People who say, "WotC is only focused on combat. We need more role playing and less combat stuff," what is it you want?
There has been role playing stuff since the PHB came out. Check out the race section, for example, and you will find each race has ideas for characters. The introductions to the classes are similarly filled with non-combat goodies. The chapter detailing with the gods and alignment and stuff also has things. Even the powers have role playing info (the fluff descriptions).
Beyond this, it is your imagination that has to do the work.
Word.
Seriously, people confuse non-combat mechanics for roleplay mechanics far too often. Combat =/= no roleplaying. Non-combat =/= no roleplaying, either. Roleplaying = roleplaying. Sounds trite and overly simplistic, but it's true.
Roleplaying isn't anything other than playing a role. Imagine a character, inhabit that character, and do what your character would do, in and out of combat. BAM! You're roleplaying.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging.
Beyond this, it is your imagination that has to do the work.
Oh, I dunno, modules with something more than a bunch of encounters and a ridiculously stupid backstory with some thin adventure hook doesn't hurt.
While I agree a lot of it comes down to the players themselves, the fact is there needs to be SOME pointing in that direction by the game, and for 4E there really isn't. For instance, a price list of drinks and mundane things like meals is pretty common in other games, in 4E it isn't there and so a lot of people don't even THINK about dedicating any play time to the inn. If ALL players see is XP tables and rules to build encounters, then guess what... everything looks like a nail.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman
Beyond this, it is your imagination that has to do the work.
Oh, I dunno, modules with something more than a bunch of encounters and a ridiculously stupid backstory with some thin adventure hook doesn't hurt.
While I agree a lot of it comes down to the players themselves, the fact is there needs to be SOME pointing in that direction by the game, and for 4E there really isn't. For instance, a price list of drinks and mundane things like meals is pretty common in other games, in 4E it isn't there and so a lot of people don't even THINK about dedicating any play time to the inn. If ALL players see is XP tables and rules to build encounters, then guess what... everything looks like a nail.
Do you really need Wizards of the Coast to make shop inventory and tavern menus? I mean, really? I did it myself. And I'm using Fallcrest. And Kobold Hall. And Keep on the Shadowfell. I just added things into the pre published works that I knew would fit with my characters. Heck, having to change the BS treasure they give out was the biggest of my problems. I'd prefer they just put in (level 2 treasure here) kind of prompts in their adventures. And at most give an idea about how bustiling and rich or meager and poor the different towns are. Anything past that would be unused, at least by me.
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )
Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotesShow
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
FFSAA, to which modules are you referring? All I really hear you saying is that you haven't liked the premade adventures. I have found them to be very well done, both when run as is and in terms of giving ideas to DMs to use in their own quests. Just because you found the backstory to be "ridiculously stupid" and the adventure hooks to be "thin" doesn't mean they are objectively so.
As for tables with random prices...I'm going to have to call shenanigans on you. Roleplaying is much much (I could go on, you get the idea) more than having a few drinks in a tavern. And honestly, if you need to consult a chart to find the price of Elven Firewine vs. Dwarven Brandy vs. Orcish Grog...you might need to grow an imagination. The game is Dungeons & Dragons, not Accountants and Merchants. Prices are whatever the plot needs them to be.
PCs walk into a bar for some drinks? Fine, tell them to spend a few copper pieces to a few silver pieces on drinks (a few gold if they want the really expensive stuff or are big tippers). Done.
The PCs find a roll of silk cloth and want to sell it? Fine, just make up a price appropriate for their level (or tell them it is negligable if they are really high level).
Roleplaying is up to the players and the DM. The DM has to give opportunities, and respond to player roleplaying. Players have to rise to the opportunity.
Edit for Kalnaur: the preset treasure bothered me too, but I think they did it to make the quest easier for brand new DMs. Everything is ready for you, you don't have to decide which items to give. In later quests (all of the Dragon Mag quests I have seen, plus the later ones in the KotS path) do what you want to see; they tell you where the items and treasure would make sense to be found, and let you decide what the items are.
Do you really need Wizards of the Coast to make shop inventory and tavern menus?
Yes. I come to a table with a stack of power cards, some dice and some books filled with little rules packets for powers and magic items. Nothing there points to role play. Lots of stuff makes combat easier to do, more interesting to do, more rewarding to do. What makes role play any of that? I look at the table in front of me and see a bunch of minatures and some power cards and guess what happens, they get used and the role-playing gets forgotten. The game has no signpost pointing in the direction of the land of roleplay.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman
Do you really need Wizards of the Coast to make shop inventory and tavern menus?
Yes. I come to a table with a stack of power cards, some dice and some books filled with little rules packets for powers and magic items. Nothing there points to role play. Lots of stuff makes combat easier to do, more interesting to do, more rewarding to do. What makes role play any of that? I look at the table in front of me and see a bunch of minatures and some power cards and guess what happens, they get used and the role-playing gets forgotten. The game has no signpost pointing in the direction of the land of roleplay.
FFSAA: what is your character's name? Background? Personality? Manerisms? Quirks? Likes? Dislikes? Goals? Which god(s) does he pray to in times of danger? How about the other PCs? And the NPCs?
What is your quest currently? What quests have you done in the past? What quests have you passed up attempting?
Where are you currently? A town? How big? The wilderness? The underdark? Another plane?
The opportunities for roleplaying have been there all along, you have just chosen to ignore them.
