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2 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2011 - 3:03AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Mar 11, 2006
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Agh. Tired. Better reply tomorrow. Just wanted to reply to this part atm: If they have equal importance in the story, or if the NPC is more important to the story than the PC is, then what are the players there for?
This continually rings of some sort of false equivalence to me, that "equal stats" or "equal rules" equates to "equal importance" to the story. I'm curious as to the logic and the set of premises that leads to that conclusion.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2011 - 3:07AM
#32
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Date Joined:
May 13, 2009
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Or, a better question, two farmboys join the militia and recieve equal training, and are the only survivors when they are ambushed by monsters. One becomes a PC. One becomes an NPC. Why are they different?
Think back to high school. You all received the same basic training. How many of those people were your clones? How many were different, simply because they were different people?
Now imagine the story being told from the viewpoint of the most capable person in your school, with everyone else in that school being less capable, either to the point of "close, but no cigar" or "not even in the same league" level, and it shouldn't be hard to understand why others have less capabilities, sometimes surprisingly much so, even when they come from the same school.
As for "balance", that's one of those answers that explains the why, but isn't particularly satisfying, and invites the question of, or at least wondering, "why was it designed to be balanced like that?"
I invite any such player to read The Art of Game Design or another such book, then design a game or two of his own, and then if he still wonders why the balance is such or thinks it's being done wrong, I'll invite him over for an evening of drinks, snacks and game design discussion. But not during the game, and not if you have no clue what you're talking about.
Epic Dungeon Master Want to give your players a kingdom of their own? I made a 4e rule system to make it happen! Your Kingdom awaits!Update 5th Sep 2011: Added a sample kingdom, as well as sample of play.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2011 - 3:55AM
#33
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Date Joined:
Oct 19, 2008
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Or, a better question, two farmboys join the militia and recieve equal training, and are the only survivors when they are ambushed by monsters. One becomes a PC. One becomes an NPC. Why are they different?
Because one is Biggs, and the other is Luke ****ing Skywalker. One is destined to become great, the other is destined to become vapor over the wreckage of the first Death Star, galvanizing Luke into action.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition.Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotes
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You have to do the work first, and show you can do the work, before someone is going to pay you for it.
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
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2 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2011 - 7:36AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Nov 10, 2009
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It's an issue of 'verisimilitude'
Actually it's the opposite of verisimilitude since stats and mechanics are an entirely meta aspect of the game. Monsters do not have to follow the same set of behind-the-screen mechanics to be verisimilar, they only need to adhere to the parameters established for monsters within the world.
What negatively impacts verisimilitude are NPCs - like some mentioned within this very thread - which are purported to be on par with the PCs yet demonstrate powers and abilities that far outstrip them.
Marty Feldman described verisimilitude well. If you've got five men on stage dressed in carrot costumes and standing on garbage cans and then a man walk in dressed in a business suit you'd better have a damned good explanation for why that man isn't wearing a carrot costume and standing in a garbage can.
Advice for DMs: When you are ad lib or improve DMing don't self-edit yourself. Some of the most fun you'll ever have is by just going with whatever crazy thing crosses your mind based on what your players are doing. Advice for Players: When your DM is ad libbing there are bound to be plot holes and inconsistencies that crop up. You'll all have a lot more fun if you just roll with it instead of nitpicking the details. Previous Advice
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Advice for DMs:
Always dangle a lot of plot hooks in front of you players. Anything they do not bite you can bring back and bite them later.
When considering a new house rule ask yourself the question "Will this make the game more fun?" Unless the answer is a resounding yes don't do it.
Advice for Players:
Always tell the DM not just what you want to do but also what you are hoping to accomplish. No matter how logical the result is it will never happen if it simply never occurred to the DM.
"That's what my character would do" is not a valid excuse for being a disruptive ass at the table. Your right to have fun only extends to the point where it impedes the ability of others to do likewise.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2011 - 7:36AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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In answer to the original question:
I have only had a player question the difference between PCs and monsters/NPCs once. It was the very first time my friend played 4E, and the party was fighting kobolds. When the first kobold shifted as a minor action, he thought I was cheating. I said that it was a power kobolds get. He said, "Oh, ok". And that was that.
