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2 years ago ::
Jan 20, 2011 - 7:04AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Nov 21, 2010
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In answer to the Colonel's question about using 'Two Places At Once' to flank, the flanking rule (GW pg18) states that to flank "you and an ally must be adjacent to an enemy and on opposite sides of the enemies space". Going by the targeting rules on pg26 "You aren't your ally", so technically you can't flank with yourself. Having said that, i'd still be tempted to let the GM decide as this is an unusual case that I don't think the rules were designed to cover. Assuming that your 'other half' is allowed to face in any direction when it appears (there aren't really any facing rules in GW), then you could have it appear behind the enemy and every cut or thrust you make would be mirrored behind it, which I can see being difficult to defend against and would grant combat advantage (but not double damage, see below).
The other problem with Two Places At Once is movement. If you activated the power and then moved, your other half should move appropriately (it should do everything you do as it is, in fact, you). However, the power specifically states that "you can teleport to the chosen square as a free action", so if you moved then activated the teleport you would suddenly rubber-band back to the targeted square regardless of where that 'half' of you was now standing. This leads me to believe that your 'other half' doesn't move to help simplify the power.
Technically you can still make your 'other half' appear 5 squares upwards, at which point the GM has to decide whether you fall or not (you are both on solid ground and in mid air simultaneously). Going by my previously ruling of "your other half doesn't move" you wouldn't fall until you decided to teleport to that square, and then would fall normally if you couldn't fly. Floating in mid air does have a number of useful applications including attacking flying enemies and getting books off a top shelf.
One thing I would add is that you could potentially try to use this power to attack two enemies at once. I would say that this isn't something a utility power is designed to do and probably isn't in the spirit of the game. From a game point of view I would rule that, unlike the other two doppleganger powers that specifically create duplicates, with Two Places At Once you have split yourself across space and as such have to concentrate on one viewpoint at a time in order to do somethng as complex as fighting (if it was something simple like pressing two buttons at once I would generally allow that). As always interpretation is up to the GM so i'd check with them before the session starts to make a ruling on all the above.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 20, 2011 - 11:23AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2011
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Based on the previous responses I believe it has been established that whatever the doppleganger and their clone does are mutually exclusive (especially in terms of activated powers).
My question is this, say for example you have a Doppleganger/Rat Swarm mutant and the following (simplified) scenario occurs:
Round 1: The doppleganger uses "Double Trouble" to create a clone.
Round 2: The clone uses "Swarm!" (Encounter power) on a foe. The clone disappears/dies.
Round 3: The doppleganger uses "Double Trouble" to create a new clone.
Question: Will the new clone also be able to use "Swarm!"? Was it only the first clone that used up the encounter power? Or does its use count towards all future clones for that encounter? Or would the clones simply keep regaining "Swarm!" because the original (doppleganger) still hasn't used it yet?
But then would the reverse also be true? As the clone is a duplicate of the doppleganger, if the doppleganger used "Swarm!" prior to creating a clone would all those clones also have "Swarm!" expired/used?
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2 years ago ::
Jan 20, 2011 - 1:15PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Apr 17, 2008
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There isn't a definitive answer on this. It's a gray area in the rules, but I've been playing it (and ammo) as you can only use your encounter power once, and you can use it or your doppelganger can use it, but not both.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 20, 2011 - 10:21PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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Based on the previous responses I believe it has been established that whatever the doppleganger and their clone does are mutually exclusive (especially in terms of activated powers).
My question is this, say for example you have a Doppleganger/Rat Swarm mutant and the following (simplified) scenario occurs:
Round 1: The doppleganger uses "Double Trouble" to create a clone.
Round 2: The clone uses "Swarm!" (Encounter power) on a foe. The clone disappears/dies.
Round 3: The doppleganger uses "Double Trouble" to create a new clone.
Question: Will the new clone also be able to use "Swarm!"? Was it only the first clone that used up the encounter power? Or does its use count towards all future clones for that encounter? Or would the clones simply keep regaining "Swarm!" because the original (doppleganger) still hasn't used it yet?
But then would the reverse also be true? As the clone is a duplicate of the doppleganger, if the doppleganger used "Swarm!" prior to creating a clone would all those clones also have "Swarm!" expired/used?
