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2 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2011 - 8:27AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2010
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I prefer the 4th Wizard over previous editions. I line the four different implement bonuses- staff, book, orb or wand. They also survive better. The Wizard is one of the few classes I have taken to 30th level. I don't like the Essentials Wizard as much. I don't like being hamstringed into a Evoker or Illusionist role. E Wizard doesn't force this though. I also black magic marker-ed the half damage on a miss on encounters. One of the nice twists with the E wizard is the Enchanter. He does little to no damage but has actual enchantment effects- a nice twist.
I agree I would never play an essentials wizard. 4e has a bastardized and incomplete version of the specialist wizard classes.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2011 - 8:29AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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A) I've always hated prepared casting. It's terrible. 4E lets me play a spontaneous wizard.
2) I can't go back to being able to run out of spells. I just can't. Having at-will spells is amazing.
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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2 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2011 - 8:31AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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My wife felt the same way you did, until she got into the strategy of playing a wizard. Now she loves the challenge of setting up the battlefield to help her allies while trying to avoid the attacks that exploit her weaknesses. Once she stopped looking for how her character could end the battle and instead concentrated on how she can contribute to the battle, she said she would never go back to playing a 3e wizard.
Wrecan, this is probably the most insightful comment I have ever read in regards to this issue. Well done!
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2 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2011 - 8:39AM
#14
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2010
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A) I've always hated prepared casting. It's terrible. 4E lets me play a spontaneous wizard.
2) I can't go back to being able to run out of spells. I just can't. Having at-will spells is amazing.
well other editions had optional spell point systems. I agree that the memorization system was tedious at best. On the other hand your character had access to a few dozen spells that he could select per day which made him far more versatile. I just don't see the wizard as a spell caster anymore. To me he is a controller not a wizard wielding magic.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2011 - 8:45AM
#15
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2008
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I don't think they were gods before. Even the cleric is the same way.
I can understand beefing up the other classes, but the wizard plays very different than before. Maybe it is just the lack of show stopper spells. It also doesn't seem like my character is using magic anymore.
What I mean is that in 4e you have 16 effects, damage dice, movement (pull, slides), and various bonuses. 4e powers seem to be just combinations of those. All the classes do this. So it isn't that the wizard is more powerful, it is that the spell casters are not any different.
You say you don't think Wizards had ultimate power before, and yet you miss the "show stopper spells". If having spells that are effectively an "I win" button doesn't qualify as ultimate power, what does?
Yes, 4E has attempted like never before to put the classes on even ground. I think this is a good thing, as it means you don't have to be using magic to feel special or powerful. How does it not seem like your wizard is doing magic? If you define magic as "really cool stuff that the other characters can't do", then I guess you might be right, but I would recommend a less selfish definition of magic. Your wizard is still blasting foes with pure force, lighting bolts, and fireballs. He is still flying with the power of his mind. He can still teleport, and open gates, and summon fantastic monsters, and...well, the list goes on. My point is that the choice is yours. You can play a wizard like this:
"I use my encounter power...I guess it is called 'fireburst'. It hits all creatures in an area burst 2...I hit the two orcs...they take 3d6 + 9 fire damage...that comes out to 20 fire damage."
or like this:
"I quickly speak the words for Kilgore's Incendiary Surprise, and a burst of flames erupts in the middle of the group of orcs!" [roll for attack and damage]
This is why I find it funny when people say, "The wizard no longer feels like it uses magic." While the all powerful magic is no longer handed to you on a silver platter, the magic is still there. It just requires a little roleplaying...funny, huh?
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2 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2011 - 8:59AM
#16
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The magic is in the roleplaying where it has always been.
People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. --George Orwell There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. --Howard Zinn He who fights with monsters must take care lest he thereby become a monster. --Friedrich Nietzsche 
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2 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2011 - 9:02AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Jan 29, 2010
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The pyromancer I use in Encounters is quite the show-off, so I'll have him do stuff like turning his back on his target and throwing a ball of fire over his shoulder.
"Censorship is telling a man he can’t have a steak just because a baby can’t chew it.”
~Mark Twain
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2 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2011 - 9:05AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2005
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well other editions had optional spell point systems.
Yeah, and I tried them, but they were waay to clunky for my liking and still resulted in my being able to run out of spells.
On the other hand your character had access to a few dozen spells that he could select per day which made him far more versatile.
Yeah, but at a certain point, being versatile just doesn't matter to me anymore because I'm never going to use all of those options and don't really care about all of those options. When I play a spellcaster, as when I play any other character, I have a character in mind with a theme that I want to go for, not just a ton of mechanics that tell me what I have available to do. I've just never played a spellcaster that didn't have a specific theme or reason behind every selected spell, and in sticking to those, I just don't have any desire or even need to make use of all of the versatility that I theoretically have. Heck, even with a 4E Wizard I can only barely make myself find a use for their ability to switch out prepared dailies.
I just don't see the wizard as a spell caster anymore. To me he is a controller not a wizard wielding magic.
