Eh, I'm fine with leaving it as Hexblade for the time being. Given that we're going to be overlapping with WotC's material anyways (once the Shadow book comes out), overlap with official material doesn't bother me at all. The Hexblade name fits better with the Shadow source than just on a Warlock anyways (especially when the Warlock build in question loses the Curse - the thing that made it a good fit at all for the original Hexblade concept! Wrar! I rant! ).
And I got some ideas banging around in my head, so I'm going to write them down.
[snip]
I didn't read your Witch stuff very hard, so I'm skipping it for the time being.
Hexblade
I, too, think we can easily go with a "standard" curse, modified by Daily powers. I don't know about the healing surge thing at the moment - maybe expand on what you're thinking of?
I agree with your marking power on the following points:
An at-a-distance mark. While I like Close burst for it, I think we may need to reign it in a bit, down to Close burst 5 (at least as a default).
Minor Action.
Affected by (some?) daily powers.
I'm... less supportive of:
(Save Ends). For something that's going to be active all of the time, I think it's just too much extra book-keeping. It may be a viable alternative to limiting the number of marked targets in some manner, but on an at-will, minor action class feature, it just seems inappropriate. Maybe save the (Save Ends) aspects for daily powers somewhere.
A "naked" defender's mark. It needs something else, besides the attack penalty, as a mark effect / punishment effect. I don't know if you had a punishment planned, and didn't include it yet, or what - but it's going to need something beyond that naked mark.
The healing surge use. I'm not sure if it's the specific example you used, or the idea as a whole, but it doesn't sit well with me either. I'm not sure how it's being used thematically, and I don't know if it's a good idea mechanically.
I think it may be a good idea to go the Vestige-pact route - have a default effect for the mark (beyond the naked Marked status), and have Daily powers alter / supercede that default effect.
Maybe have the effect linked to the builds? Just some random brainstorming here, but maybe something like (but with better names...): Cursed to Fall: When the target hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target, it takes a penalty to all defenses equal to one-half your Intelligence modifier until the end of your next turn. Cursed to Fail: When the target hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target, it is slowed and takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to one-half your Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn.
Meh. Brainstorming though, right?
You make a good point regarding the save ends bit. All right, we'll drop that. I'm also willing to cut back on the range and drop the healing surge bit. I wasn't very set on that idea either - I just remember seeing someone throw it out there, and I wanted to give it a shot - see how it worked with the stuff I was more set on. As for "naked mark" - that's not what I wrote. The "naked" hex punishment is (for now) combat advantage and a -2 penalty to saves for one turn.
I've had today to think about the necromancer, and here's what I propose:
- the two builds should distinguish between a user of many minions and a user of a few, more elite, undead horrors. The hoardemaster should be an Int-secondary, because it takes a fair amount of tactical cunning to properly manage an entire army. The corpse crafter should be Con secondary - given the same starting materials, a corpse crafter will make a more vicious undead by investing some of their very life force into their creation. I'll support Cha as the primary, because it takes a strong force of personality and sense of self to create and command legions of the undead. It takes willpower to command them, and (at least in some settings), a strong identity to not go mad from learning these secrets best left unknown.
- an at-will feature summons minions. These minions are conjurations that can be attacked, but they lack hit points. If an attack hits (use your defenses), the minion dies. However we approach it, minions should be expendable, and (relatively) easy to replace, but you're better off having many minions in place, so there's still some incentive to keep them around. Here's one idea: the at-will summons creates a single undead minion, and there's also an encounter feature to summon several at once. I am against there being a "sustain: minor" to these minions. I propose we borrow a page from druid summons and the instinctive effect. The minions have an aura 1. At the end of your turn, any minions that you did not command deal X damage to one creature in the aura. X should be a small amount - like 2 to start off. But it should still grow with time, so it's not so worthless in paragon and epic tiers. How does 1/2 Cha sound? It will only be 1 or 2 at level 1, and it can grow with time. Maybe change it to 1/2 Cha +2 at 11th and full Cha at 21st? Or something. Small, and not really key to the class, but enough to make them still meaningful on a turn you don't use them.
- Speaking of which, powers. For horde-type attacks, the power should be set up as Effect: Each of your minions makes the following attack: Melee 1: Cha +2 vs AC. Hit: 1d8+Cha damage. For weaker powers, it might be Effect: one or two (or three) of your minions makes the following attack. Other powers might be something like this: Immediate Reaction: one of your minions dies. Effect: make the following attack that is close burst 1 centered on the minion. Powers of this sort can take a cue from the warrior forge artificer - they augment your minions. They should be key to the corpse crafter build. The hoardemaster, meanwhile, should probably get a few extra summons, because the build assumes you burn through them faster. Here's something, maybe lots of hordemaster powers are "all of your minions attack" while corpse crafter is "a few of your minions attack," but each of those individual attacks is stronger? I'm also going to say that attacks should stack. So if you have three skeletons surrounding a dragon and you use a power that makes all of your minions attack, you can make three attacks against the dragon, rather than only getting in one attack. It feels much more hordemaster-y
- there should be some non-undead attacks - spewing curses and summoning plagues, that sort of thing. It's the main reason I suggest undead minions get a damage aura. It represents you being able to provide support fire while your army still attacks.
