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3 years ago ::
Dec 14, 2010 - 10:29AM
#71
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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True, but if you take the position that RBAs are by definition ranged, then you probably wouldn't accept that Acid Orb used with SBC can function as an RBA. I don't take that position myself, but I doubt you can use Acid Orb as a convincing argument either way on the question.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 14, 2010 - 10:32AM
#72
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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Meaning that if you're granted a RBA by an eagle shaman, you wouldn't be able to use the SBC-version. More importantly, though, that if you're granted a MBA, you would be able to use Acid Orb.
The notion of "ranged" and "melee" being requirements descriptors rather than describing distinct sets of basic attacks I think is a good one, generally, from a systems perspective.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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3 years ago ::
Dec 14, 2010 - 10:40AM
#73
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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... More importantly, though, that if you're granted a MBA, you would be able to use Acid Orb.
Actually, that's a separate issue. Acid Orb says it's an RBA. You could argue that when used as a melee attack, it can't function as an RBA, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it does function as an MBA.
The notion of "ranged" and "melee" being requirements descriptors rather than describing distinct sets of basic attacks I think is a good one, generally, from a systems perspective.
I would agree except that I kind of like leaving room for area and close attacks to work.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 14, 2010 - 10:41AM
#74
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Both rules you (@plague) cite say that when a power lets you make a basic attack, you can make either an MBA or an RBA. But when a power says you can make an MBA, you must make an MBA.
In this case, we have a power (Commander's Strike) that allows you to make an MBA. We have (in effect) a rider saying that Divine Bolts is a basic attack. There is nothing in the rules to indicate that Divine Bolts an MBA, therefore you cannot use it with Commander's Strike.
If another power let you make an unrestricted basic attack (Direct the Strike, say), then you could use Divine Bolts with that.
Well, what is the deal of having a power that can be used as a BA if you cant used it when someone command you to do a BA. BA either is a melee or ranged attack if none is specified.
The Rule i pointed specifically adress this. For Divine Bolts, not Commanders Strike...i think i see why you read it that way.
Lets transposes:
When Divine Bolts (a power or other effect) allow a creature to make a basic attack (it is with Power of Skill), the creature can make either a melee basic attack or a ranged basic attack. If Divine Bolts (the power or other effect) specifically calls for a melee basic attack or a raged basic attack, the creature must use that type.
Could it be argued that Divine Bolt does not let you make a RB ?
If one was to Commander Strike an Invoker into making a MBA, there is no Rule that would prevent it from doing so if he had Divine Bolts/Power of Skill or any other Powers that can be used as a basic attack. These are the points in having them do so in the first place, since they donèt count as one but only can be used as one.
Yes Commanders Strike demands expressely a melee basic attack. But Using either of these powers is usually refer to as making a basic attack..
A basic attack is any of the two.
A bonus to Savint throw is for any of the two (regular and Death Saving Throw)
Can be used as a basic attack means nothing if not any of the two. There is no basic attack power.
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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3 years ago ::
Dec 14, 2010 - 10:43AM
#75
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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... More importantly, though, that if you're granted a MBA, you would be able to use Acid Orb.
Actually, that's a separate issue. Acid Orb says it's an RBA. You could argue that when used as a melee attack, it can't function as an RBA, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it does function as an MBA.
The notion of "ranged" and "melee" being requirements descriptors rather than describing distinct sets of basic attacks I think is a good one, generally, from a systems perspective.
I would agree except that I kind of like leaving room for area and close attacks to work.
As soon as you say the X in XBA is only a reference to the range of the power, you open up the possibility for CBA and ABA without any problem.
As far as acid orb, if you take the position that RBAs are by definition ranged, then the "ranged" part of the Special line isn't functional, which was my point. All such lines simply become basic attacks.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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3 years ago ::
Dec 14, 2010 - 10:46AM
#76
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Date Joined:
Jun 10, 2002
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Lets transposes:
When Divine Bolts (a power or other effect) allow a creature to make a basic attack (it is with Power of Skill), the creature can make either a melee basic attack or a ranged basic attack. If Divine Bolts (the power or other effect) specifically calls for a melee basic attack or a raged basic attack, the creature must use that type.
Divine Bolts isn't a power or other effect allowing you to make a basic attack with Power of Skill.
It is a power or other effect that is allowed to be used as a basic attack with Power of Skill.
As such, the rule for powers or other effects allowing you to make a basic attack has nothing to do with Divine Bolts as modified by Power of Skill.
Edit: And yes, as written, you cannot use Divine Bolts when a power grants you an Ranged Basic Attack either. You can only use it when a power of effect allows you to make a Basic Attack, not a Ranged Basic Attack or a Melee Basic Attack. This is also true for Valiant Strike, Overwhelming Strike and Righteous Brand as modified by Power of skill ... they cannot be used with Commander's Strike or anything else that specifically grants a Melee Basic Attack. Nor can they be used with Opportunity Attacks (because that is specifically a Melee Basic Attack).
Power of Skill isn't overpowered for Divine Bolts as written ... it is practically useless for the other powers.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 14, 2010 - 10:52AM
#77
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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choosing the target of the charge and choosing the target of the basic attack at the end of the charge aren't the same thing. They usually are, but exceptions like this arise.
