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2 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2011 - 3:48AM
#1
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Date Joined:
Feb 13, 2011
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I've picked up the Gamma World boxed set and the Far-go expansions and I'm getting ready to run a campaign for my 13 year old daughter and some of her school friends. But I'm having some 'issues' with the ammo rule specifically and wanted to get some feedback from the lot of you.
I haven't played since 2nd edition and find the ammo rule for GW to be dumbed down a little. Is this a typical rule for all 4th edition D&D games or is it specific to Gamma World? Do rangers keep track of how many arrows they have or is it simply a matter of 'fire once: you're good; fire more than once and you're out'?
Does it seem a little strange that the beginner's explorer's kit comes with 10 days worth of field rations? So keeping track of food and/or water is alright but keeping track of ammo would be, what, too much to deal with?
How many of you use the ammo/no ammo rule as listed and how many of you have declared a house rule that tracks ammo?
I'm thinking about running with the 4th ed rule and seeing if it feels ok. I can always track ammo later if this feels too dumb.
I guess I can see why they made this rule, especially if it's just for GW. After all, the characters are all bad-ass mutants. The game makers want them using their powers, not hanging back and trying to kill everything with guns.
Thanks in advance for your input.
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2 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2011 - 6:24AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2001
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I haven't played since 2nd edition and find the ammo rule for GW to be dumbed down a little. Is this a typical rule for all 4th edition D&D games or is it specific to Gamma World?
The micromanagement issues of Gamma World (and indeed all of 4e D&D) have indeed been minimized, removed, or dumbed down (depending on your perspective). 4e decided to focus on the heroism rather than the accounting skills of the heroes.
Your heroes run out of ammunition only when the GM/DM decides the story needs it to. Similarly, although the adventurer's kit says you start with 10 days rations, there are no rules for managing rations beyond the kit. Unless the GM/DM decides the heroes *need* to get hungry, it is safe to assume that the heroes are finding access to food.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion: - Three Basic Rules (p 11)
- Power Types and Usage (p 54)
- Skills (p178-179)
- Feats (p 192)
- Rest and Recovery (p 263)
- All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
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2 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2011 - 7:40AM
#3
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Abstracted. Abstracted is the word. D&D has always been inconsistent with its level of abstraction (see also: abstract spell slots v. simulationist spell component tracking). 4e was designed with a specific level of baseline abstraction in mind, and Gamma World took that to a whole new level.
Really it's less about complication, though, and more about creating options with a framework of pros and cons. Guns are more accurate and powerful than standard ranged weapons, with a delimiter: fire 1/encounter, or be temporarily unable to use it. (To be fair, this is not a 4e rule. You can do all the ammo counting you want in traditional D&D 4e, but after a certain point it becomes either irrelevant - via magic items or effects - or just annoying.)
As Seeker says, it's designed for a heroic or cinematic feel: characters in fiction run out of ammo when the needs of the story call for it, and never for any other reason.
EDIT: Oh, to actually answer your question: yes, lots of people on the forums have proposed house-ruled ammo. Either letting the "has ammo" condition stack (basically, you expend an "ammo counter" anytime you use your gun more than once during an encounter, and gain one anytime you "find ammo") or by doing actual ammo counting. I don't recommend the later, though, as it really defeats the creative purpose of Gamma World's non-specific weapons and the abstraction inherent in powers. FWIW, I've always seen it played by the book, and it works out great.
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2 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2011 - 9:13AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Jun 15, 2004
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Is this a typical rule for all 4th edition D&D games or is it specific to Gamma World?
The gun ammo rule is specific Gamma World
Do rangers keep track of how many arrows they have
Theoretically: yes. In practice: no, you almost never have to worry about running out. Note: in Gamma World you never really run out of arrows either; just gun ammo.
Does it seem a little strange that the beginner's explorer's kit comes with 10 days worth of field rations?
That detail doesn't neccesarily mean that all rations should be tracked... it's just useful information for role-playing purposes (i.e. it means that if you are unable to resupply for some reason, you'll likely be out of food after 10 ten days)
How many of you use the ammo/no ammo rule
It's been in effect in every game I've attended.
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2 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2011 - 9:31AM
#5
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2011
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I actually like the once per encounter gun rule. It makes my gun feel special and, let's be honest, this game isn't really about the guns. Also consider there are no reload rules for guns in 4e(well, at least none that I'm aware of). One shot per encounter prevents the need for them, and I like it that way.
