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2 years ago ::
Jan 02, 2011 - 8:54PM
#551
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Date Joined:
Sep 21, 2006
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I still say that the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer is excess. Sorcs need to just have more spells. They should be able to drop wave after wave-but may not have as impressive individual effects.
But to that extent, I think multi-target striker is kind of bankrupt. They should be reflavored into a controller.
fwiw the sorc in my paragon LFR crew (I'd say party, but it's LFR so people come and go) could not be adequately replaced by a well optimized ranger. His -total- DPR so far outstrips a ranger's that we would be in a lot more trouble a lot more frequently trying to deal with the extra rounds it would take the ranger to deal with things.
I appreciate the value of focus fire in general, but taking out one target per round depletes the usefulness of my own AOEs (which between those and mutlitarget melee attacks) are pretty much my swordmage's whole reportoire, as well as things like my bloodcut armor which are great when there are a lot of enemies attacking me but outright bad against only one or two. (Plus as a swordmage my damage output isn't that great.)
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To address the specific question of more spells: When essentials came out, especially comparing against the question of psionics, I came to the idea that I would have preferred that they had come up with new powers that could fit into non-matching slots. What I mean is for example encounter powers, or even ongoing traits (i.e. class features, though they could be statted as free/no action at-wills) that can be taken in the place of a daily of the appropriate level. Using that approach perhaps say a sorc would get a bunch of new encounter powers that take up daily power slots and wizards would get a bunch of new daily powers that take up encounter power slots. You could chose in power selection how far to go either way. Maybe martial characters would get at-will power-augments of some kind that would take the place of their dailies.
Basically free up the concept of what can go into a slot. And by so doing they could be inherently swappable within the existing MC/hybrid framework. Instead of, you know, creating a set of subclasses that are largely to completely incompatable with existing multiclass systems (both of them).
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2 years ago ::
Jan 02, 2011 - 9:11PM
#552
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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I still say that the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer is excess. Sorcs need to just have more spells. They should be able to drop wave after wave-but may not have as impressive individual effects.
This is one of the things that moving away from Vancian spellcasting was designed to get rid of, was it not?
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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2 years ago ::
Jan 02, 2011 - 10:38PM
#553
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Date Joined:
Dec 16, 2007
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I still say that the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer is excess. Sorcs need to just have more spells. They should be able to drop wave after wave-but may not have as impressive individual effects.
This is one of the things that moving away from Vancian spellcasting was designed to get rid of, was it not?
What move? Still have daily and magic item daily powers which are your mainstay. With the reserve feats in 3E you had your 4E at wills which you could do round after round ad nausem. The only thing that got added to the "basic" spell casters ala wizard/sorc/wu jen/cleric/druid/fvs/shukenja was the "rest 5 minutes encounter power" mechanic from the Factotum which isn't really any less vancian, it just shortens the rest period so you can keep things simpler with fewer powers.
I don't make the rules, I just think them up and write them down. - Eric Cartman
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2 years ago ::
Jan 02, 2011 - 10:54PM
#554
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I was reading the 4e preview book just a few minutes ago. The little blurb about the sorcerer described a caster overflowing with magical energy. They cast an ice spell, and frost coalesces around them, making some sort of ice armor or forst aura. They shock you with lightning, and then for another round they are actually electrified, zapping anyone who touches them or gets too close.
The problem with the above approach is, it guarantees the Sorcerer will get subpar powers plus silly little nuissances to keep track of. Likely, it would damn the Sorcerer as a subpar class.
Its more effective to have clean and simple powers.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 02, 2011 - 11:07PM
#555
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2006
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@ Hal
What?
Thats not neccesarily true, you could get decent powers with nice encounter long bumps, its all just in how well its written.
Using wizard as an example, Icy grasp is a great spell. I has a decent intro and keeps on giving. There could be something like that written for Sorcerers.
The essential theme song-
Get a little bit a fluff da' fluff, get a little bit a fluff da' fluff! (ooh yeah) Repeat
Unless noted otherwise every thing I post is my opinion, and probably should be taken as tongue in cheek any way.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 02, 2011 - 11:14PM
#556
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More likely than not, the 'nicknacks design' means it will never deal high-end damage, getting nonsense instead of damage dealing powers.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2011 - 1:28AM
#557
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Yes, and you do enough damage to kill yourself after the second hit(or you're not doing enough to justify using it over a regular action).
Yes, because there's absolutely no way to avoid taking the full damage...
/eyeroll
If you do it right, you basically guarantee you take 1 point of damage each time you breath, of your own element, recharging the power.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2011 - 1:37AM
#558
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But to that extent, I think multi-target striker is kind of bankrupt. They should be reflavored into a controller.
You are free to your opinion that AOE striking isn't a good idea - so don't play a sorcerer. Those of us that think that AOE striking is a very viable option will play one.
I still say that the difference between a wizard and a sorcerer is excess. Sorcs need to just have more spells. They should be able to drop wave after wave-but may not have as impressive individual effects.
This is one of the things that moving away from Vancian spellcasting was designed to get rid of, was it not?
Which was one of the big mistakes of 4e - they limited powers far too drastically.
Sure - tracking the 50 to 80 spells on the spell list of a high level Vancian caster in 3e was probably a too complicated for casual players. 3e Sorcerers satisfied that niche very nicely, with only 20 spells known or so. This was considered simple mode for players.
By contrast, all characters in 4e have about a dozen powers all told, including at-wills. The design of the system is optimized for 3rd graders with ADD. While it would be nice for sorcerers to have twice as many encounter powers as the other classes, this would cause WOTC's collective brain to explode, which has been moving (in essentials) to even further dumbing down ("streamlining") the system.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2011 - 6:38AM
#559
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It's not that it's a bad idea-it's that it's redundant.
The fact that the Wizard can be a functional class by using nothing but multi-target damage powers means that the concept of a character that deals damage to multiple targets is a controller concept. If the sorcerer does more damage to the same number of targets, he's just a more powerful controller. If he does more damage to less targets, then he's basically just a single target striker with some multi-target riders, or a limited use controller.
I like the idea of sorcerers as multi-target direct damage. I don't like the idea of using multi-target direct damage when controllers exist. Either get rid of the controller role, or get rid of the multi-target striker role.
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2 years ago ::
Jan 03, 2011 - 10:59AM
#560
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2006
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Yeah, I think that the sorcerer should have been a arcane/elemental controller instead of a striker, just because, according to their own guidelines AoE/ multitarget is a controlers domain.
In any case, I'm not too hung up on in. at the end of the day the sorc will do as the sorc will do, and although I'd like the developers to stick within their roles more its also refreshing to see those roles evolve.
The essential theme song-
Get a little bit a fluff da' fluff, get a little bit a fluff da' fluff! (ooh yeah) Repeat
Unless noted otherwise every thing I post is my opinion, and probably should be taken as tongue in cheek any way.
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