Shouldn't Cleric hybrid get a serious bump in the wiki, at least to dark blue? Running a mixed Battle Lore Cleric / Serene Runepriest gets you fantastic durability and AC and still leaves your Hybrid Talent open for Rune Mastery.
You're AC is the same as a runepriest (chain + 2 vs scale + light shiled). Or at best +1 (wis + light, vs Wis + 2).
It does allow a 2-hander, but cost you healing word. So... break even. Mabey slightly better since you can pick more powers.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Shouldn't Cleric hybrid get a serious bump in the wiki, at least to dark blue? Running a mixed Battle Lore Cleric / Serene Runepriest gets you fantastic durability and AC and still leaves your Hybrid Talent open for Rune Mastery.
You're AC is the same as a runepriest (chain + 2 vs scale + light shiled). Or at best +1 (wis + light, vs Wis + 2).
It does allow a 2-hander, but cost you healing word. So... break even. Mabey slightly better since you can pick more powers.
Unless you see something else?
Defensively:
Battle Lore nabs you scale as well as part of the lore, so as I understand the RAW it is at least +1 AC for the hybrid with (scale + battlelore) over (scale + light shield). It also nabs you a free hand (or nets you a free feat to break even on Hybrid Talent: Rune Mastery Feat, if you're comparing both wielding polearms and the pure Runepriest has to run Hafted Defense to avoid dropping further behind in AC).
On the other hand, in comparison to the Battle Cleric you've got the ability to achieve the same AC as scale armor through Hide + Wismod, which yields greater mobility. Given that hybridizing usually leads to a devolving to the lower of your two parent classes defenses, the fact that the Hybrid is better defensively than either parent class is a significant exception.
Swapping:
I think I place higher value on the options gained by cherry picking top powers from two classes than you do. I'd say that propelling a Str/Wis Runepriest into the grant-saves-at-will club (through Brand of the Sun, or Sacred Flame if you want ranged options) alone is worth quite a bit more than having Word of Binding. I also argue that a turn-1 Moment of Glory that ignores all enemies and just grants your whole team an encounter-long resist 5/all is nearly a we-win button in early Heroic and probably allows everyone else on your team to save their dailies for that encounter; arguably better than anything the Runepriest has to offer at that point.
Likewise, you have two classes from which to pick feats and Paragon Paths, which doesn't hurt. It's especially nice that both Runepriests and Clerics share a common power source, so feats that work with divine powers (Divine Mastery, for example) can buff both.
Healing: Until you hit Paragon, Hybrid's got x1 Healing Word (better heal, +2 to attack for a single target) and x1 Rune of Mending (slightly weaker heal, broad area damage or defense buff) per encounter, while Runepriest has x2 Rune of Mending. Seems pretty even to me. I admit that at 16th level you fall behind by 1 heal/encounter, but by that time the Hybrid has had an entire tier-and-a-half to cherry pick from.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
Fair enough. I did miss the scale prof. Though I still wouldn't call it skyblue.
I only pushed for dark blue. I do think there's a good case to be made that it is sky blue 1-16, though, as it gains some good things and loses very little - basically, you lose a feat if you want rune mastery, which is a fair trade for +1 AC anyway (and you keep the free hand, which is probably worth another feat). At this point the cherry-picking of powers, feats, and PP takes over to give the Hybrid a solid edge. Pre-16, the Hybrid is actually a better healer due to the ability to downgrade a move action and use both Rune of Mending and Healing Word in a single round (which, with Rune of Mending: Destruction and Battle Cleric's Lore is actually a nice little nova contribution, +2 damage for your whole team and +2 attack to your Healing Word recipient).
I also think that Tactical Warpriest is a fantastic Paragon Path for a Serene Runepriest. Mark punishment + THP on getting hit is a beautifully simple Catch-22. Even a Wisdom-based Runepriest can run Word of Diminishment: Destruction at full power, and the mark punishment off Tactical Warpriest is an OA (which receives much greater vulnerability from Word of Diminishment). While Tactical Warpriest has to wait for their mark punishment until 16, that's also as long as the pure Runepriest has to wait for any real edge over the Hybrid, so just when the Runepriest catches up to the Hybrid there's a serious boost for the Hybrid.
Could the Runepriest take MC Cleric for Tactical Warpriest? Sure. But by the time they'd get their +1 encounter heal at 16 they're pretty close to epic, and you'll take a big DPS hit without MC Fighter or Ranger at Epic for Slashing Storm.
