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 Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Optim.. Expanded Crit range, what it's really worth
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 2 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2011 - 10:49AM #11 thespaceinvader Date Joined: Oct 28, 2010 Posts: 9,662 Pure maths, WF probably wins.  But you can;t beat critting on a 19 or 18 for sheer satisfaction. Harrying your Prey, the Easy Way: A Hunter's Handbook - the first of what will hopefully be many CharOp efforts on my part.The Blinker - teleport everywhere. An Eladrin Knight/Eldritch Knight.CB != rules source. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 2 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2011 - 11:07AM #12 Mand12 Date Joined: Jun 17, 2010 Posts: 17,045 Firstly, I disagree with your premise.  You clearly state the assumption for your theory is that you're looking only at the effects of damage, but the most powerful and important things that are improved by expanded critical ranges aren't mere damage.I don't think you can possibly break it down to a simple comparison to weapon focus and have it be meaningful advice to give as part of character design.  I mean, if you have anything at all that happens on crits, expanded crit range is one of the best things you can get because the power budget for those effects assume 5% of rolls.That said, it's still a useful calculation to be incorporated as one component into a larger theory of the effects of expanded criticals.  As far as the actual math, I'm assuming you're performing these calculations at epic, with +3 for weapon focus?  If that's the case, then consider the amount of damage typical powers are actually using.  Let's take your d6 table and compare to, say, a barbarian using a 2d6 weapon:21 (6d6)         1.8           .628 (8d6)         2.05         .6835 (10d6)       2.3           .7742 (12d6)       2.55         .85 Howling Strike lands in at 7d6 at epic, putting your expected hit rate at (interpolating here) .64.  65% hit rate is what is typically assumed for CharOp calculations, is it not?  So it's basically dead even here on the typical well-built character.But that's only for an at-will power.  When looking at encounters and dailies, crit becomes better because E and D use more dice.  Berserker's Shout, as an example, is E23 and does 5[W], bumping the dice for the attack up to 10d6.  Now you're at 77% hit rate for WF to become better, but that's a +2 over what is typically assumed.  For a typical well-built character, crit is better than WF for the encounter power.  E27s have even higher dice counts - Butcher's Feast is up to 12d6, and an 85% hit rate.Dailies are even more significant, but I think you get the idea.  You should at least state what "total noob" "moderate optimization" and "max to hit" hit rates are, and what thresholds of damage you should be looking for to help decide between the two feats.  The specific powers in question are important - if you're going for max damage from each power you take, then crit becomes more important.  If you're going for more status effects that eat up power budget, then WF might be more efficient.One minor note is that "benefit 2" of expanded crit isn't relevant - the damage you get from increased critical range isn't affected by your static mod but neither is weapon focus. D&D Next = D&D:  Quantum Edition Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 2 years ago  ::  Feb 11, 2011 - 11:47AM #13 Aurance Date Joined: Feb 1, 2008 Posts: 117 Feb 11, 2011 -- 11:07AM, Mand12 wrote:Firstly, I disagree with your premise.  You clearly state the assumption for your theory is that you're looking only at the effects of damage, but the most powerful and important things that are improved by expanded critical ranges aren't mere damage.I don't think you can possibly break it down to a simple comparison to weapon focus and have it be meaningful advice to give as part of character design.  I mean, if you have anything at all that happens on crits, expanded crit range is one of the best things you can get because the power budget for those effects assume 5% of rolls.What premise? He said the same thing you did, that he's calculating the numbers, but other effects make expanded crit more powerful.The advice is meaningful precisely because you can then assign a certain value to expanded crit range by itself, vs. it + other things. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 2 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2011 - 6:53AM #14 mellored Date Joined: Jul 8, 2008 Posts: 19,482 Someone want to add this to the Collection?I can't log in to do it for some reason.  guides Show my builds Show F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter.  With some warlord stuff.  Broken in a plot way, not a power way.Thought Switch   Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1.  If your allies play along, it's broken.Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation.  5 of these will end anything.  Broken.King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways.  Strong.Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading.Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit.  Overpowered.Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked.Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic.Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation.Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses.Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat.Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent.Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof.Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it.Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways.Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful.The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken.Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the powerPsilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly brokenUnnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered.Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5.Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong.Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken.Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones.  Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 2 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2011 - 7:05AM #15 Noctaem Date Joined: Mar 28, 2010 Posts: 1,805 last session i rolled 3 20's in a row while attacking with minions.  I had a 1 in 8000 chance to pull that off.  And I did 6 damage to the player. :'( "Non nobis DomineSed nomini tuo da gloriam""I wish for death not because I want to die, but because I seek the war eternal" Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 2 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2011 - 8:23AM #16 kilpatds Date Joined: Nov 23, 2003 Posts: 4,979 "Minions do double damage on a crit" is a not-unheard-of house rule. "Nice assumptions. Completely wrong assumptions, but by jove if being incorrect stopped people from making idiotic statements, we wouldn't have modern internet subculture." KerrusPractical gameplay runs by neither RAW or RAI, but rather "A Compromise Between The Gist Of The Rule As I Recall Getting The Impression Of It That One Time I Read It And What Jerry Says He Remembers, Whatever, We'll Look It Up Later If Any Of Us Still Give A Damn." Erachima Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 2 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2011 - 8:59AM #17 SongNSilence Date Joined: Jun 16, 2007 Posts: 1,274 Feb 11, 2011 -- 8:53AM, mellored wrote:JConclusion: Unless you have something that happens on a crit (including high crit), weapon focus > expand crit range.  So consider expanded crit range more like a multiclass feat.  It's give a ok bonus by itself, but you really take it to gain access to other stuff.Hi mellored, i find your conclusion to be somewhat misleading: it should maybe read "Unless absolutely nothing happens on a crit, weapon focus < expanded crit range". As written above, it might implicate that no effects on crits are actually common in real builds at lvl 21. (i've never seen a player that didn't at least have a lvl 13 ring of giants @21, most Strikers will get a secondary attack on a crit like barbarian rampage, two weapon opening, spellfury etc.) The table itself is also a bit problematic as a base for general conclusions, since many weapons don't have enh*d6, but enh*d8, enh*d10 or even enh*d12 on crit (and an outlier with 2*enh*d10)But most importantly, feat bonus vs expanded crit range is not a consideration at all: if your build can meet the stat prereqs for expanded crit range, you should always take both, even if the build is extremely feat starved. So in short, the math is valid, but the scope is a bit too narrow to draw a useful conclusion for general optimization choices and recommendations...Sorry for so much criticism Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 2 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2011 - 9:30AM #18 Kurald_Galain Date Joined: Aug 24, 2007 Posts: 1,628 Feb 15, 2011 -- 8:59AM, SongNSilence wrote:i find your conclusion to be somewhat misleading:I don't think it's misleading. Many people (and guides) claim that the expanded crit is the Mandatory thing that Everybody Must Take Immediately at level 21, and it turns out that mathematically, this has no basis in fact.Sure, many characters have something special happening on a crit, but conversely many others don't - and there are also certain builds that have trouble getting the necessary stats for the expanded critical feat. So these can rest easy knowing that there are other options.For example, you can spend two feats on "knocking prone on a crit" and "+5% crit chance", but this does cost you two feats which you could have spent on something else. If the latter isn't an automatic pick, then neither is the former. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 2 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2011 - 10:20AM #19 GelatinousOctahedron Date Joined: Jun 30, 2008 Posts: 5,740 I think its useful to know since if you have something like a battle cleric with a longsword or lifeblood warden with a craghammer where nothing special happens on a crit.  Expanded crit range is mandatory for strikerish builds and builds where something special happens on a crit, but for some defender and leader builds it is not mandatory and they are better off with weapon focus if they have to make a choice about what feat to take and stat allocation. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply? 2 years ago  ::  Feb 15, 2011 - 10:48AM #20 SongNSilence Date Joined: Jun 16, 2007 Posts: 1,274 Feb 15, 2011 -- 9:30AM, Kurald_Galain wrote:Feb 15, 2011 -- 8:59AM, SongNSilence wrote:i find your conclusion to be somewhat misleading:I don't think it's misleading. Many people (and guides) claim that the expanded crit is the Mandatory thing that Everybody Must Take Immediately at level 21, and it turns out that mathematically, this has no basis in fact.This is exactly what i meant with a misleading conclusion: melloreds  conclusion isn't wrong (due to his self-limitaiton to a speciifc scenario) - but what people can easily read into it, as demonstrated by your post, is wrong. Mathematcally, expanded crit range is usually one of the best feat choices in epic, which is why many people (including myself) and guides rate it very highly. Quick Reply Cancel Quote message in reply?
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 Dungeons & Dra.. 4e Character Optim.. Expanded Crit range, what it's really worth
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