Hello, Ekio. I really want make use of your Avatar style character classes, even though I mostly DM the 4e games I play. However, I am having difficulty downloading the PDF files from either of the sites offered, as the connection keeps timing out. I was wondering if you could attach the PDF to an E-mail, or barring that, pull the text from it and ship it to me as a Notepad document. My e-mail address for this account is Aura.flare21@gmail.com. I would greatly appreciate it if you would kindly consider my request. Thank you again, GhostWing2010
Quickly, I am comfortable increasing the damage of the Dai Li's power, especially since using it to not knock someone out would be sorta lame by comparison. Err...
Okay. That's a lot of stuff to process and I will come back later to answer it bit by bit, but for now I wanna ask two questions:
1. What do you mean when you say:
"The generic at will bending powers of the classes are a problem. They seem at first glance like something really cool/versatile/win but when you start trying to use them they keep coming up on weird and uncomfortable limits/lack of limits."
What are the limits/lack of limits? I think the powers would be satisfying to use, and I would hate to get rid of them, though I might be willing to weaken them and then add in some of these specific powers. So you would get Bending and two Utilities based on your class. That way there would be a bunch of simple things you could do with Earthbending, which can do a lot of little things and you would have two more specific and therefore more powerful options at your disposal. But I can't start writing that until I hear more about what exactly is wrong with what we wrote already.
2. In regard to the Earthbender:
I agree, looking back there are a lot of powers that protect the Earthbender. I think CJ will agree we should change most if not all of them (I've been wrong about that before, but still). But you say preventing attacks is "less tactically useful" and I wanna understand that.
You raised a bunch of good points, I will respond to more of them soon. Also... this post, CJ are you gonna have to a be the middleman between the Forum and this friendly buddy of yours?
Oh, also, Cabbage Merchant is brewing in my head. I have ideas, I will post it soon.
-Usagi
I'm one of the minds behind the Avatar the Last Airbender 4e Project. We're about a quarter of the way through releasing the revised PDF, containing all four bender classes, paragon paths, epic destinies and a menagerie of feats and items from the show. Come by and lend your mind to the swarm.
I think Sunimasuno is my friendly Facebook friend.
I was talking to ANOTHER guy who played earthbenders a few days ago who said that he was very surprised that earthbenders didn't have a lot of stances available to them which I totally agree with. We should also utilize more powers that center on watched allies.
So... how do we wanna do this? Fixing everything, that is.
Another guy who runs an Avatar game asked me via Facebook to post this for him, as his Wizards account is broken.
OK, let me start this off with a bit of a (probably unnecessary) preface. I'm currently a handful of games into running a campaign using the rules as they currently stand. I've restricted a few things, like class selection is just 8 options (4 benders, guerrilla, rouge, fighter, warlord). The players all all benders right now, 5 players. One of each and two water benders.I've got a few years of college art school behind me. I know that seems irrelevant. But all projects end with a crit (critique) where the whole class sits in a circle and lets loose on the project. So I want to say that if i seem harsh or overly free with my opinions, that's my excuse XP.Most importantly I'm really impressed by the whole thing, the game has been a complete blast so far, and I think you did a great job. ^_^ Given that I'm kind of a judgmental so and so, that's hopefully worth something. Now, onto the crit part...
Well I'm here to hear some critisism, so it looks like we're gonna be pals.
Let's take this in sections. First, the overall rules things...
Paths/Lines - I think both of these are excellent overall ideas. They really reflect the style of avatar "magic", and after reading the blurb on them I find myself wanting them in the rest of the 4th ed world. I especially feel like lines are an exciting and meaningful part of the game. On the other hand, paths kinda aren't. Not because the idea doesn't work, but because there are VERY few of them floating around. Since the idea is so fun I would really like to see more of them.Perhaps my only real solid complaint is that they lack a type (which they desperately need) of one of: Close, Area, Ranged, or Mellee. For purposes of my game I've appended Close to all line or path attacks. Seems to be working.
I agree on both counts, more Line/Paths which are now Close attacks. Any of you disagree?
Equipment - I feel the gear is mostly pretty solid. It is obviously not enough for a full campaign, but is more than enough for a decent DM to work from to fill a whole campaign. A couple of items have minor issues of their own. The one that jumps out to me is the fire days mask. Given that there are only two path powers in the fire benders total list this items ability (which seems super cool) is actually really hard to actually use. This feels mostly like a disconnect between the items and the classes they support. Not a big one, but worth a crack at bringing together.
