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2 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2011 - 8:17PM
#1031
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The defenses really don't spread that far apart as it did for Touch AC in the previous system. That is one of the reasons the Warlock's Eldritch Blast was so effective then.
Shrug I see ranges from 1 to 6 with 2 being a solid average.. but some that I use quite a bit still being 4s.. (human militia make good guards for miscellaneous purposes). I guess it does highly vary by what selection of enemies you use. Do you normally use published adventures?
Well if you are talking about 3rd try a typical great wyrm red dragon 41 AC and 2(!) touch AC. What would youy like to attack? Wraith strike for the win.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2011 - 8:23PM
#1032
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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The defenses really don't spread that far apart as it did for Touch AC in the previous system. That is one of the reasons the Warlock's Eldritch Blast was so effective then.
Shrug I see ranges from 1 to 6 with 2 being a solid average.. but some that I use quite a bit still being 4s.. (human militia make good guards for miscellaneous purposes). I guess it does highly vary by what selection of enemies you use. Do you normally use published adventures?
Well if you are talking about 3rd try a typical great wyrm red dragon 41 AC and 2(!) touch AC. What would youy like to attack? Wraith strike for the win.
Sorry thats too rock paper scissors -- ridiculous
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2 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2011 - 8:29PM
#1033
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The defenses really don't spread that far apart as it did for Touch AC in the previous system. That is one of the reasons the Warlock's Eldritch Blast was so effective then.
Shrug I see ranges from 1 to 6 with 2 being a solid average.. but some that I use quite a bit still being 4s.. (human militia make good guards for miscellaneous purposes). I guess it does highly vary by what selection of enemies you use. Do you normally use published adventures?
Well if you are talking about 3rd try a typical great wyrm red dragon 41 AC and 2(!) touch AC. What would youy like to attack? Wraith strike for the win.
Sorry thats too rock paper scissors -- ridiculous
Exactly why it is a problem. You can then power attack full and still expect to hit with every attack that is not a one. While this is an extreme, touch AC is mostly stupid in mechanics (though not in concept) and it is mostly a problem for all monsters above 6th level or so.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2011 - 9:04PM
#1034
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
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Well, 4th edition is in another extreme, where the AC doesn't defer much from the Defenses. My point about all this is that the major difference between the Impliments and Weapons is the fact about which one gets the Proficency bonus and the other does not. My overall belief is that the difference between having the bonus or hitting Defenses isn't adding up. Casters are getting the short end of the stick.
The difference between the wizard of the two edition is that one tries to hit Def while the previous edition makes others try to save.
The recent Errata for half damage on a lot of spells helps negate this disadvantage, but it is still there. One can take feats to improve, or spend money on magical impliments (good luck on any actually dropping, unless you have a very kind DM) that slightly improve your chances.
It is simple, as I said before, Impliments don't give bonuses for being proficent. Weapons do.
Terms you should know... Spoiler:
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
Show
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks.
* Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank.
* Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture.
* Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things.
* Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
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2 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2011 - 9:36PM
#1035
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Well, 4th edition is in another extreme, where the AC doesn't defer much from the Defenses. My point about all this is that the major difference between the Impliments and Weapons is the fact about which one gets the Proficency bonus and the other does not. My overall belief is that the difference between having the bonus or hitting Defenses isn't adding up. Casters are getting the short end of the stick.
The difference between the wizard of the two edition is that one tries to hit Def while the previous edition makes others try to save.
The recent Errata for half damage on a lot of spells helps negate this disadvantage, but it is still there. One can take feats to improve, or spend money on magical impliments (good luck on any actually dropping, unless you have a very kind DM) that slightly improve your chances.
It is simple, as I said before, Impliments don't give bonuses for being proficent. Weapons do.
I would not call that an extreme. Considering that we are talking about a very small difference in effectiveness compared to 3.5 where the difference could be greater than a d20 can handle I think it is a little extreme to call this an extreme.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 28, 2011 - 9:58PM
#1036
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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It is simple, as I said before, Impliments don't give bonuses for being proficent. Weapons do.
go back and read my first response ... to you on this looking at monsters the range is from 1 to 6 better due to attacking reflex instead of ac....and its actually usually more extreme with will... the benefit is unpredictable but you seem to be wrong.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 29, 2011 - 7:34AM
#1037
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2008
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The defenses really don't spread that far apart as it did for Touch AC in the previous system. That is one of the reasons the Warlock's Eldritch Blast was so effective then.
