; the stats don't line up well, and Mind Spike wants you to be adjacent, and you're very mobile, so polearms don't line up especially well. What's your goal? If you want to be the primary defender, then I'd recommend being a hybrid (probably with paladin).

Past level 7, Lightning Rush is your primary defender mechanic.

Being a tiefling doesn't really matter too much, because they don't have any particular weapon-specific tricks that I can think of, nor do they lock you into any particular play style.

Here's a thought for a tiefling:

Infernal Prince theme MC Monk/Soaring Blade (fire at F16) + Hellfire Blood + Firewind Blade has some game for a Brutal Barrage spammer.

I'll have to play around with it a bit, not sure how I'm going to go with it.

I feel like going full blade (which is by far my favorite weapon for the at will opportunities) is really hurting defenses, at level 16 I'm at 32 30 25 31 with imp def, superior reflex and superior will. A shield would give +2 ac, and +2 to will and fortitude with the correct feats. Is the at will retaliate worth the defenses lost?

Other then that, the flavor of the class is off the charts, teleporting to enemies that hit me, rushing to enemies 5 squares away, the "oh you hit my ally with a crit 4d12+20? Go ahead and remove those hit points from your self too" opportunity attack and much much else.

Mindspike is the worse punishment of any defender. Even the cavalier's punishment happens more than once/tier.

It'll proc a bunch 1-6

Apr 23, 2013 -- 6:56AM, Fardiz wrote:

Mindspike is the worse punishment of any defender. Even the cavalier's punishment happens more than once/tier.

Mind Spike triggers more often if your allies provoke OAs.  Or doesn't trigger, and your allies get away OA-free.  Both are nice.

Trading PCHP for Monster HP at 1:1 is a bad trade for the PC.

It works really well when your DM ups defenses by 4-8

I'm not sure... depending on PC opt level and so on...

PC HP is nominally small.  PCs have Con+12+level*5 or so HP, monsters have Con+12+level*8 hp. (and easier access to a 13 Con, and auto-scaling of Con)

But the expectation is you'll spend about 1-2 surges a combat (yeah, the squishy melee strikers are laughing right now.  1-2?  Ha!  More like 4-6!  But since that's obviously unsustainable across an adventuring day, I'm gonna go with 1-2.  Specifically, 1.5).  So that's effectively (1+1.5/4)*(Con+12+level*5), or around (1.4*Con + 16.5 + level*7).  So that's really rather close to monster HP.  The difference is PCs have a bad habit of losing turns due to unconsciousness... but since you know your HP at the point in time, that's also managable.

Note also that you tend to fight monsters 2-3 levels above you.

Which means that the DPR of a monster attack that auto hits is suddenly rather good. (and then you can likely afford the two surges required to make the math work)

Apr 23, 2013 -- 10:17AM, Fardiz wrote:

Trading PCHP for Monster HP at 1:1 is a bad trade for the PC.

Better than trading it for nothing because you *didn't* get to punish the monster and it got an OA.  And some strikers get a mad damage bonus for their OA shenanigans, so the mind spike damage is gravy on that.

My point was, there are situations where that triggers more often.  That's all.

I thought you meant you should deliberately trigger OAs to force punishment.

Apr 23, 2013 -- 11:04AM, Fardiz wrote:

I thought you meant you should deliberately trigger OAs to force punishment.

Not unless you're getting something from it other than "Mind Spike".

But the threat of Mind Spike, which can easily do as much damage as a Striker at-will, means that the OA can be a lose/lose in a larger way than for many other Defenders.  And sometimes people *want* to trigger OAs, or need to.  Or are more willing to take it because the Mind Spike is bigger than most other punishments.  Or even just appreciate the extra damage more.

Point is:  Am playing a Battlemind right now.  Am finding that Mind Spike is, actually, hard to trigger, and I'm okay with that.  When it goes off, it's generally impressive, and the THREAT of it opens up some additional options. 

I am doing the Lair Assault this weekend, and decided to go Defender since I'd never played one before.

The rules are you start at level 10, everything is legal, you get one Level 11 magic item, Level 10 magic item, Level 9 magic item and 4200 gp. No more than 2 Level 10 or lower consumables, and you can take worse stuff if you want.
 
From what I read, it seems to be one single, drawn-out, encounter.

I went with this:


====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
Warren, level 10 Revenant, Battlemind
Psionic Study Option: Persistent Harrier
Choose your Race in Life: Dwarf
Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much (Arcane Student Who Saw Too Much Benefit)
Theme: Werebear  

FINAL ABILITY SCORES
STR 10,
CON 22,
DEX 15,
INT 8,
WIS 15,
CHA 10  

STARTING ABILITY SCORES
STR 10,
CON 18,
DEX 13,
INT 8,
WIS 13,
CHA 10    

AC: 27
Fort: 23
Ref: 19
Will: 23

HP: 91 Surges: 15 Surge Value: 22  

TRAINED SKILLS Endurance +18, Heal +12, Insight +12, Intimidate +12  
UNTRAINED SKILLS Acrobatics +7, Arcana +4, Athletics +5, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +7, History +4, Nature +7, Perception +7, Religion +4, Stealth +7, Streetwise +5, Thievery +7  