Summary - Hybrid vs. Pure Runepriest
Pros:
+2 AC over runepriest, or +1 AC and extra hand (nice for polearm or, given the perfect Runepriest stats on Goliaths, Goliath Greatweapon Prowess)
x2 heals in a single round
Cherry picking feats, PP, powers from 2 classes before MCing and without spending MC feats
Cons:
-1 Encounter heal at 16+
Feats that boost Rune of Mending only boost one of your healing powers
Feat tax of Hybrid Talent if you want to grab Rune Mastery (and you probably should)
I think you might be overrating Rune Mastery, Northwind. Flanking is better than clumping, because clumping is just asking to get AoE'd. For a Runepriest|Cleric, I think spending HT on Channel Divinity is a better idea, personally. It makes you much more versatile and has a lot of support.
1. You're wrong, in which case Runepriest and Hybrid Runepriest / Cleric keep the same ability.
OR
2. You're right, in which case Hybrid Runepriest / Cleric is better off than non-Hybrid Runepriest. This might cause a mild optimization preference to be applied to Hybrids to take Paragon Paths that grant alternative runestates, such as Enlightened Word.
OR
3. You're wrong for some portion of Heroic and become right later on as AoEs become more prevalent. Hybrid can retrain Hybrid Talent out of Rune Mastery and into Channel Divinity at whatever point is deemed optimal - or, again, when you pick up a Paragon Path that grants you an alternative runestate.
Whichever one of these you pick, it seems like additional support in the pro-Hybrid camp to me.
If your in destruction mode, you can flank just fine. It's just a flat boost to allies, even those 20 squares away. Protection mode is less useful, but still quite nice to have for say.. enemies with aura's.
It's a nice feature, worth a feat, but not neccicaraly your first feat, or your only hybrid talent feat (though i do think beats channel divinity).
One downside to hybrids with rune mastery is that you need to use a runepriest power first. You won't get a bonus if you open with an AoE from your cleric side.
And yea, the PP choice makes alot of a difference.
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
I wasn't saying hybriding was bad. On the contrary, I think hybriding Cleric is nearly always a very strong choice. I think it's not necessarily a good idea if it drops your HP value (ie hybriding with a defender). Hybriding is also a strong choice when starting with an undersupported class like the Runepriest, as your options increase many times over.
My comment only pertained to using Hybrid Talent to pick up Rune Mastery. I did not realize it applied to any ally as long as it was against an enemy adjacent to you. I had thought it was a +1 to attack rolls for allies that are adjacent to you. My mistake. In that case, a static, untyped +1 to attack for your party is certainly a good feat, and probably better than a per encounter preemptive reroll. If Favor of the Gods was reactionary then it might be better, but oh well.
I think the Runepriest|Cleric - Tactical Warpriest is a very solid build. Word of Diminishment to up your punishment and Righteous Brand as the punishment to buff an ally is a solid combo.
d20 - I didn't think you were saying it was bad, but your response was to my response to mello's response to my claim that Cleric hybrid should be pushed up to at least dark blue, so I interpreted it in that context. Argument spillage... my bad.
Hybrid Talent Choice
If you want a Hybrid Talent feat as a Hybrid Cleric/Runepriest, it's either Rune mastery or Channel Divinity - the only other choices are armor profs, and you have all of those already except for light shields, which are a waste under Battle Cleric's Lore. A feat to grant your allies +1 to hit any enemies adjacent to you is pretty good if that's all you're going to do with it - if you don't have an alternate runestate I'd probably buy Rune Mastery, use Word of Diminishment in Destruction mode only, and call it a day. A little help for all your friends in the hit and damage department (and a tasty damage boost for you as well).
If you want to spend further feats on your Hybrid Talent, there's 100+ Channel Divinity feats to choose from, and I'm willing to bet there's some solid choices among them. I think Melora's Tide, Glittergold's Gambit, and maybe Righteous Rage of Tempus (if you're running a high-crit weapon with high /plus damage) all warrant at least a look, especially if you're going with an alternative runestate and therefore have lowered the opportunity cost of taking Channel Divinity.
Caveats on the Awesome (why it isn't Hybrid)
I agree that hybrids have a somewhat harder time maintaining runestates, especially runestates that end. On the other hand, runepriests don't enter runestates off a daily, either, so any cleric dailys you decide are better than your runepriest dailies don't alter that equation at all. So all we have to ask about is encounters and at-wills, and your at-will is probably a save-granting power... and in that case, you'll know when using it is a better idea than activating or changing runestate. (If it's not save-granting, as was just pointed out above by d20, it's going to be Righteous Brand as an MBA under Power of Skill for a Tactical Warpriest, at which point it goes from either/or to both/and OA and mark punishment.)