Right, well this is also solved by the previous fix. Also, anyone who has ideas for equipment please throw it at me. I had the most trouble with that part because I simply couldn't remember much of it and I didn't want to watch the show all over again just looking for objects.
Class Bending Powers - The generic at will bending powers of the classes are a problem. They seem at first glance like something really cool/versatile/win but when you start trying to use them they keep coming up on weird and uncomfortable limits/lack of limits. I recommend replacing them with a utility power block (ala the core books wizard) for each class.Some examples of powers I recommend in thereTorch at will * elemental, FireMinor action Ranged 5Effect: Cause a ball of fire the size of a lit torch to appear.Sustain MinorSpecial: You may move its to any other square within range as a minor action.Also, you may light a torch or other easily flammable substance with this.Also, you may move this into an opponent's square to attack them.(attack)Dex vs reflexHit: 0 dmg (plus source of strength) and the small fireball goes out.Rock Cart at will * elementalstandard action close blast 1effect: you cause the ground to rise up into the shape of a rock cart, capable of carrying friends and gear.Roll Attack roll, results determine capacity.9 or lower, 250lbs10-24 500lbs25 - 39 1000lbs40+ 2000lbs (taken from tenser's floating disk)Sustain standardSpecial; When you spend a move action to move normally you may choose to have this cart stay adjacent to you (move with you) If you do not it crumbles as soon as it is not adjacent to you.You may spend a move action to move this cart your movement in a straight line, it crumbles at the end of the move.
Also things like; Earth Tent; Warm/Cool Breeze; fish snag; stone sculpt; fire show; ghost sound(for a few of them); help/hinder swimmer; etc
Right, well as I said before, I don't fully understand what you mean by "limits/lack of limits" sooooooo, here's my idea. We tone down the generic bending powers so that they each do... one or two things. Move the element and on thing unique to the class in question (Firebenders can make a fire, Waterbenders can boil and freeze water, Earthbenders can dig and Airbenders can push or pull objects, for example), then we write up three or four very simple abilities for each class and you get to choose one at character creation. We can also, since we're reducing the overall utility of the abilities slightly, make these abilities more powerful and give them the ability to scale with level.
I also think we should consider adding in Paragon level bending At-Wills as a Class standard. Since high level bending isn't limited in the show and all. I've been looking at the Earthbender and it's got lots of utilities that need to go, I was never that attached to a lot of the Waterbender's utility and so on...
OK, now for the meat of this thing (yeah, that was just the warm up, what of it?)Classes!
Air - First off i love air benders in this book. They are definitely the best done of the classes in it, and are probably some of the better done controllers period. The focus on push/pull/slide and prone is exactly how an air bender feels like they "should" be to me, and it makes them fill their role as controllers better than so many (cough AOE wizard cough)
This one is solidly on Ekio, I have no idea how Controller's work and the Airbender is his baby.
That said, nothing is perfect. ^_^ The biggest thing I would like to see is more path powers. Especially some very long range weak impact path powers. It just seems to me that paths sum up the air bender way so very well. I would also like to see a few powers that capitalize on the air bender's mobility a bit more. Flyby attack style.
Silly detail, air benders have very few minor actions. That could probably stand to be improved.
Noted. We'll see if there are some less than exciting powers that can be dropped.
Earth - For everything good I had to say about air benders I must say ill of earth benders. These are definitely the worst of the classes in this book. So let me take a moment and triage what I feel is up with these guys.
The problems I have with the earth bender all end up boiling down to role confusion. I feel like the earth bender is too busy trying to be a bit of everyone to successfully be itself. A defender needs to do two things, and do them very well. Foremost it needs to punish opponents for attacking allies other than itself, and second it needs to live through being the one hit. The earth bender tries to do this via the earthen shield and shifting ground abilities. Unfortunately they just don't work very well for that.Both moves don't really punish, they reduce the effectiveness of the opponent's attack. While that does extend the lifespan of your allies, it isn't nearly as tactically useful. Worse still the ability can be used on yourself. This makes it function like an anti-taunt. Just what a defender never wants.Plus the earth bender powers are severely role confused. I see a lot of controller movement/terrain changing and the like. If that made the enemy focus on attacking the defender (IE movement away from the earth bender is difficult terrain) that would be cool, but often it actually makes attacking the earth bender harder. Example, force of earth gets them away from you, not a good thing. Propelling stone is likely to make you hard to hit, can be used to cover an ally, but is hard to use that way.
