You DO have a product/ service that works. It's online and it works just fine. The fact that you refuse to use the online CB is a moot point. It's there, and it works. Simple as that.
Shame that isn't actually true. Neither the current MB or the current online CB work. The current character builder for example can't even print correctly after the last update, there are numerous bugs and that's before we even look at the features that were in the old builder that the new one cannot do.
You DO have a product/ service that works. It's online and it works just fine. The fact that you refuse to use the online CB is a moot point. It's there, and it works. Simple as that.
Shame that isn't actually true. Neither the current MB or the current online CB work. The current character builder for example can't even print correctly after the last update, there are numerous bugs and that's before we even look at the features that were in the old builder that the new one cannot do.
There are issues with both. There will always be issues with both. It's a program.
Some people in my group are DDI guys, and I have used both tools. They have had minimal issues with both. They work fine. The printing issue you are talking about is minor. You can still see the relevant info on the sheet, so it's not really an issue for playing imo.
Assuming that everything was working (cb, mt, vt, etc, compendium) they have released products that basically give you access to *everything* in their books, without the need to buy books. So, to cover this, you pay $14/mo. For me, this $14/mo is about what I pay yearly on books, maybe a little less.
On the flip side, I no longer by books. I buy adventures, but my need for the books is basically gone.
As a result, they cannot or will not, give it away for free. Because of this, we are required to pay while they learn and experiment. Not saying its right, but I understand why they are charging.
Welcome to the digital world.
However, the books still have two fundamental advantages:
- first, the digital offerings are more an encyclopedia type of resource than a manual try to teach someoe D&D from those tools and they will run screaming; books have a much more gentle learning curve (the PHP/Ho* and DMG/DMK at least)
- second, they are more time resistant; a new edition launches, 50% (at least) of the content in digital format are likely to disapear, because its in WotC interest to move ppl to the new edition (just look at the rift between 3.5 and 4th Ed).
Its a double edged sword really. If the compendium and cb were free, like the old SRD, then you wouldn't really need to by books to play. If you don't buy books, they get no money. No money, no products. So by that account, they cannot offer it free while they design and develope. Unfortunately, like many of you, this pisses me off as I feel cheated that they are basically beta testing with my money. I paid for a year, I will let my account go till it expires; but still, it doesn't make me happy.
You were paying for a service, basically; some parts sucked, yes, but some dont (something im amazed everyone keeps forgetting is the Compendium, and amaizing tool, which was kept fairly updated).
If the CB and MB were free, but they required you have a DDi account, to enter in book codes to *your* account, that then unlocked more than just the free first 3 PHB & MM levels, they would not only be ablew to offer this product free, but also still give a need for book purchases. Same goes for the monster builder. They don't even need to charge more, as you are already paying 34.95 (or whatever) for the book, you're simply unlocking the content. This, my opinion, would have been the way to go. On top of this, if you don't want Dark Sun, don't by the darn books or unlock the content. Then the 4e folks and the 4e Essentials folks can play together or separate.
It's not without issue. Book stores might need to now have their books shrinkwrapped. So? Put 1 book out for folks to look at, a special copy Wizards gives each store without a code. But, you can protect your codes.
Heck at this point, they can offer you the opportunity to unlock the content online only, for the same cost as a book in the store. I think it's nutts to pay $34.95 for the unlock code only but to keep FLGS happy and not pull from business, they could do it. In this way, when you buy the code, they simply unlock the content. You never actually get the code, so you cannot share the code, but even if they did give it to you, it's 1 time use, linked to your account with your name, address and cc information.
Its a possible solution, and something that is already being used, notably by the O´Reilly publishing group and their Safary program; im unsure what the success rate for this model is (its also the model may games work with).
Long winded, but were paying for the content and the testing all that the same time because of the business model they selected.
Im not sure i folllowed your argument, but it seemed you defended the pay-per-article model.
The problem with this is that there isnt a truly viable way for micro-payments yet (it has been the holy grail of the internet commerce since forever), unless you count the app store model, where you still have an account with a credit card associated, and a fairly number of transactions to suporte it; im unsure the RPG audience for it would compensate, but its also what some are suggesting in the forums, and would be a strong argument for what may basically be the end of the magazine format.
Some people in my group are DDI guys, and I have used both tools. They have had minimal issues with both. They work fine.
Hate to jump in, but I am currently DM for my group. I run Dark Sun. The Monster Builder is nigh wholly worthless to me. So, I don't use it. If that's workin' 'fine', I'd hate to see a poor performer.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.
