It may or may not be coming in Heroes of Shadow, but I'd be highly remiss if we never got a playable Incunabula race. Chalk that down as something to try, perhaps?
Necromancer- I could see this as a Controller, Striker or Defender, honestly. The pet using aspect leans pretty defender/controller as need be, what with the healthy supply of summoned meatshields you'd presumably get. If it gets the Diablo 2 treatment with the diseases and the poisons and whatnot, that's a pretty natural striker build methinks. Open-ended opportunity in execution, but it's a fine line to walk to keep it separate and unique from the Wizard.
Hexblade- That name needs to change. Blackguard, Duskblade, Nightmare, I don't know, but we really and truly ought to avoid double-dipping previously used name elements. Presumably Defender? The Shadow Warrior to the Assassin's Shadow Rogue? I'm entirely uninspired at the moment.
Beguiler- Might have some legs, actually. I definitely like the idea of the leader that uses their party rather than assist them. Like Ardents in the 'get out of my head!" sense. Love the idea of the cult leader archetype, too. Could easily second Controller with the illusions and whatnot.
Shadowcaster- I'm not sure what I'm seeing just yet. Striker? Assassin/"Hexblade" seems to have the weapons-wielding end covered... and we've got a lot of cloth-y types already. A witch seems appropriate, but the issue is differentiating it from the Warlock.
I think each class should have a unique link to the Shadowfell. Assassins traded part of their soul for their abilities, right? Well, what about the rest? It was mentioned upthread that the Witch could be a class back from the dead. I love this idea. "Your brush with the hereafter hasn't left you entirely... whole. Something of you was left behind. A piece of your very soul still resides in the inky murk of the Shadowfell." Perhaps another class takes a part of the Shadowfell with them; Lets the darkness inside, maybe. Who knows. It's a unifying piece of flavor for the whole of the power source we'd do well not to overlook.
Eh, I'm fine with leaving it as Hexblade for the time being. Given that we're going to be overlapping with WotC's material anyways (once the Shadow book comes out), overlap with official material doesn't bother me at all. The Hexblade name fits better with the Shadow source than just on a Warlock anyways (especially when the Warlock build in question loses the Curse - the thing that made it a good fit at all for the original Hexblade concept! Wrar! I rant! ).
And I got some ideas banging around in my head, so I'm going to write them down.
[snip]
I didn't read your Witch stuff very hard, so I'm skipping it for the time being.
Hexblade
I, too, think we can easily go with a "standard" curse, modified by Daily powers. I don't know about the healing surge thing at the moment - maybe expand on what you're thinking of?
I agree with your marking power on the following points:
An at-a-distance mark. While I like Close burst for it, I think we may need to reign it in a bit, down to Close burst 5 (at least as a default).
Minor Action.
Affected by (some?) daily powers.
I'm... less supportive of:
(Save Ends). For something that's going to be active all of the time, I think it's just too much extra book-keeping. It may be a viable alternative to limiting the number of marked targets in some manner, but on an at-will, minor action class feature, it just seems inappropriate. Maybe save the (Save Ends) aspects for daily powers somewhere.
A "naked" defender's mark. It needs something else, besides the attack penalty, as a mark effect / punishment effect. I don't know if you had a punishment planned, and didn't include it yet, or what - but it's going to need something beyond that naked mark.
The healing surge use. I'm not sure if it's the specific example you used, or the idea as a whole, but it doesn't sit well with me either. I'm not sure how it's being used thematically, and I don't know if it's a good idea mechanically.
I think it may be a good idea to go the Vestige-pact route - have a default effect for the mark (beyond the naked Marked status), and have Daily powers alter / supercede that default effect.
Maybe have the effect linked to the builds? Just some random brainstorming here, but maybe something like (but with better names...): Cursed to Fall: When the target hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target, it takes a penalty to all defenses equal to one-half your Intelligence modifier until the end of your next turn. Cursed to Fail: When the target hits an ally with an attack that does not include you as a target, it is slowed and takes a penalty to attack rolls equal to one-half your Charisma modifier until the end of your next turn.
Meh. Brainstorming though, right?
Now, for my own random-thought-spewing...
Necromancer
I'd like to see a "pet-based" Necro, preferably a Controller, though any role could work, and any secondary role could be appropriate. The difficulty would be in not stepping on the Shaman's toes too much, I think - but it's not that big of a difficulty.
I'd like to see something like (forgive me for lazy formatting - it's late):
Raise Minion Necro Feature You raise an undead minion. At-Will * Conjuration, Shadow Minor Action; Close burst 10 Effect: You conjure an undead minion in an unoccupied square within range. The minion can be attacked, and uses your defenses. If a minion takes any damage, it is destroyed. Enemy creatures can move through the minion's space, but treat it as difficult terrain. You can spend a Move action to move your minion, or minions. You can choose to either move one minion 4 squares, or to move each minion 1 square. The minion lasts until the end of your next turn. You can have multiple undead minions conjured at a time. Sustain Minor: You sustin one undead minion.
The limit on their numbers would then be the number of actions you would have - normally you would be sustaining one minion (with your minor action), or conjuring new ones. You could, however, sustain/summon multiple minions at a time.
Have an opportunity power as a class feature (much like the Shaman), that lets you attack using one of your minions.
Have multiple (if not all) attack powers originate from an undead minion.
Have (some?) Daily powers that boost/change all minions in some way.
Have some Daily powers that summon more powerful undead, with their own attacks (basically regular Summoned creatures).