Mostly though I think the earth bender needs a new core mechanic that controls agro better.
Well that's a lot of problems. Like I said, we'll be changing a lot of their utilities. I also agree with the "anti-taunt" being a problem, I always felt it didn't fit. CJ suggested changing AC bonus to Con, I'm not opposed. I think there are some simple fixes here (changing defensive powers so they affect the watched allies instead).
Fire - Fire is a solid striker, and honestly may be a bit OP. I think you mixed the good of the usual striker (high damage) with a good usually reserved for the controller (AOEs) and resulted in multiplying the first in a way that isn't usually achievable. Thus far though my worries in that area have not been born out by my campaign. So I could be worried over nothing.There is one problem though. The harmonious build is stronger than the raging build. I like the mechanics for both, but the harmonious is more useful overall. I don't imagine that would be too hard to tweak together.
Personal thought on the matter. I would love to see the two builds play a little more differently, so perhaps keep the harmonious just as it is and change the raging to provide a bonus to crit chance or something similar instead of standing damage. Makes the harmonious feel reliable while the raging feels reckless. just a thought.
Noted. I agree that they have more area attacks than most strikers. I was looking at the Sorcerer when I made them and that kid makes stuff blow up, I'm not worried. I've heard critisism, but everyone so far has followed it up by saying that haven't seen it actually being a problem.
As for the Raging vs. Harmonious distinction... hrm... I can see that. You make multiple attacks and build up your Source of Strength and then burn it on one big attack. I'll think on it.
Water - I like the water as well, especially the calming build. Feels like a nice mix of different styles of support. The torrential build feels a bit too controllery too me, but it ends up playing acceptably. The flowing strike feature can be a bit hard to keep straight sometimes, but it is far from unplayable. Also, is it meant to not work on area and close attacks?
Flowing Strike is meant to be a one-on-one sort of boost that gets affected primarily by melee attacks (close attacks included). One feat gives you ranged defense too, perhaps I should add another that protects against area attacks?.
Avatar - Seems a bit OP for just a few feats. Especially changing the stats on the powers you get from other classes to your own. I really like the idea of being the ultimate multi classer, but i think it needs to be tweaked back a bit. I wondered at one point if it wouldn't do better as it's own class, with class features of its own and picking from the others power lists depending on level, but I'm not sure if that would work better or worse.
The first thing I wrote after we finished was a streamlined Avatar. I will post it soon.
-Usagi
I'm one of the minds behind the Avatar the Last Airbender 4e Project. We're about a quarter of the way through releasing the revised PDF, containing all four bender classes, paragon paths, epic destinies and a menagerie of feats and items from the show. Come by and lend your mind to the swarm.
Right, well as I said before, I don't fully understand what you mean by "limits/lack of limits" sooooooo, here's my idea. We tone down the generic bending powers so that they each do... one or two things. Move the element and on thing unique to the class in question (Firebenders can make a fire, Waterbenders can boil and freeze water, Earthbenders can dig and Airbenders can push or pull objects, for example), then we write up three or four very simple abilities for each class and you get to choose one at character creation. We can also, since we're reducing the overall utility of the abilities slightly, make these abilities more powerful and give them the ability to scale with level.
I also think we should consider adding in Paragon level bending At-Wills as a Class standard. Since high level bending isn't limited in the show and all. I've been looking at the Earthbender and it's got lots of utilities that need to go, I was never that attached to a lot of the Waterbender's utility and so on...
I like your suggestions, but feel I should respond in more depth to the limits I'm feeling.
Part of the likely source of the problem is my groups other game. We play Old World of Darkness Mage. This game has VERY open ended rules and really really rewards creative applications of powers. This has somewhat trained my players to look at open ended abilities a little more... dangerously. Some examples I've encountered so far in my game include...
-I'm a water bender and he is in water, I can just drag him down and insta kill him right?