FFSAA, to which modules are you referring? All I really hear you saying is that you haven't liked the premade adventures. I have found them to be very well done, both when run as is and in terms of giving ideas to DMs to use in their own quests. Just because you found the backstory to be "ridiculously stupid" and the adventure hooks to be "thin" doesn't mean they are objectively so.
As for tables with random prices...I'm going to have to call shenanigans on you. Roleplaying is much much (I could go on, you get the idea) more than having a few drinks in a tavern. And honestly, if you need to consult a chart to find the price of Elven Firewine vs. Dwarven Brandy vs. Orcish Grog...you might need to grow an imagination. The game is Dungeons & Dragons, not Accountants and Merchants. Prices are whatever the plot needs them to be.
PCs walk into a bar for some drinks? Fine, tell them to spend a few copper pieces to a few silver pieces on drinks (a few gold if they want the really expensive stuff or are big tippers). Done.
The PCs find a roll of silk cloth and want to sell it? Fine, just make up a price appropriate for their level (or tell them it is negligable if they are really high level).
Roleplaying is up to the players and the DM. The DM has to give opportunities, and respond to player roleplaying. Players have to rise to the opportunity.
Edit for Kalnaur: the preset treasure bothered me too, but I think they did it to make the quest easier for brand new DMs. Everything is ready for you, you don't have to decide which items to give. In later quests (all of the Dragon Mag quests I have seen, plus the later ones in the KotS path) do what you want to see; they tell you where the items and treasure would make sense to be found, and let you decide what the items are.
The PHB, page 222 has a table, small as it is, for food, drink, stays at an inn, etc. Edit: this table aslo is on the old DM screen for 4th ed.
Draconomicon:Chromatic Dragons has ideas of how to create hoards. These also help in giving interesting items, such as rare coins (page 64), More Gems than is given in the DMG (page 65), two pages worth of tables (pages 66-67) for the creation of your own art objects, Oddities such as Prisoners, Valuable papers and the like (pages 69-71), and finally trade goods (page 71). Which tells me that Silk is 800 gp per bolt, for example. I use the book currently more for pumping out cool treasure rather than for the dragons or creatures or traps contained therin.
< pissy rant >Also, FFSAA, if you are not the DM, tell the DM you want more RP signposts, if you are the DM, it's your damned job, pal (gal?). Get cracking. Make players RP their powers, for a start. Make your own damned menus, it isn't that hard. I made the entire Nentir Vale region's menus and valuables inventory in the equivalent of a work day. It's just so damned easy. And if your DM is some lazy ass who thinks the books are going to tell him how to do every little thing, tell him this isn't old D&D where they held his wittle hand and led him on. He actually has to work to give his players a roleplaying experience now. < / pissy rant >
"I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody." --Bill Cosby (1937- )
Vanador: OK. You ripped a gateway to Hell, killed half the town, and raised the dead as feral zombies. We're going to kill you. But it can go two ways. We want you to run as fast as you possibly can toward the south of the town to draw the Zombies to you, and right before they catch you, I'll put an arrow through your head to end it instantly. If you don't agree to do this, we'll tie you this building and let the Zombies rip you apart slowly. Dimitry: God I love being Neutral. 4th edition is dead, long live 4th edition. Salla: opinionated, but commonly right. fun quotesShow
If you can't understand how someone yelling at another person would make them fight harder and longer, then you need to look at the forums a bit closer.
quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
Thanks for the info, Kalnaur. This is just the type of thing I've been talking about. 4E books actually have plenty of fluffy role playing things in them, but some people just don't take the time to look. Or if they see it they just say they don't like it so it doesn't count. In other words, some people are never satisfied...that is my own little pissy rant (yours was better).
It would be really funny if WotC released an April Fools role playing Fortune Card deck. What would the cards say? Post your ideas here!
Here is mine: Tough Guy. In response to the NPCs question, you strike a tough pose, openly indicating that you have a weapon and know how to use it. You give him a look and say in a grizzled voice, "I know what you're thinking. 'Can he draw his sword in time?' Well, to tell you the truth I don't know myself. But being as this is a +6 vorpal bastard sword, the most powerful sword in the world, and would slice your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself one question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk?"
Do you really need Wizards of the Coast to make shop inventory and tavern menus?
Yes. I come to a table with a stack of power cards, some dice and some books filled with little rules packets for powers and magic items. Nothing there points to role play. Lots of stuff makes combat easier to do, more interesting to do, more rewarding to do. What makes role play any of that? I look at the table in front of me and see a bunch of minatures and some power cards and guess what happens, they get used and the role-playing gets forgotten. The game has no signpost pointing in the direction of the land of roleplay.
That's your (and your group's) fault for ignoring roleplay. I and my groups seem to have no trouble remembering to roleplay our characters, and to give them motivation and personalities that comes through in combat and non-combat situations.
You claim that a system should point you to roleplaying opportunities. I say the knowledge that the game is a Roleplaying Game means that players should roleplay. There doesn't need to be actual mechancis enforcing roleplay (since every group might have their own definition).
Roleplaying is its own reward. If you like to roleplay, then do it. You shouldn't need a system telling you to do so.
Essentials zigged, when I wanted to continue zagging.
As cute as the Volo's Guide and similar products were, I'm not sure how well they actually sold. Have you sent WotC a letter requesting them to consider that sort of product or article in the future?