In the order of operations for a charge, you have to choose the target you charge first in order to properly evaluate the movement you take to get there. You choose the targets of the attack you make when you roll to resolve the use of the attack power, the only strictures in place being that the attack qualifies as being a MBA (regardless of how it manages to gain that designation) and that the attack includes the target of the charge.
If the power allows picking targets, you pick them when you use the power, not when you declare the charge. As long as the charger doesn't try to jank it up by switching the primary target to a creature other than the designated charge victim, you can pick any other legal targets available as allowed by the attack power.
No you select it first, and make the MBA against it specifically. As for any other Powers i mentioned. If a Trigger or action letyou target and attack that enemy, even if you could multi attack with it, you will not multi target, unless the target in included in the attack, like an AoE. If you have Twin Strike and Heavy Blade Opportunity, you cannot attack me because i provoked an OA, and my ally because he is adjacent and you have a second attack. If the Target line of a Power does not incode him, he should not be attacked. Except like i said, in the case pf secondary target/secondary attack. This has to do with Making An Attack Steps which ask to 1. pick a Power 2. Choose Targets 3. Attack 4. Compare roll to Defense 5. Deal damage and finally 6. Repeat Steps 3 through 5 if the attack power has more than one target.
RC 246 Opportunity Attack Target: The Triggerring enemy
RC 240 Charge: When a creature takes this action, it chooses a target......the creature makes either a mlee basic attack against the target, or a bullrush against it.
MP II 83 Direct the Strike: The target makes a basic attack as a free action against an enemy of your choice that you can see and is within 10 squares of you.
PHB 145 Commanders Strike: An ally of your choice makes a melee basic attack against the target
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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3 years ago ::
Dec 14, 2010 - 11:01AM
#78
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Date Joined:
May 12, 2009
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Lets transposes:
When Divine Bolts (a power or other effect) allow a creature to make a basic attack (it is with Power of Skill), the creature can make either a melee basic attack or a ranged basic attack. If Divine Bolts (the power or other effect) specifically calls for a melee basic attack or a raged basic attack, the creature must use that type.
Divine Bolts isn't a power or other effect allowing you to make a basic attack with Power of Skill.
It is a power or other effect that is allowed to be used as a basic attack with Power of Skill.
As such, the rule for powers or other effects allowing you to make a basic attack has nothing to do with Divine Bolts as modified by Power of Skill.
Edit: And yes, as written, you cannot use Divine Bolts when a power grants you an Ranged Basic Attack either. You can only use it when a power of effect allows you to make a Basic Attack, not a Ranged Basic Attack or a Melee Basic Attack. This is also true for Valiant Strike, Overwhelming Strike and Righteous Brand as modified by Power of skill ... they cannot be used with Commander's Strike or anything else that specifically grants a Melee Basic Attack. Nor can they be used with Opportunity Attacks (because that is specifically a Melee Basic Attack).
Power of Skill isn't overpowered for Divine Bolts as written ... it is practically useless for the other powers.
What is your definition of being able to use a power as a basic attack.
It means that you can make an attack with it as a basic attack. When used as such, it can be used to either make a ranged basic attack, or a melee basic attack, since none is specified. If something ask you to make a basic attack, either a melee or ranged, you will be able to use it.
Geez, for all the Feats, Powers, and whatsnot giving bonus to basic attacks, your are not given more precision, you will imply that they dont benefit any of them ? They will benefits both.
Ex. You gain a +1 to attack rolls when making basic attacks.
OR
Feyborn Stratagem
Paragon Tier
Prerequisite: 11th level, gnome, warlord
Benefit: While you are hidden from an enemy, your allies have combat advantage against that enemy when they make basic attacks granted by your warlord powers
Yan
Montréal, Canada
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3 years ago ::
Dec 14, 2010 - 11:02AM
#79
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2004
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When Divine Bolts (a power or other effect) allow a creature to make a basic attack (it is with Power of Skill), the creature can make either a melee basic attack or a ranged basic attack. If Divine Bolts (the power or other effect) specifically calls for a melee basic attack or a raged basic attack, the creature must use that type.
Plague, this could be a case of something getting a little lost in translation. What you've written here looks pretty nonsensical to me... as Fitz said, Divine Bolts does not "allow a creature to make a basic attack," leaving aside any debate about what kind of basic attack it is. Due to Power of Skill, DB is a basic attack, but it doesn't by any stretch grant a basic attack.
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3 years ago ::
Dec 14, 2010 - 11:11AM
#80
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Date Joined:
Jun 17, 2010
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What Jaelis said. Plague, you're applying a rule to something that you shouldn't.
The rule you're trying to apply would apply to Direct the Strike and Commander's Strike, where the Warlord uses his action and allows someone else to make a basic attack. What kind of basic attack is up to them when they use Direct the Strike, but the power (Commander's Strike) calls for a MBA so they must use that type.
This rule has absolutely zero application to the feat Power of Skill.
D&D Next = D&D: Quantum Edition
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