-I can make as much water as I want "rough?" right? Wait, only 1gal worth? There's no way that's good enough for 25 sq ft...
-I seriously can't waterbend enough water from the ocean right there to put out a fire on our boat?
-I can earthbend a tool/object of any complexity I want right? Like a clock from scratch or the like?
-Can't I just create a fire in front of me with firebending for defense? According to the books rules for stepping into a campfire it's pretty deadly.
-I can just earthbend out the ground from under him, over and over again, can't I? It will either prone him or I can move him about as a minor action.
-Can't I just airbend the air out of his lungs?
-I can carry pretty much anything templar's floating disk style with earthbending right? Wait, I can't do that ever? Not even an earth cart like the show?
-How many water benders does it take to push a boat (answer is something like 15,000 someone did the math, not me)
So yeah, there's a bit better idea I hope. Also, I'm definately ok with seeing the utility bending going down, the players are warriors after all, but I would be interested in maybe making utility bending a greater option. maybe a bunch of utility bending oriented feats? Or even a multiclass branch for each bending of "Utility Bender".
Well that's a lot of problems. Like I said, we'll be changing a lot of their utilities. I also agree with the "anti-taunt" being a problem, I always felt it didn't fit. CJ suggested changing AC bonus to Con, I'm not opposed. I think there are some simple fixes here (changing defensive powers so they affect the watched allies instead).
You also asked how I didn't think the stopping attacks was quite right. In the end that comes down to tactical play. When I see effective defenders rolling around their big trick always results in them looking right at the DM and saying "You sure you wanna attack someone other than me? You really really sure?" and the DM going "Ummm... not really... but I don't wanna attack you... you can't make me... or maybe you can..." That's why I kept mentioning the whole agro control idea. While the earthbender does but a hit on the damage delt by the enemy he can't really control where it is dealt like a fighter can.
Flowing Strike is meant to be a one-on-one sort of boost that gets affected primarily by melee attacks (close attacks included). One feat gives you ranged defense too, perhaps I should add another that protects against area attacks?.
I probably would. Though I'd really like to see flowing strike move more towards the waterbender's leder role and give its bonus' to allies. Give that defender and striker some more boosts (they never seem satisfied).
Most of these are clarified directly and explicitly in the book:
pg. 3:
"Nothing you create with this technique can deal damage, serve as a weapon or tool, or hinder another creature’s action. This technique cannot duplicate the effect of any other power. (Of course, DM”s discretion.)"
-I can make as much water as I want "rough?" right? Wait, only 1gal worth? There's no way that's good enough for 25 sq ft...
This however, is correct. You can, with the base power, only control up to a gallon of water. The Superior Bending feat makes the range of the ability 5 (pretty good) but only doubles the quantity you can bend at any one time.
-I seriously can't waterbend enough water from the ocean right there to put out a fire on our boat?
This confuses me, I assume the water is not in range? If that's not the case, then it must be a quantity question. I agree, Waterbenders should be able to move enough water to put out a fire.
-I can carry pretty much anything templar's floating disk style with earthbending right? Wait, I can't do that ever? Not even an earth cart like the show?
I wholeheartedly agree. Earthbenders should definitely be able to move stuff like this. Waterbenders should be able to do it over water and so on. This will definitely go in for the rewrite.
So yeah, there's a bit better idea I hope. Also, I'm definately ok with seeing the utility bending going down, the players are warriors after all, but I would be interested in maybe making utility bending a greater option. maybe a bunch of utility bending oriented feats? Or even a multiclass branch for each bending of "Utility Bender".
What I think is more likely is there will be a generic bending power for each class, and choice of one low level specialty. Then, as you level up, you'll either get more of these powers or more powerful specialized bending, depending on what we come up with. There will, of course, be feats to enhance this, but I think we will do some work on the basic idea first.
You also asked how I didn't think the stopping attacks was quite right. In the end that comes down to tactical play. When I see effective defenders rolling around their big trick always results in them looking right at the DM and saying "You sure you wanna attack someone other than me? You really really sure?" and the DM going "Ummm... not really... but I don't wanna attack you... you can't make me... or maybe you can..." That's why I kept mentioning the whole agro control idea. While the earthbender does but a hit on the damage delt by the enemy he can't really control where it is dealt like a fighter can.