The bottom line here is that if your players dislike NPCs and monster being different in terms of mechanics, then make them the same. You can make every NPC using full PC rules, you can alter monster HP to make it the same as the PCs, and you can give monsters PC powers.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2011 - 8:41AM
#36
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It is important to remember that in 4E the game mechanics (and that includes damage and defences) are all relative to the PCs. They change even when the PCs become more powerful, for example think how a young dragon would be a level 4 solo when facing level 4 PCs, a level 8 elite when facing 8th level PCs, a level 12 regular monster when facing level 12 PCs and a level 20 minion when facing level 21 PCs. The fact is that level for a monster means something different than level does for a PC (it is much more comparable to the CR of 3E).
It is a different philosophical approach to a game like 3E where the mechanics for both monsters and PCs are relative to the same point 0. It means that 4E monster function well when monsters are facing PCs, but they can fail if monsters face monsters. Normally that is not a big problem, since under most circumstances you do not spend much time on monster vs. monster battles, but if a NPC that is supposed to be on par with the PCs travels for a long time with the PCs you need to modify their stats.
Personally I have never players wonder about the abilities of monsters. It is not as if in RL people are the same, let alone that a human can do the same as a cat. Besides, my players are well aware of the relativity behind the game mechanics. When they even think about a monster as level 8 ranger (and they rarely take such a meta-game approach to a fight), they think that five of those would be a appropriate challenge to 5 8th level PCs, never as that 8th level ranger IS the same as an 8th level PC.
Note btw as Pluisjen pointed out, the NPCs can very much follow the same mounted combat rules as the PCs. I have done so when I wanted the mounts to have the same indirect role (bag of hit points that does not act independendly of the rider) in a fight as the intent is of those rules for the PCs. If I run them as fully independend creatures I will give the PCs xp as if they are independend creatures. This is a decision of the DM and has nothing to do with the mechanics. The mechanics allow mounts to be independend creatures on the side of the PCs as well in which case you would not be following the mount rules either.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2011 - 12:04PM
#37
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Date Joined:
Mar 11, 2006
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Or, a better question, two farmboys join the militia and recieve equal training, and are the only survivors when they are ambushed by monsters. One becomes a PC. One becomes an NPC. Why are they different?
Because one is Biggs, and the other is Luke ****ing Skywalker. One is destined to become great, the other is destined to become vapor over the wreckage of the first Death Star, galvanizing Luke into action.
Actually, the differences between Biggs and Luke can be explained by class choice (since Luke multiclassed into Jedi and recieved all the attendent hax), by background choice (instruction by Obi-Wan) and by level (by that time he was certainly a few levels higher than Biggs). If the DM had let Biggs' also multiclasss into Jedi and gave him a few more levels he likely would have survived, too. :P
Personally I have never players wonder about the abilities of monsters. It is not as if in RL people are the same, let alone that a human can do the same as a cat.
No, but it is generally that the differences in people are better explained by differences in class, level, and stats, modified by background, instead of a magic switch thrown between "PC" and "NPC", and it comes from emerging from being an NPC and rising up to do awesome things that makes PCs more interesting than being born a PC. These differences are outcomes of unified mechanics.
But remember, kids! Being defined as a hero by your equipment instead of your actions is bad! Being defined as a hero by other game mechanics that are not unqiue to you and that anyone could take or have, which also make things easier for you, is not at all the same, and is perfectly fine! Somehow.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2011 - 12:40PM
#38
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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But remember, kids! Being defined as a hero by your equipment instead of your actions is bad! Being defined as a hero by other game mechanics that are not unqiue to you and that anyone could take or have, which also make things easier for you, is not at all the same, and is perfectly fine! Somehow.
 Thanks for the laugh. That was very nicely done.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2011 - 1:02PM
#39
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2002
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No, but it is generally that the differences in people are better explained by differences in class, level, and stats, modified by background, instead of a magic switch thrown between "PC" and "NPC", and it comes from emerging from being an NPC and rising up to do awesome things that makes PCs more interesting than being born a PC. These differences are outcomes of unified mechanics.
Better for you. I've enjoyed many more years of D&D where the characters follow a different set of rules than the PCs. To each their own.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 15, 2011 - 1:04PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2002
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No, but it is generally that the differences in people are better explained by differences in class, level, and stats, modified by background, instead of a magic switch thrown between "PC" and "NPC", and it comes from emerging from being an NPC and rising up to do awesome things that makes PCs more interesting than being born a PC. These differences are outcomes of unified mechanics.
Better for you. I've enjoyed many more years of D&D where the characters follow a different set of rules than the PCs. To each their own.
To clarify: I find explaining differences by class, level, and stats, modified by background fun when I'm focusing on a single character (i.e. I am a player). I do not find this fun when I am in charge of populating the rest of the entire world.
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