Section Six Soldier
Front Door of the House of Trolls
If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.
Some people in my group are DDI guys, and I have used both tools. They have had minimal issues with both. They work fine.
Hate to jump in, but I am currently DM for my group. I run Dark Sun. The Monster Builder is nigh wholly worthless to me. So, I don't use it. If that's workin' 'fine', I'd hate to see a poor performer.
it is working fine. It just doesn't have Dark Sun material in it. The choice was to release Dark Sun material only in the new online versions. Which people are free to think what ever they want of that business choice.
It may well work but it doesn't work for me. I can't use it. So, it doesn't work. I'd guess I'm not the only DS DM with this issue. Meh, it's just frustration on my part. I keep waiting and waiting and nothing happens. I'd really, really like to be able to more easily customize monsters and, most importantly, print stat blocks so I don't have to write so much stuff down, have so many books open, delay combat because I need to rummage through pages or notes to find something, etc. DMing 4e was supposed to be easier - not the same. In any event, no matter how beautifully it runs, if it doesn't have the content you need it's useless. Doesn't work. So some of us have a broken tool or none at all. But yeah, I'll admit this is in part due to frustration on my part.
Resident Prophet of the OTTer.
Section Six Soldier
Front Door of the House of Trolls
If you're terribly afraid of your character dying, it may be best if you roleplayed something other than an adventurer.
Ya, I'm not really arguing *if* the value of what we get is worth the price so much as I am, in my own way, explaining to the folks who argue that they feel it shoudl be free.
I personally think it could be free, as I detailed in my content code explanation, but when I say free I only mean the core tool plus tghe content you purchase. Likewise, while I don't play Dark Sun, right now, I'm getting all the book crunch for free under their current model.
Anyway, I fully agree with the book comment. I may not buy them enymore, but let me tell you, I prefer them. It's contrary I know. In the "old" dayds I bought them all. I have no cluse if TSR/Wizards released eratta, I never cared. When 4e came out I got the 3 book set. But, sadly as things went on I saw sooooo much eratta come out, I felt my purchase was lacking.
I signed up for the DDi, and realized that honestly, as a GM who makes his own world, with his own story, and simply drops in adventures, or encounters, modified to fit this world, the rest of the books became less and less value to me.
Don't get me wrong, I own every dang 3.5 book I can think of.
Today, I own 7 now total. 3 book set for 4e (maybe 60$ on amazon), the 2 new essentails player books, the dm book and the monster book (way under $60 total). Toss in 2 years of DDi (under the various prices including my buy ayear now and save money) and with my autorenew off, this is wayyyyyy less from me that Wizards has ever seen.
So, back to the point, the current model at best brought in $150 (toss in some dice or what not) from me over the past 2-3 years. If I estimate the DDi during this time also ran me maybe 110, that's $260 total.
Now here is what I hate to add in, but its honestly the best example I personally know of. Paizo or Apple. You make an account, with your name, address, cc on file and when you buy books, magazines, or whatever they keep it on your account. Hell even Blizzard is similar to this. If you by e-books or mags, you can download them over and over from the account, all water marked and taged with your personal info. If you unlock game content, its added to your account as well.
Then when you log in with the online builder it authenticates you, informs the db you have access to core 3 levels, mm, phb, dmg, hotfl, rc, dmb, hotfk, and mv.
I guess I struggle with what Wizards find hard about 1 time payments or "micro-payments" as you called them. keeping in mind that the tool is free and so is access to it, the only payment is to release content once.
Well, I got long winded again, my apologies. I realize its all just speculation and conversation, and a million folks will read this and tell me how this is flawed and will fail. I'm just not seeing it. I'm not saying its all fleshed out, and clearly we don't have all ins and outs listed on how this works, but I still feel this business model is firm.
What I cannot see that is a potential huge concern is the current numbers. The plan I gave means no long term income flow, its effectively just like selling books. No subscription with a guaranteed income source. So if Wizards is seeing book sales just as strong as before and DDi subscriptions above that, then right now they are pulling in a lot of cash. This would decrease that flow to a degree. If however Wizards is finding that this whole DDi and full access path is killing book sales or sales over all, this model suddenly makes those books of great value again and necessary.
It may well work but it doesn't work for me. I can't use it. So, it doesn't work. I'd guess I'm not the only DS DM with this issue. Meh, it's just frustration on my part. I keep waiting and waiting and nothing happens. I'd really, really like to be able to more easily customize monsters and, most importantly, print stat blocks so I don't have to write so much stuff down, have so many books open, delay combat because I need to rummage through pages or notes to find something, etc. DMing 4e was supposed to be easier - not the same. In any event, no matter how beautifully it runs, if it doesn't have the content you need it's useless. Doesn't work. So some of us have a broken tool or none at all. But yeah, I'll admit this is in part due to frustration on my part.