So, here's a first attempt to show off what I'm talking about:
Summon Undead (At-Will) * Conjuration, Shadow Minor Action * Close burst 10 Effect: You conjure one undead minion within range. The minion occupies a square and lasts until the end of the encounter. The minion can be attacked. It uses your defenses, and it is destroyed if hit. As a move action, you can move all of your minions up to half your speed. Each minion has an aura 1. At the end of your turn, each minion you did not give any commands attacks one enemy in the aura, dealing damage equal to 1/2 your Cha modifier. Increase damage to 1/2 Cha + 2 at 11th level and Cha modifier at 21st level.
Drawing inspiration from a previous thread I've seen, I'm not limiting it 1/turn. This way, if you really want to, you can keep summoning. Sure, you could place 3 minions in one turn. But then you need to action point for it to actually be worth something that turn.
Summon Horde (Encounter) * Conjuration, Shadow Minor Action * Close burst 10 Effect: You conjure 4 undead minions, as the summon undead class feature.
[Feature Name]: Choose 1 of the following Hoarde Master: When you use your Summon Horde power, you instead conjure a number of minions equal to 2+your Int mod (minimum 4). Corpse Crafter: Increase the defenses of your minions and summoned allies by 1. In addition, you can use your Con mod in place of Dex or Int for AC.
The second line in corpse crafter is necessary, to make sure your zombies and such keep a competitive armor class. And I'm not sure about horde master. For now, it's a placeholder. Alternatively, it could be "Once per turn, when you use summon undead, you instead conjure two undead minions." Also, for feat ideas, I'd say corpse crafter could get a "minion gets a save to not die" - very much reflects better made minions. And I'd say horde master should get a power or two that summons more skeletons as part of the attack/utility. Other feats might specify your type of undead - skeletons are faster, zombies might be the save to not die, etc.
And now for some power examples:
Army of the Dead (At-Will) * Shadow Standard Action * Close burst 10 Effect: Each of your minions makes the following attack, which is Melee 1. Cha+2 vs AC Hit: Cha mod damage.
Opportunistic Minion (At-Will) * Shadow Opportunity Action * Close burst 10 Trigger: An enemy takes an action that would provoke an opportunity attack while adjacent to a minion. Effect: The triggering minion makes the following attack against the triggering enemy, which is Melee 1. Cha+2 vs AC Hit: 1d8+Cha damage. Increase to 2d8+Cha at 21st level.
And one question: what do you think of making it "the triggering minion(s)"? This way, if you have more than one minion that could make an opportunity attack against the triggering enemy, they both can.
I'm liking the way this class is feeling right now - it allows the necromancer to adapt roles a little bit: you can spread your minions out for wide control, or you could concentrate them on one foe and be an off-striker.
Grasping Horde (Encounter) * Shadow Standard Action * Close burst 10 Effect: up to 3 of your minions can make the following attack, which is melee 1. Cha vs Ref Hit: 1d8 + Cha damage, and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn. Special: If an enemy is hit at least twice with this attack, it is instead immobilized until the end of your next turn. Hordemaster: The number of minions that can make this attack instead equals 1+Int mod.
Vicious Horde (Daily) * Shadow Standard Action * Close burst 10 Effect: Until the end of the encounter, whenever one of of your minions is destroyed, it can make the following attack as a free action. Cha vs ??? Hit: 2d6+Cha damage.
Another power like Vicious Horde may increase the damage aura of your non-attacking minions. Higher level ones may daze, blind, or add ongoing damage when destroyed.
I'd like to toss my hat into the ring, if I may? I agree with nearly everything here... and what I don't agree with is likely just nitpicking.
For example, when I was trying on my own, I'd found I'd preferred the name Duskblade to Hexblade, for whatever reason. I had it as Charisma primary, Strength or Intelligence secondary. The one to be Striker-lite and go in heavy armor with a two-handed weapon, enforcing his mark with strength of arm, and the other to go light armor sword-and-board, a kite that prevents his mark from hitting his allies and rubs salt in the wound when they miss.
My opinion of it, anyway. I think I'd just appreciate having a hand in the pot at this point.