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2 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2011 - 1:50PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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I have been thinking about this for a while now.
I see that we have Overcharge checks and Omega Charge checks to see if things work, but not an Ammo Check.
I think I'm going to houserule that at the end of an encounter, you roll a d20 to see if you have ammo remaining. If you've found ammo during the encounter, you receive a +5 to your roll. DC is 10.
How's that for a compromise?
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2 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2011 - 8:49PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Jan 17, 2011
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I have been thinking about this for a while now.
I see that we have Overcharge checks and Omega Charge checks to see if things work, but not an Ammo Check.
I think I'm going to houserule that at the end of an encounter, you roll a d20 to see if you have ammo remaining. If you've found ammo during the encounter, you receive a +5 to your roll. DC is 10.
How's that for a compromise?
I was thinking about doing something similar. Mind you I'm new to 4e rules so maybe my ideas are a bit wacky but I was thinking about making the check more and more difficult depending upon how many times the gun is fired. These numbers aren't set in stone but as an example if you fired your gun only once then normal rules would apply. If you decided to fire it twice then you'd do an ammo check by rolling a D20. A roll of 10 or above would mean you succeeded. If you fired the weapon 3 times then the difficulty would ramp up. Maybe it would require a 14 or more? 4 times would require a 18 or more?
Something like that. It would still keep the rules slightly abstract while giving the player the choice of firing more than once at the risk of running out of ammo.
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2 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2011 - 8:55PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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I have been thinking about this for a while now.
I see that we have Overcharge checks and Omega Charge checks to see if things work, but not an Ammo Check.
I think I'm going to houserule that at the end of an encounter, you roll a d20 to see if you have ammo remaining. If you've found ammo during the encounter, you receive a +5 to your roll. DC is 10.
How's that for a compromise?
I was thinking about doing something similar. Mind you I'm new to 4e rules so maybe my ideas are a bit wacky but I was thinking about making the check more and more difficult depending upon how many times the gun is fired. These numbers aren't set in stone but as an example if you fired your gun only once then normal rules would apply. If you decided to fire it twice then you'd do an ammo check by rolling a D20. A roll of 10 or above would mean you succeeded. If you fired the weapon 3 times then the difficulty would ramp up. Maybe it would require a 14 or more? 4 times would require a 18 or more?
Something like that. It would still keep the rules slightly abstract while giving the player the choice of firing more than once at the risk of running out of ammo.
I thought about adding +1 to the DC for every shot after the second. So if you fire once, you don't have to roll. If you fire twice, you roll a d20 against a DC 10. If you fire three times, it's DC 11. 4 Times increases to DC 12, 6 = DC 14,..., 10 = DC 18. A lot of guns have a limit of 10-12 rounds in their clips so at 12 shots with a DC of 20 would be semi-believable.
Since we're talking about abstract ammo rules to begin with, you could consider weapons that have multiple dice for damage as being more powerful or firing multiple bullets (bursts). That's up to you to interpret.
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2 years ago ::
Feb 17, 2011 - 10:52PM
#9
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At that point, you've pretty much gotten to fire gun every round without much of a penalty. It should bump up by 4 or 5 with each shot past the first or you really haven't limited the weapon much.
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2 years ago ::
Feb 18, 2011 - 5:55AM
#10
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Date Joined:
Oct 24, 2001
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[...]but not an Ammo Check.
[...]roll a d20 to see if you have ammo remaining.
I think it would counter the objective I perceive in the current rule.
Guns are better than non-guns. Better range, better accuracy, and sometimes better damage. They are the best weapon to use from range. Players (via their PCs) *want* to use a gun as often as possible. The only thing that keeps that in check is that using it more than once in an encounter requires that they find more ammunition. Using it only once guarantees that they can use the gun again next encounter.
The proposed house rule, however, removes any link between player decisions and ammo availability. The smart thing is to use the gun as often as you can in an encounter, because the chance of having ammo left over is based on a die roll, and is independent of how much you used in the fight.
I like the current ammo rules for this reason.
Here are the PHB essentia, in my opinion: - Three Basic Rules (p 11)
- Power Types and Usage (p 54)
- Skills (p178-179)
- Feats (p 192)
- Rest and Recovery (p 263)
- All of Chapter 9 [Combat] (p 264-295)
A player needs to read the sections for building his or her character -- race, class, powers, feats, equipment, etc. But those are PC-specific. The above list is for everyone, regardless of the race or class or build or concept they are playing.
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