Actually it does work, you can enter all the information yourself, but of course, that's not really the point of the Monster Builder, I know. The point is to have access to the basic monster so that you can alter it to your needs.
If you just want to print them out, well again, you can do the work yourself. But at the same time, you aren't a DDI member, which I respect your choice not to be one, but since it was their choice to make Dark Sun material a cut off for the old model to add value to the new model, that's the choice you are left with.
It works, you just have to do some of the information inputting yourself. Or find a similiar monster, and adapt it.
Hate to jump in, but I am currently DM for my group. I run Dark Sun. The Monster Builder is nigh wholly worthless to me. So, I don't use it. If that's workin' 'fine', I'd hate to see a poor performer.
Technically it still works fine. I am running dark sun and I just manually entered the monsters in. Took about 10 minutes per monster and I only added the ones I needed for my adventure. You could argue you should not have to enter it in, but it is still a million times better and faster than making the notes by hand or entering them into a spread sheet stat block.
at pruano Ya, I'm not really arguing *if* the value of what we get is worth the price so much as I am, in my own way, explaining to the folks who argue that they feel it shoudl be free.
I personally think it could be free, as I detailed in my content code explanation, but when I say free I only mean the core tool plus tghe content you purchase. Likewise, while I don't play Dark Sun, right now, I'm getting all the book crunch for free under their current model.
Anyway, I fully agree with the book comment. I may not buy them enymore, but let me tell you, I prefer them. It's contrary I know. In the "old" dayds I bought them all. I have no cluse if TSR/Wizards released eratta, I never cared. When 4e came out I got the 3 book set. But, sadly as things went on I saw sooooo much eratta come out, I felt my purchase was lacking.
I signed up for the DDi, and realized that honestly, as a GM who makes his own world, with his own story, and simply drops in adventures, or encounters, modified to fit this world, the rest of the books became less and less value to me.
Don't get me wrong, I own every dang 3.5 book I can think of.
Today, I own 7 now total. 3 book set for 4e (maybe 60$ on amazon), the 2 new essentails player books, the dm book and the monster book (way under $60 total). Toss in 2 years of DDi (under the various prices including my buy ayear now and save money) and with my autorenew off, this is wayyyyyy less from me that Wizards has ever seen.
So, back to the point, the current model at best brought in $150 (toss in some dice or what not) from me over the past 2-3 years. If I estimate the DDi during this time also ran me maybe 110, that's $260 total.
Is the service vs product /digital vs analog problem.
With a product oriented strategy, you have a one time purchase, with a service oriented , you have a steady income, but you need to charge less (expecially since many times you dont own but lease the content usage).
With analog you USED to have less problems with piracy, and many costumers like to own a physical copy (for the reasons already mentioned), but you have printing, storage and recall costs; with digital, in theory you have less costs to distribute (the costs to produce the content remain the same), but have the piracy issue to deal with. Curiosly, many RPG publishers are following a hybrid strategy, where you buy one of those formats, and for an extra, get the other as well.
The old CB had a fatal flaw: for the cost of a single month, you had permanent access to almost everything printed up to that point, thus allowing to bypass the subscription model; this was certainly one of the reasons for the change.
Now here is what I hate to add in, but its honestly the best example I personally know of. Paizo or Apple. You make an account, with your name, address, cc on file and when you buy books, magazines, or whatever they keep it on your account. Hell even Blizzard is similar to this. If you by e-books or mags, you can download them over and over from the account, all water marked and taged with your personal info. If you unlock game content, its added to your account as well.
Then when you log in with the online builder it authenticates you, informs the db you have access to core 3 levels, mm, phb, dmg, hotfl, rc, dmb, hotfk, and mv.
I guess I struggle with what Wizards find hard about 1 time payments or "micro-payments" as you called them. keeping in mind that the tool is free and so is access to it, the only payment is to release content once.
When i was talking about micro-payments, i was refering to article payments, something less than $3, like most apps, not entire books.
The problem i see is a change of view that ALL the publishing world is going through, the same that the music world had to go through with mp3 and Napster: it takes time, and a proven comercial strategy (which there isnt one yet).
Not to mention that implementing such backend requires an HEAVY initial investment, one that in an impredictable market may be hard to approve (especially for a niche market like RPGs).