And, for further input, on the Necromancer: Scythes as an implement option? Seems appropriate, if it's insisted that they have some use for them. The reaper's scythe and staves of bone to channel the powers of darkness and decay~
EDIT: Memo to me, check wiki links before doing that.
I put up my ideas for a Necro on the wiki. See what you guys think about it. I am interested in the idea of a scythe implement; perhaps offering a couple powers per level that are melee focused, playing off the melee controller angle?
A few ideas for powers, while I'm at it.
EDIT: Added a few more powers and fixed some of the previous ones.
You slice your scythe into your enemy, harvesting its lifeblood for your allies.
At-Will ♦ Necrotic, Implement, Shadow
Standard Action - Melee Weapon
Target: One or two creatures
Attack: Charisma vs. Reflex
Hit: Charisma modifier damage and the target takes a -2 penalty to reflex, fortitude, and will until the end of your next turn.
Level 21: 1d6 + Charisma modifier. Weapon: If you use this power with a scythe, sickle, scimitar, or khopesh, the penalty instead equals 1/2 your Constitution modifier.
Exploding Minion
Necromancer Attack 1
You destbilize your own minion, causing it to explode and shower your foes with gore.
At-Will ♦ Necrotic, Implement, Shadow
Standard Action - Area Burst 1 centered on one of your minions within 10 squares.
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Charisma vs. burst
Hit: 1d8 + Charisma modifier damage and the target gains vulnerability to necrotic damage until the end of your next turn. The vulnerability equals your Constitution modifier. Effect: Target minion is reduced to 0 hit points.
Level 21: 2d8 + Charisma modifier damage
Dead Man's Grin
You infect your enemy's mind with a pestilence that makes it see its comrades as leering spectres of death.
Hit: 2d6 + Charisma modifier poison and psychic damaqe. Until the end of your next turn, your enemies provoke opportunity attacks from the target, and it must make any opportunity attack provoked by its allies.
Dread Whirlwind Dread Whirlwind Encounter ♦ Implement, Shadow Standard Action - Close Burst 1 Target: Creatures in burst Attack: Intelligence vs. Reflex Hit: Ongoing 5 damage (save ends) and the target is weakened and slowed until the end of your next turn. Leader of the Dead: If you use this power with a scythe, a sickle, a scimitar, or a khopesh, the ongoing damage increases by 5.
Blizzard of Letherna
Necromancer Daily 9
You call up the howling winds of death to imprison your enemies and sap their vitality. Even if they avoid being locked in ice, the bitter winds will still torment them.
Daily ♦ Cold, Implement, Shadow
Standard Action - Area Burst 1 within 10
Target: Each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence vs. Fortitude
Hit: 1d10 + Intelligence modifier cold damage and the target is restrained and weakened (save ends both).
Miss: 3d6 + intelligence modifier cold damage and the target is slowed until the end of your next turn.
Summon Horde Ghoul
Necromancer Daily 5
You raise a small army of ravenous undead to devour your foes.
Daily ♦ Necrotic, Implement, Summoning, Shadow
Minor Action - Close Burst 10
Effect: You summon up to four horde ghouls in unoccupied squares within range. Each has a speed of 6, and you may command all ghouls to move their speed as a move action. You may take a standard action to command each of the ghouls to make an attack. It may use the following special commands.
Standard Action (melee basic attack): Melee 1; Charisma vs. Fortitude; Charisma modifier damage and the target is slowed. The target takes 2 extra damage for each horde ghoul adjacent to it. Opportunity Action: Same as above. Instinctive Effect: On any turn in which you have not given commands to one or more horde ghouls, the remaining ghouls will make their standard action attack against the nearest creature, or charge the nearest creature.
I put up my ideas for a Necro on the wiki. See what you guys think about it. I am interested in the idea of a scythe implement; perhaps offering a couple powers per level that are melee focused, playing off the melee controller angle?
Y'know, I'm not a huge fan of the weapon-using Necromancer... but really, why the hell not? The idea works, and it would be an interesting option.
Hey, I'll join in when I got the time. I don't know if you guys care, but I built a shadow defender that I called the Blackguard that's name could easily be changed. It's already through all levels as well. I still have some editing to do (as it has changed a lot over time). Here's the link: community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/758...
Hope you like it.
Oh, and thanks to Chameleon-x and Anubis Dread for help with it as well as LDB and Krusk.
I really like the idea of the Necromancer using a select bunch of weapons as implements - scythe, sickel, khopesh, flails in general, have all been associated at times with death and dying.
I'm still fiddling about with ideas for a ranged shadow defender, probably built around whips and scourges as implements for powers dealing in shadow-swapping and veiling, possibly with a choice between a single-ally defensive mark and a more traditional defender-style mark, and heavy shades of more traditional controller with some of the powers.