I'm very sorry for you. =P
Another thing that I love about the 4E Wizard, and really that I love about 4E powers as a whole is that, because 4E is more gamist as opposed to 3.5 being more simulationist, reflavoring is a lot easier and better encouraged, so I feel like I can make my spells even more personalized than they were before. I just don't have as easy of a time making my necrotic botanist in 3.5...
Why, yes, as a matter of fact I am the Unfailing Arbiter of All That Is Good Design (Even More So Than The Actual Developers) TMSpeaking of things that were badly designed, please check out this thread for my Minotaur fix. What have the critics said, you ask? "If any of my players ask to play a Minotaur, I'm definitely offering this as an alternative to the official version." - EmpactWB "If I ever feel like playing a Minotaur I'll know where to look!" - Undrave "WoTC if you are reading this - please take this guy's advice." - Ferol_Debtor_of_Torm "Really full of win. A minotaur that is actually attractive for more than just melee classes." - Cpt_Micha Also, check out my recent GENASI variant! If you've ever wished that your Fire Genasi could actually set stuff on fire, your Water Genasi could actually swim, or your Wind Genasi could at least glide, then look no further. Finally, check out my OPTIONS FOR EVERYONE article, an effort to give unique support to the races that WotC keeps forgetting about. Includes new racial feature options for the Changeling, Deva, Githzerai, Gnoll, Gnome, Goliath, Half-Orc, Kalashtar, Minotaur, Shadar-Kai, Thri-Kreen, Warforged and more!
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2 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2011 - 9:06AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Jan 27, 2010
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I don't think they were gods before. Even the cleric is the same way.
I can understand beefing up the other classes, but the wizard plays very different than before. Maybe it is just the lack of show stopper spells. It also doesn't seem like my character is using magic anymore.
What I mean is that in 4e you have 16 effects, damage dice, movement (pull, slides), and various bonuses. 4e powers seem to be just combinations of those. All the classes do this. So it isn't that the wizard is more powerful, it is that the spell casters are not any different.
You say you don't think Wizards had ultimate power before, and yet you miss the "show stopper spells". If having spells that are effectively an "I win" button doesn't qualify as ultimate power, what does?
Yes, 4E has attempted like never before to put the classes on even ground. I think this is a good thing, as it means you don't have to be using magic to feel special or powerful. How does it not seem like your wizard is doing magic? If you define magic as "really cool stuff that the other characters can't do", then I guess you might be right, but I would recommend a less selfish definition of magic. Your wizard is still blasting foes with pure force, lighting bolts, and fireballs. He is still flying with the power of his mind. He can still teleport, and open gates, and summon fantastic monsters, and...well, the list goes on. My point is that the choice is yours. You can play a wizard like this:
"I use my encounter power...I guess it is called 'fireburst'. It hits all creatures in an area burst 2...I hit the two orcs...they take 3d6 + 9 fire damage...that comes out to 20 fire damage."
or like this:
"I quickly speak the words for Kilgore's Incendiary Surprise, and a burst of flames erupts in the middle of the group of orcs!" [roll for attack and damage]
This is why I find it funny when people say, "The wizard no longer feels like it uses magic." While the all powerful magic is no longer handed to you on a silver platter, the magic is still there. It just requires a little roleplaying...funny, huh?
I'm not asking for the wizard to be anymore powerful than the other classes.
Yes I see no reason why other classes can't also have show stopper powers. In fact, I think that in 4e characters are all gods even at 1st level. Even a 1st level melee class in 4e can deal huge amounts of damage that would make a wizards fireball look pathetic. So I don't understand that argument. Why take away versatility or creativity with magic for the sake of making all the classes god like?
I really think the entire argument about magic being taken away is a valid one. Magic is not unique anymore.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 14, 2011 - 9:16AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2006
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My friend's wizard seemed pretty magical to me when he used a magical fist of force to punch a beholder out of the sky and into a wall of fire, where our friend's fighter pinned him down.
While only a multiclass wizard, my swordmage seemed pretty magical when he entered the elemental chaos alone and beat an encounter meant for a party by chain-teleporting past all the enemies while magically turning aside attacks, grabbed the wand he came for, and chain-teleported his way back, including a final teleport triggered by dropping to 0 HP taking him through the portal back home where the ritualist on duty closed it up behind him.
There's a lot of really out there powers if you look hard enough, but as for the many that are as you describe: the concise set of specific effects as well as damage dice, area, etc. serve to form as unambiguous of a language as possible: they are just that, a language. It's a pretty easy language to learn, but at first you're still thinking of it from your pre-existing perspective and not really internalizing it and it all seems the same. Once you internalize it, seeing both the differences inherent in the powers themselves as well as due to interactions with other game elements such as other powers, class features, and feats you will start to get a visceral feel for the difference between, say, a fighter pounding an enemy, shoving him back with his shield and pinning him down w/ CC+CS vs a wizard blowing back a wave of enemies with Thunderwave and then booking it because nothing is keeping them back.
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