That makes sense I suppose. Although I think the Earthbender can do this to some extent by watching a certain ally. Me and Ekio are thinkin' on this one.
I probably would. Though I'd really like to see flowing strike move more towards the waterbender's leder role and give its bonus' to allies. Give that defender and striker some more boosts (they never seem satisfied).
From pg 53.
"Hit: You or one ally within range gains a +1 to all defenses against the attacking creature until the end of your next turn. Increase the bonus to +2 at 11th Level, and +3 at 21st Level.
Miss: Choose an ally within range or yourself, they gain a damage bonus to their first attack against the attacking creature equal to your Dexterity or Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn."
As you can see, both bonuses can be applied to you, or an ally. They are only triggered when you are attacked however, which is why I want to go back and make the Torrential build subtype Defender instead of subtype Controller. Most people have a little bit of a problem with the Torrential build and, honestly, we have enough Controllers *cough, cough, everythingekiowritesisacontrollercough, cough*!
Oh... err... sorry. I've got a bit of a cold. I hope that clears up the confusion. From what I can see, the powers are never too good, just a little on the weak (or at the very least uninteresting) side. I will try to fix that.
I'm one of the minds behind the Avatar the Last Airbender 4e Project. We're about a quarter of the way through releasing the revised PDF, containing all four bender classes, paragon paths, epic destinies and a menagerie of feats and items from the show. Come by and lend your mind to the swarm.
Okay, the Waterbender is my baby, so I start with her. Here's the treatment I'm thinking of giving each class:
Waterbending: You gain the Waterbending class feature and you may choose one other At-Will power with the Bending Keyword. At 11th level you may choose a second At-Will power with the Bending Keyword, at 21st level you may choose a third. These powers do not count against your standard power total.
Waterbending--Waterbender Class Feature
You have learned how to manipulate water, moving it, changing it from ice to steam, or drawing it from your surroundings.
At-Will ♦ Elemental, Bending
Minor Action, Ranged 2
Effect: You may do any one of the following: ♦ Move up to ten gallons of water from any location within range to any other location within range. ♦ Produce up to a gallon of water from moisture in the air, water in the ground or other inanimate sources. ♦ Freeze or boil up to a gallon of water within range. Special: Nothing you create with this technique can deal damage, serve as a weapon or tool, or hinder another creature’s action. This technique cannot duplicate the effect of any other power. (Of course, DM's discretion.)
Ice Bridge--Waterbender Class Feature
By carefully freezing the surface of the water, you can create a walkable surface.
At-Will ♦ Elemental, Bending
Minor Action, Path 4
Effect: Squares in this power's path that are made of water become frozen and may be walked on until the end of your next turn.
Wave Motor--Waterbender Class Feature
With a repetitive pushing motion you can move through a body of water very quickly.
At-Will ♦ Elemental, Bending
Minor Action, Close Burst 1
Effect: You and friendly creatures within the burst move your speed. Creatures affected this way must end this movement adjacent to you.
Special: This power only affects creatures submerged in water or standing on a mobile platform in water.
More to come, obviously only if people think this is a good idea.
I'm one of the minds behind the Avatar the Last Airbender 4e Project. We're about a quarter of the way through releasing the revised PDF, containing all four bender classes, paragon paths, epic destinies and a menagerie of feats and items from the show. Come by and lend your mind to the swarm.
I really don't think they're necessary. I think the utility powers throughout the classes would be good enough. If we really need to, we can go back and make the utility powers more... bender-y?
We should, at the very least, provide some more distinctions between the different bender's powers. Right now they are all about the same. This is just one possible solution to that, one that allows for a space to put in other ideas later (i.e. homebrew alternatives to these mini-utilities so that player's can really customize what kind of bending they do). I really like the idea of putting a little more emphasis on each characters bending skills.
One choice that we should certainly consider is just making it standard that all the Bender classes get at least one At-Will utility at every Utility level. That would be sort of half-way between this idea and what we have already. If that were the case, the powers would be more powerful too. Not a bad thing.
-Usagi
I'm one of the minds behind the Avatar the Last Airbender 4e Project. We're about a quarter of the way through releasing the revised PDF, containing all four bender classes, paragon paths, epic destinies and a menagerie of feats and items from the show. Come by and lend your mind to the swarm.