POWERS
Basic Attack: Melee Basic Attack
Basic Attack: Ranged Basic Attack
Werebear Utility: Bear Shape
Revenant Utility: Dark Reaping
Battlemind Feature: Battlemind's Demand
Battlemind Feature: Blurred Step
Battlemind Feature: Mind Spike
Battlemind Feature: Persistent Harrier
Battlemind Attack 1: Conductive Defense
Battlemind Attack 1: Living Fortress
Heal Utility 2: Iron Resurgence
Battlemind Attack 3: Lodestone Lure
Battlemind Attack 5: Beckoning Strike
Battlemind Utility 6: Psionic Ambush
Battlemind Attack 7: Lightning Rush
Battlemind Attack 9: Shattered Time
Battlemind Utility 10: Battle Aspect  

FEATS
Level 1: Dwarven Weapon Training
Level  2: Wrathful Warrior
Level 4: Mark of Storm
Level 6: Harrying Step
Level 8: Superior Will
Level 10: Polearm Momentum  

ITEMS
Lightning Halberd +2 x1
Rushing Cleats x1
Magic Wyvernscale Armor +3 x1
Iron Armbands of Power (heroic tier) x1
Amulet of Protection +2 x1
Tempest Whetstone (heroic tier)
Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds

====== End ======





Some logic that went into my choices:


1. I took Werebear because I was feat-starved and wanted a decent MBA. Since it is a single encounter, and the level 10 feature means I get all benefits and no drawbacks, I can spend my first turn on a move, Battle Aspect and Living Fortress, followed up by next turn morphing into bear shape. At that point I will have effectively +3 AC, +3 Fortitude, +2 Reflex, +2 Will, Resist 5 all and Teleport 3 for the enitre lair assault (or until I drop), with an effective MBA that marks (+14 vs. AC, 1d8+8 damage and mark)

2. I went Revnant because they don't die easily, and with Superior Will, I can even get a full turn despite being below 0 hp (and with my background, I get a +1 to the saving throw to end the daze).
 
3. I decided to try to force the polearm momentum, which is what ate my feats. The goal is to drop into Beckoning Stance quickly, and create poor options where if my opponents shift away, I teleport next to them (Harrying Step), if they move away, I pull them back, then slide 2 and knock prone. If they attack someone else, I get an OA or Lightning Rush, which with a slde 2 and prone will end most melee attacks and at least bother many ranged attacks (especially with the OA provided by LR, followed by the mark by werebear's MBA which imposes another -2).

4. I went with Tempest Whetstone because I think there will be minions about, and the whetstone can let me quickly dispatch them.             

Eh, polearm Momentum is a tremendous waste there. Why not just use a flail?

It's too floppy and limp?

Why would I use a flail instead? My thinking was Reach 2, and +2 damage from DWT, as well as knocking guys prone. I haven't looked at flails at all

Polearm is dropping your AC/Ref because of no shield, and making you put points into Dex which does you little good overall, you're also less accurate compared to the Alhulak which = less damage. Of course, with DWT you could be using a Gouge or Spear ... no idea why you'd pick Halberd. Revenant also makes little sense to me, why wouldn't you want the minor action 2nd wind as a defender? Planning on needing the undying is just planning on failing.

Advantages of flail:
You don't need to spread your ability scores, you can focus on a primary and secondary.
You don't need to have slide 2.
You don't need to spend as many feats (just Flail Expertise, instead of MC + PM + an expertise feat... though fighter MC will probably happen anyway eventually).

Advantages of polearm:
You get both the slide *and* the prone. This can be countered by the flail, but requires losing the feat advantage (MC fighter + dragging flail).
You get very slightly more damage (+0.5 per [W], more on a crit) if you compare the reach weapons.

Either way, you are definitely doing one thing wrong: your past life should be Hobgoblin, and take Hobgoblin Weapon Training instead of Dwarven. Greatspear is the best thing for PM, and Spiked Chain is the best for flail expertise (if you want to keep reach; triple-headed flail + shield is honestly better though), and you get both of them with HWT (plus more damage post-heroic).

EDIT: I did forget a big advantage of PM which is that it works on pushes and on non-melee weapon attacks. I don't think either of those is likely to matter to a battlemind build, since your best powers will likely meet those criteria, but it's worth mentioning.

Thanks for these ideas. Dropping PM and DWT frees up several critical feat slots. Just sone quick points:
1. I preferred PM because it gave the slide and prone, which can negate a melee attack. But as I can choose the slide with flail expertise, it probably isn't worth the feat cost.
2. Keep in mibd this is for a lair assault, and I have no clue what everyone is playing. I value being incredibly hard to kill higher than a second wind as minor action.  

I can't believe I forgot about Hobs WT feat

May 2, 2013 -- 1:05AM, Zathris wrote:

I can't believe I forgot about Hobs WT feat

Well, it hasn't made it into any of the online resources besides the e-copy of the magazine it was published in, so that might have something to do with it.