So, really, any additional rune difficulty comes out of encounter power choice. All things otherwise being equal, you'll probably have a mild preference for runepriest encounter powers for 2 of your 3 encounter powers (again, especially if you are using a PP runestate that ends) - or, at least, you will have to include that in your evaluation of which encounter powers to take. If you decide at any given level that running 2 cleric encounters is better than more runic powers
So the Hybrid does not meet the criterion for absolutely better in every way than core runepriest. But it is very, very good. I guess the question is, is Hybridizing Battle Cleric into Runepriest almost always one of the best choices? That's what is required for sky-blue.
So the Hybrid does not meet the criterion for absolutely better in every way than core runepriest. But it is very, very good. I guess the question is, is Hybridizing Battle Cleric into Runepriest almost always one of the best choices? That's what is required for sky-blue.
Disagree.
I agree that Cleric|Runepriest is probably going to be better then cleric or runepriest. But it's not THAT much better, and not all the time.
Not compaired to Runepriest|Warden for instance. Which can effectivly double the bonus you get from rune-aristry AND Rune Master. Since you'll have more enemies close by and attacking you. Or compaired to Runepriest|Avenger/hammer of vengence, which can nail top damage. Or Runepriest|Swarm Druid, who can tank like a revenant (also, can BE a revenant, probably the most tanky build ever).
F-111 Interdictor Long (200+ squares) distance ally teleporter. With some warlord stuff. Broken in a plot way, not a power way. Thought Switch Higher level build that grants upto 14 attacks on turn 1. If your allies play along, it's broken. Elven Critters Crit op with crit generation. 5 of these will end anything. Broken. King Fisher Does an excellent job at keeping an enemy disabled in a few ways. Strong. Boominator Fun catch-22 booming blade build with either strong or completely broken damage depending on your reading. Very Distracting Warlock Lot's of dazing and major penalties to hit. Overpowered. Pocket Protector Pixie Stealth Knight. Maximizing the defender's aura by being in an ally's/enemy's square. Yakuza NinjIntimiAdin: Perma-stealth Striker that offers a little protection for ally's, and can intimidate bloodied enemies. Very Strong. Chargeburgler with cheese Ranged attacks at the end of a charge along with perma-stealth. Solid, could be overpowered if tweaked. Void Defender Defends giving a penalty to hit anyone but him, then removing himself from play. Can get somewhat broken in epic. Scry and Die Attacking from around corners, while staying hidden. Moderate to broken, depending on the situation. Skimisher Fly in, attack, and fly away. Also prevents enemies from coming close. Moderate to Broken depending on the enemy, but shouldn't make the game un-fun, as the rest of your team is at risk, and you have enough weaknesses. Indestructible Simply won't die, even if you sleep though combat. Sir Robin (Bravely Charge Away) He automatically slows and pushes an enemy (5 squares), while charging away. Hard to rate it's power level, since it's terrain dependent. Death's Gatekeeper A fun twist on a healic, making your party "unkillable". Overpowered to Broken, but shouldn't actually make the game un-fun, just TPK proof. Death's Gatekeeper mk2, (Stealth Edition) Make your party "unkillable", and you hidden, while doing solid damage. Stronger then the above, but also easier for a DM to shut down. Broken, until your DM get's enough of it. Domination and Death Dominate everything then kill them quickly. Only works @ 30, but is broken multiple ways. Battlemind Mc Prone-Daze Protecting your allies by keeping enemies away. Quite powerful. The Retaliator Getting hit deals more damage to the enemy then you receive yourself, and you can take plenty of hits. Heavy item dependency, Broken. Dead Kobold Transit Teleports 98 squares a turn, and can bring someone along for the ride. Not fully built, so i can't judge the power Psilent Guardian Protect your allies, while being invisible. Overpowered, possibly broken Unnamed Avenger|Runepriest/Hammer of Vengance Do lot's of damage while boosting your teams. Strong to slightly overpowered. Charedent BarrageA charging ardent. Fine in a normal team, overpowered if there are 2 together, and easily broken in teams of 5. Super Knight A tough, sticky, high damage knight. Strong. Super Duper Knight Basically the same as super knight, only far more broken. Mora, the unkillable avenger Solid damage, while being neigh indestuctable. Overpowered, but not broken. Swordburst Maximus At-Will Close Burst 3 that slide and prones. Protects allies with off actions. Strong, possibly over powered with the right party.