I'll post more if and when I have something more solid to give. If not, I might be able, once I get my head around the relevant XML, to offer to code some of these classes for the CBC.
I put up my ideas for a Necro on the wiki. See what you guys think about it. I am interested in the idea of a scythe implement; perhaps offering a couple powers per level that are melee focused, playing off the melee controller angle?
Y'know, I'm not a huge fan of the weapon-using Necromancer... but really, why the hell not? The idea works, and it would be an interesting option.
You know, I really wasn't all that much a fan of the melee necro either. Until a thought came to me: the Death Knight. It's pretty much a template to make a melee necromancer. So why not make it a paragon path? There's always precedent with things like the Rrathmaal allowing PCs to get abilities seen in monsters. Also, it gave me inspiration for a necromancer PC (possible playtesting?) - a young warrior who fought a necromancer, but he was layed low with a curse. Some plague afflicts him and destroys his health. He had to retire as a warrior, but in secret he kept the notes of the necromancer, searching for a cure. He delved deeper and deeper into necromancy, hiding his interest because he knows his town would not accept another practitioner of the same dark art that nearly destroyed them. But then the orc raid occurred. Still not healthy enough to fight, the hero finally took a stand when he saw his home being overrun. He'd face exile before he saw his home destroyed. Opening the book, he started casting. The ranks of the dead rose and drove off the invaders. But he was not welcomed as a hero. It feels like a fun character to play, and the occasional weapon power reflects his original training in the town guard.
I think that's a good idea for a paragon path. It sounds more like something that blends martial melee abilities with necromancy powers - a multi-class or hybrid build (with the paragon path as icing on the cake - or the thing that pulls it all together, depending on your view).
I'm not sure how, exactly, I would go about doing it, but I like the idea of a "Reaper" build (or maybe I just like the name), that uses specific weapons as implements. The powers for it wouldn't have the Weapon keyword, and thematically would be a blend of magic and weapon. Chameleon-X's powers (posted above) would be ideal, just with the Weapon keyword swapped for Implement, and maybe a restriction to the specific weapons-as-implements that the Necromancer could use.
I think a melee controller build would be interesting for the Necromancer. At least a few powers, that is. Just to give players the option if they want to take it. Anyway, I'm I updated the first post with some new ideas. What do we all think about Shadow Caster as a ranged (weapliment?) Build for the Assassin? I think replacing Shade Form with Shadow gate or another feature relating to ranged combat would make an interesting option, what do you guys think?
Fleeting Arrow: You don't take a penalty for running or moving before making a stealth check. When you hit with a ranged or area attack while you are hidden, you may make a stealth check to remain hidden if you have any cover or concealment. In addition, you gain the "Shadow Shot" power.
Shadow Shot
Assassin Class Feature
Imbuing your missile with darkness, you aim to deal maximum damage.
Encounter ♦ Necrotic, Shadow, Weapon
Free Action - Personal
Trigger: You hit a target with a ranged or area attack
Effect: The target takes 1[W] extra necrotic damage.
Level 11: 2[W] Extra necrotic damage. Level 21: 3[W] Extra necrotic damage.
You fire an arrow which trails black-purple mist. On impact, the mist flows over your enemies, sapping their vitality.
At-Will ♦ Implement, Cold, Shadow
Standard Action - Ranged Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6 + Dexterity modifier damage. The target and each enemy adjacent to it takes cold damage equal to your Constitution modifier.
Level 21: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Flickering Arrows
Assassin Attack 7
As you loose your missile, shadowy copies of it flicker in the air, confusing your enemy as to which is the true danger.
Encounter ♦ Illusion, Shadow, Psychic, Weapon
Standard Action - Ranged Weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex or Will; make one attack roll and compare the result to both defenses, then resolve the results as a single attack.
Hit: 2[W] + Dexterity modifier damage. If the attack would hit both Reflex and Will, you may add 1[W] extra psychic damage.
Fleeting Arrow: If you are using a Shortbow, a Hand Crossbow, a Sling, or a Dagger, you may add your Constitution modifier to the extra psychic damage.
Shot in the Dark
Assassin Attack 15
You open portals of shadow all around your enemies and fire a flurry of arrows from each one.
Daily ♦ Conjuration, Shadow, Weapon
Standard Action - Area Burst 5 within weapon range
Target: One, two, three, or four creatures in burst
Attack: Dexterity vs. Reflex
Hit: 3[W] + Dexterity modifier damage.
Effect: Until the end of the encounter you open up to four portals in four unoccupied squares within the burst. While you are adjacent to a portal you may treat any other portal as the origin square of your ranged or area attacks. You still provoke opportunity attacks as if you were in the portal's space, and enemies can make opportunity attacks through a portal.
Sorry about that.