The clone does not disperse/die until after your next turn is over. So, in essence, the turn after you create a clone, if you create another, you'll have two clones until the end of your turn at which point your first clone will go away and your new clone can act.
In any case, I would agree with Oraibi and would house rule thusly: Your first clone used "Swarm!" Therefore neither you nor any subsequent clone would be able to use the power.
Now, the reading of this could all be wrong and the madcap guys at wizards may have insisted that if you create a clone, it can use all the powers your original character can use as long as it's not omega tech-, doppleganger-, or alpha mutation-based and hasn't been spent (IE: Your character hasn't used "Swarm!"). Then, the following turn, your character, who hasn't used those powers, can create another clone with those powers all in tact. The moment your main character uses an encounter power, it is no longer available for a clone to use.
That becomes CRAZY powerful, but I wouldn't put it past wizards to have intended said loop since GW seems to be an unbalanced game on purpose.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 21, 2011 - 6:28AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jan 20, 2011
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The clone does not disperse/die until after your next turn is over. So, in essence, the turn after you create a clone, if you create another, you'll have two clones until the end of your turn at which point your first clone will go away and your new clone can act.
Yes, from what I read the clone has an initiative just below the doppleganger's, so technically it could act right after the doppleganger's turn ends, and thus use "Swarm!" in the very first round. However I didn't want to muddy the waters by including multiple actions per round in my example. Also, it's true the doppleganger could create a second clone before the first expired, even though all this would mean is the doppleganger was using his standard actions for those 2 rounds just to create clones. I could see the potential here of creating "clone soldiers" to fight for you, while you hang back out of harm's way.
In any case, I would agree with Oraibi and would house rule thusly: Your first clone used "Swarm!" Therefore neither you nor any subsequent clone would be able to use the power.
Well I can certain see "Swarm!" being abused, or other Encounter origin powers even more. In fact I know first hand it can be abused as I played said character one night when the player in question had to leave early. I didn't read the powers properly and missed out on the fact that "Swarm!" was an Encounter power. I believe this occurred because we all expected the origin powers to be "At Will" since Alpha Mutations, for the most part, were the Encounter powers.
Now, the reading of this could all be wrong and the madcap guys at wizards may have insisted that if you create a clone, it can use all the powers your original character can use as long as it's not omega tech-, doppleganger-, or alpha mutation-based and hasn't been spent (IE: Your character hasn't used "Swarm!"). Then, the following turn, your character, who hasn't used those powers, can create another clone with those powers all in tact. The moment your main character uses an encounter power, it is no longer available for a clone to use.
That becomes CRAZY powerful, but I wouldn't put it past wizards to have intended said loop since GW seems to be an unbalanced game on purpose.
That's certainly a possibility. This wouldn't be the first origin power that could be abused. I mean there's Magnetic and Temporal to consider as well. For me I'll probably present the facts to my players and ask them what they prefer. As we rotate duties as GM sooner or later we'll all have to deal with it, or benefit from it (as a player). If they're fine with it being over-powered, then we'll play it that way, otherwise we'll restrict it. Thanks for the advice guys.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 21, 2011 - 3:16PM
#16
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To me it seems it boils down to whether the duplicate is you or a separate person.
The double trouble power states:
Effect: you create a duplicate of your self in a unoccupied square within 5 of you. The duplicate acts in the initiative order directly after you and can take all actions you can take, except it can't use Doppelganger powers, Alpha mutations, or Omega Techs. Its statistics are the same as yours, except that it has only 1 hp. Your duplicate disappears when it drops to 0 hp or at the end of your next turn.
but it could easily be written like this:
Effect: you create your friend Dave in a unoccupied square within 5 of you. Dave acts in the initiative order directly after you and can take all actions you can take, except Dave can't use Doppelganger powers, Alpha mutations, or Omega Techs. Dave's statistics are the same as yours, except that Dave has only 1 hp. Your friend Dave disappears when he drops to 0 hp or at the end of your next turn.
Your duplicate A.K.A Dave is its own person.
With that being said it is pretty clear that when Dave is created it has the same actions available to him as you. If your encounter power is used by you and thus not available to be used by you when Dave is created he does not have that encounter. When Dave uses an encounter power, meaning you had not used that power when he was created, you will continue to have that encounter power even after Dave has used his encounter power since it was Dave who used his power not your power.