Shrug I see ranges from 1 to 6 with 2 being a solid average.. but some that I use quite a bit still being 4s.. (human militia make good guards for miscellaneous purposes). I guess it does highly vary by what selection of enemies you use. Do you normally use published adventures?
Well if you are talking about 3rd try a typical great wyrm red dragon 41 AC and 2(!) touch AC. What would youy like to attack? Wraith strike for the win.
Sorry thats too rock paper scissors -- ridiculous
They're also being a bit deceitful. While the ranges between touch and regular AC COULD be extreme, they were very rarely as extreme as that dragon. But let's examine the dragon's AC range for a minute.
That dragon is for level 26 parties, so we'll have a half-ord fighter take a swing at it. By 26th level that fighter will be sporting a nice 37 strength(20 start + 5 for tome + 6 for item +6 for level) gaining + 13 to hit for strenght, +7 for his weapon, +3 for feats(maybe more), +23 for level, +4(or more) from misc. items for a conservative +50 to hit. He's going to hit that dragon on his first swing for a minimum of -9 to hit.
The wizard will be using touch spells with a strength of probably and a dex of maybe 14, so he'll be at +10 with touch spells and +12 with ranged touch for either -8 or -10 to hit.
The disparity of AC v. Touch AC is only a big deal if you don't take the classes trying to hit those ACs into account. As you can see, even the largest disparity(and the vast majority are far less wide) is roughly even.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 29, 2011 - 8:04AM
#1038
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2007
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I would not call that an extreme. Considering that we are talking about a very small difference in effectiveness compared to 3.5 where the difference could be greater than a d20 can handle I think it is a little extreme to call this an extreme.
The -5/-10/-15 mechanic stretched the d20 pretty well actually.
As for you dragon, most monsters of that level will be using the magic items in their hoard or will be spell casters. Likewise not all monsters rely on natural armor as much as dragons, many will have other modifiers that will also work on their AC. In fact in many campaigns the majority of enemies are humanoids with class levels. My last couple high level PCs had touch ACs in the 60s and 40s respectively... and the one could potentially get over 100 touch AC if he really tried.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman
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2 years ago ::
Jan 29, 2011 - 9:19AM
#1039
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
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It is simple, as I said before, Impliments don't give bonuses for being proficent. Weapons do.
go back and read my first response ... to you on this looking at monsters the range is from 1 to 6 better due to attacking reflex instead of ac....and its actually usually more extreme with will... the benefit is unpredictable but you seem to be wrong.
What I am saying about that is that it is a poor replacement for not having the bonus to hit. Most Wizards concentrate on one defense, with a couple of spells that go after another. When that one defense is high, the Wizard is ineffective. Dexterity is sometimes the only facter for some monsters, making it the same for AC and Reflex Def. Some monsters have higher Will Def than AC.
Defenses took the place of Saving Throws, I understand this. That the Wizard has to roll instead of the DM is cleaner, simplier, and more involved for the player. My point is that compared to the Martial characters, the Casters have less chance to hit. Feats can make up the difference on this, I believe, but it is something that should have been inherent within the class structure.
I am sure there are the heavy armor wearing monsters that have low dex, or the dumb bunnies that don't have the will, but mostly the monsters are about even in their defenses and typically only have one def that is significantly lower than their AC, by maybe 3 points if lucky.
Terms you should know... Spoiler:
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
Show
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks.
* Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank.
* Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture.
* Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things.
* Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
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2 years ago ::
Jan 29, 2011 - 10:44AM
#1040
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Date Joined:
Jan 15, 2009
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Choosing to specialize in one targetted defense has implications and is ignoring that thinking mans class bit..one of the things which gives the flavor of the spell casters... see the spellcaster player by learning adversaries can improve their performance only have one def that is significantly lower than their AC, by maybe 3 points if lucky.
Your claim should be numerically provable shouldnt it? --- No lucky is 6 points or so I already mentioned that didnt I? You can repeat and I will repeat if you like here is what i will do instead calculate compute divide... Kybers Harvest Adversaries conform to what I said ver closely Average benefit for attacking a nad 2.2 --- yes that is the benefit of proficiency with using my axe. Them crazy light armored fanatic types drag the average benefit down a bit but the orc types seem to do the opposite. The best you could get when lucky as you put it was a 7 and the worst a -1.
Shrug...
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