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2 years ago ::
Dec 12, 2010 - 4:14PM
#51
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I'm not rating it vs. the Ranger to begin with.
Sorry, that was towards the other guy.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 12, 2010 - 4:34PM
#52
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I know. I'm just reiterating my point that trying to rate things vs. the Ranger is generally a flawed premise and unhelpful argument.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 12, 2010 - 4:36PM
#53
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...and what feature of the Sorcerer class is it, praytell, that makes it more suited for a social role than any other character of equivalent CHA? (Hint: the answer is "None, I'm mounting completely irrelevant arguments because I do not understand the principles being argued over.") The fact that you roleplayed your sorcerer well is utterly immaterial to the mechanical design of the sorcerer.
He was arguing against the person that said something along the lines of "sorcerers aren't all that useful in non-combat scenarios because they don't have wizard or invoker stuffs."
Now if you have some comments on why and how you believe the Sorcerer can fill an essential niche in the game, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, your participation in this discussion boils down to plugging your ears and going "LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!", and is unhelpful to all involved.
I'm going to have to ask what do you mean and how do you define essential niche? Hopefully with a little less snark than how you replied to the one before.
"In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and has been widely regarded as a bad move."-Douglas Adams
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2 years ago ::
Dec 12, 2010 - 5:01PM
#54
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Date Joined:
Mar 27, 2004
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Look, dropping the term "Optimizer" like it's a four letter word is just insulting.
How about the term Munchkin, is that one easier to swallow than Optimizer?
Terms you should know... Spoiler:
Show
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
ha ha
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They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks.
* Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank.
* Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture.
* Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things.
* Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
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2 years ago ::
Dec 12, 2010 - 5:07PM
#55
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He was arguing against the person that said something along the lines of "sorcerers aren't all that useful in non-combat scenarios because they don't have wizard or invoker stuffs."
No, what I said was that Sorcerers have no non-combat-related class features, making the idea that they are meant to be something other than an immolation-based class absurd, and therefore rendering the argument that their lackingness in that department is balanced out by out-of-combat utility invalid even to people who accept the idea of "spotlight balance".
I'm going to have to ask what do you mean and how do you define essential niche? Hopefully with a little less snark than how you replied to the one before.
It's the combination of two questions:
1. does this class do something better than any other class? (this is the "having a niche" part)
2. does the thing this class do best actually come up in the average encounter set? (this is the "essential" part)
Put less abstractly, I've already mounted the argument as to why "multi-target pure striker" is not an essential niche and why the Sorcerer doesn't do it better than several other classes to start with, and it appears there is general agreement with that argument. I am effectively asking if there's something else they can do best that I'm overlooking.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 12, 2010 - 5:35PM
#56
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Date Joined:
Jun 26, 2009
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Boy howdy granting allies at-will flight with one utility power sure isn't handy outside of combat. And DEX sorcerers definitely can't pick up thievery with a background or multiclass they'd of wanted in the first place anyhow.
You know what else definitely isn't useful outside of combat? Being a CHA primary class that can train in intimidate bluff and diplomacy.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 12, 2010 - 5:59PM
#57
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Date Joined:
Aug 31, 2009
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Boy howdy granting allies at-will flight with one utility power sure isn't handy outside of combat. And DEX sorcerers definitely can't pick up thievery with a background or multiclass they'd of wanted in the first place anyhow.
You know what else definitely isn't useful outside of combat? Being a CHA primary class that can train in intimidate bluff and diplomacy.
The point is, LOTS of classes have utilities that are useful outside of combat. Some classes can train thievery WITHOUT having a specific background or MC. And lots of classes are CHA-based, or can have high CHA and train in those same social skills, some of them with significant advantages in the form of powers or class features.
The argument isn't that sorcerers suck and can't do anything. The argument is there's nothing they can do that another class can't do better. That's what underpowered means in the context of D&D classes.
Pointing out the flaws doesn't equate to hating on the sorcerer. In fact, it's probably the best way to ensure that they get more goodies in the future. The majority of people on both sides of this argument really like sorcerers. The 'optimizers' are just saying they wish sorcerers had a bit more mechanical oomph so that they're not shown up by rogues, rangers, and the like.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 12, 2010 - 6:04PM
#58
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Date Joined:
Jun 26, 2009
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Rangers and rogues have no specific mechanics which function to benefit roleplaying portions of the game. What, do you prime shot the door open? Or maybe you rogue weapon talent the king into aiding you on your mission? This argument is ridiculous and I've sure as Hell never heard of rogues or rangers granting at-will flight to allies.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 12, 2010 - 6:08PM
#59
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Date Joined:
May 17, 2009
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Look, dropping the term "Optimizer" like it's a four letter word is just insulting.
How about the term Munchkin, is that one easier to swallow than Optimizer?
Well, the insulting part isn't the word, its the assumption that discussion about the relative power levels of different classes and/or actually enjoying having a mechanically effective character is somehow bad, wrong, or at least a waste of time and effort.
So, no, changing to a word that generally carries even more negative consequences is not going to help anything.
Seriously, though, you should check out the PbP Haven. You might also like Real Adventures, IF you're cool. | Knights of W.T.F.- Silver Spur Winner | |
4enclave, a place where 4e fans can talk 4e in peace.
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2 years ago ::
Dec 12, 2010 - 6:16PM
#60
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The sorc is one of the few classes that gets grief in this edition because it is one of the few classes that has another class that can be nearly as dangerous in the genasi wizard. That one build is used to compare how you can make a sorc without a sorc. About every other striker gets the respect they deserve (oustside of the original assassin). The sorc current problem is a lack of qualtiy paragon paths and like many classes could use some more feats and powers, especially non standard action powers which would really help.
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