So as long has your two possible three non-doppelganger encounter powers are not used by you before you create Dave, Dave can use them.
Also that means that Dave would not benefit from critical bonus due to Dave is not you.
If you mostly live through Dave and take a standard action each turn to create Dave, and who wouldn't its Dave, Dave will have the benefit of always having its encounter powers (2-3) available to use but will not have critical powers, alpha mutations, or omega techs to use.
Fair trade?
On second thought Dave would have the critical benefits since it is an action you can do so Dave would be able to use them, except he would not be able to use the double-trouble power as a free action due to it is a doppelganger power.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 21, 2011 - 9:47PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2008
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Yes, the critical is a trait, not a power. If the doppleganger's critical was included in the exemption list, it would probably be everyone's first choice to take the other origin's critical first.
In any case, the critical is not important since it would grant the use of a doppleganger power as a free action in addition to 1d10 extra damage. So the clone would get to use the 1d10, but not the special.
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2 years ago ::
Mar 04, 2011 - 1:38PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2009
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This is really a strange character to play and DM (I'm doing both).
First of all, I never saw a restriction on a "Free" action saying it can't take place at some times (like between an attack and damage, for instance). Is this actually specified in the GW guide or in erratta somewhere? I thought free just said "Any Time". (I'm not disagreeing, just wanted to be able to point it out to players)
The "Two places at once" seems to be written in such a way that the "Target" clone/square is just a dummy--it doesn't say it can attack or move, it simply says you "Occupy" that square and may choose it. So is this power essentially supposed to be a teleport 5 as a minor? That would put it in line with other powers like the speedsters "Shift up to your speed" as a minor.
As for the clone getting to use an encounter power more than once a combat, there is no way that's how the rules are intended or even a good idea. Perhpas they thought they didn't have to specify that an encounter power is only allowed to be used once per encounter because that's already pretty clear.
Logically, perhaps, your clone COULD keep using it, but there is no way any DM would allow that and no way that's how it was intended. They will probably clarify later by adding that clones can't use encounter powers either.
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2 years ago ::
May 14, 2011 - 6:40PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Oct 22, 2009
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I've been DMing and playing the dopple for a while--it's really exploitable and poorly defined. It can already dominate the battlefield so you have to be willing to be a little restrictive.
I agree the free should allow you to vanish between beign hit and taking damage (the same way that you can yell "DUCK" just before someone is going to be hit--as a free action), but it's obviously meant to just be another minor teleport power and should probably be read that way. I do think that both squares should get oppertunity attacks because you are in both, but we've been playing that you can't "Break" another's action even though an immediate interrupt can)
The only way to make the clone valid is that he IS you. If he uses an encounter power, it's gone. If he shoots a weapon twice, ammo is gone.
The part that confuses me is conditions. I've been saying that if I'm blind, he's not and if I'm at +2 to attacks for any reason, he's not. This is just my extension of the "No omega tech, no alpha powers" rule. I see him as a "Reset" version of my character.
Finally, I don't think salvaged Omega tech is Omega tech any more. The way the cards generally read is that when salvaged "It becomes a ... neck slot item..." I'm not convinced that these items should be considered Omega tech any more, they are just items or weapons that have been "Salvaged From" broken omega tech.
There are obviously other interpretations of this--but does anyone have any text aside from the obvious that we're quoting here to clarify this?
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2 years ago ::
Jul 05, 2011 - 10:24PM
#20
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Date Joined:
May 23, 2011
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As for the clone getting to use an encounter power more than once a combat, there is no way that's how the rules are intended or even a good idea. Perhpas they thought they didn't have to specify that an encounter power is only allowed to be used once per encounter because that's already pretty clear.
Logically, perhaps, your clone COULD keep using it, but there is no way any DM would allow that and no way that's how it was intended. They will probably clarify later by adding that clones can't use encounter powers either.
How is the clone getting to use an encounter power more than once per encounter not a good idea? Yes, it's broken, but unless the character just dominates the game and makes it less fun for the other players, it's an awesome idea.
And actually, my DM is allowing my clone to keep using the encounter powers. Because it's the rules as written. And clones not using encounter powers? At all? That's pretty ridiculous and kind of a waste of an awesome power.
obviously
You keep saying this word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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