To keep the Necro separate from the Wizard, I think it's main role should be as a Leader, not a Controller. Controller and Defender I see as secondary rolls. If the Necro leans towards large amounts of pets (that get opp attacks for moving past them), they could be more defenderish, whereas having status effecting hexes would give them more controller abilities. It's leader abilities would derive from healing allies through the death of a class feature pet (and possibly other pets), while boosting thier abilities when next to said pet. Thus the necro becomes a micromanager leader who moves his pawns to support his allies, hurt his enemies, and disperse the animating magic keeping his minions into energy to heal his allies.
I would like to see a Dark Knight who uses his own healing surges to cause extra damage or nasty mark effects while using attacks that vampirize the health of enemies to keep him up and in the fight. Perhaps defender? Maybe striker? When he places his mark, ignoring him is almost like ignoring the paladin (in that he could cause damage with his mark) but one build would allow the Dark knight to take damage or spend surges to really gut the target (striker option), the other would use the same to gimp the target (controller option).
I see the Shadowcaster type as the controller, pulling and pushing shadow, despair and foul miasmas to direct the enemies where he wants them to go. One build would focus on the changing of the statuses of combatants, moving them off allies and onto enemies or sucking the enemies dry while feeding life into allies within AoEs (leader options), and the other would focus on stopping foes cold, denying them good choices (defender options).
With the Assassin as a Striker, that leaves 2 other classes open for 6 classes max. Perhaps Shadowdancers (though shadowdancer could also be a build for the original assassin) and Witches?
I could see Witches as another Leader class with leanings of Controller or Striker. Witches clouding the mind of enemies with fear and or aggression, causing enemies to act irrationally, while bestowing strength and vitality upon their allies.
Any thoughts on this?
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quote author=56832398 post=519321747]Considering DnD is a game wouldn't all styles be gamist?
I am building the wikidot site to start coordinating work.
I think that the Hexblade should be named differently (shadow warrior), not only because of wotc overlap, but also to avoid player confusion when using the custom classes. also because the hexblade has been shown to be a different concept than what you guys want to do here.
I also propose the addition of a shadowdancer. It would be a sneaky kind of guy, attacking with shadow powers from hiding places, invisibility at higher levels, etc.
here is it. It's pretty basic for now, I can add features as we need 'em. Made up a forum category for site-related discussions.
Awesome. Signed up. I'll contribute when I'm more awake.
I think that the Hexblade should be named differently (shadow warrior), not only because of wotc overlap, but also to avoid player confusion when using the custom classes. also because the hexblade has been shown to be a different concept than what you guys want to do here.
The thing is, what we want to do here (thus far) is the Hexblade - the 3.5 Hexblade. The Hexblade whose name makes any sense at all (since he a.) uses a blade, and .) uses hexes ).
I think we should keep the name because, like the Necromancer, it's just what it is.
The thing is, what we want to do here (thus far) is the Hexblade - the 3.5 Hexblade. The Hexblade whose name makes any sense at all (since he a.) uses a blade, and .) uses hexes ).
I think we should keep the name because, like the Necromancer, it's just what it is.
I also propose the addition of a shadowdancer. It would be a sneaky kind of guy, attacking with shadow powers from hiding places, invisibility at higher levels, etc.
I'm wary of a Shadowdancer class, mostly because so much of the class already exists in the Assassin. Some alternative class features, and some more powers (essentially: a new build) for the Assassin seem to me to be the way to go for a Shadowdancer "class".
EDIT: Just some more random thoughts...
Hexblade
I kind of like the idea of having the fluff for the Hexblade being a sacrificed destiny. They could be individuals who, when confronted with the facts of some grand design or destined fate, chose to avoid it or escape it. They use the deadening, draining aspects of shadow to purge the destiny from themselves - but the removal of one's fate has consequence, and shadow flows in to fill the void. In the end they are left as a sort of wound in the fabric of fate itself. Some who undergo the process of severing themself from their fate simply stop there, returning to their lives and living them fully. Others come to regret their choice, sometimes wasting away in depression, but occassionally striking out to forge a new fate for themselves. Finally, there are those who embrace their "curse" - and learn to control it. Hexblades come from this last group. They are those who have embraced their cursed existance, and have learned to extend it, project it, and ultimately control it.
Necromancer
Master of Death A necromancer knows the gentle repose and speak with dead rituals (see Players Handbook pp 305 and 312), and can perform them regardless of level, and without a ritual book or scroll. In addition, the necromancer can choose to use the shadowstuff bound to him as a component for the ritual, infusing it into the targeted corpse. He can spend a healing surge in order to ignore the component cost of gentle repose, or can spend three healing surges in order to ignore the component cost of speak with dead.
Just a bit of utility that (I feel) should be a part of the class. Instead of the healing surges, we could just go the Druid route and make one, both, or either of the rituals usable 1/day at no cost. I like the flavor/mechanics of spending surges to do it though, so...
Oh, and it leaves it open for an obvious feat (though not an optimal one, surely):
Deathspeaker Prerequisite: Necromancer, Master of Death class feature. Benefit: When you use the gentle repose or speak with dead rituals, you can spend an additional healing surge in order to reduce the time it takes to perform the ritual to 1 minute.
To keep the Necro separate from the Wizard, I think it's main role should be as a Leader, not a Controller.
I disagree with this. The Necromancer should be a Controller so that it doesn't step on the Shaman's toes and in a way the Sentinel's also. A controller with a pet hasn't been done before as a class feature and I believe that the Necromancer should and would fit this niche perfectly. It would obviously lean towards defender and leader as its secondary roles.
The one thing that jumps out at me immediately is do we really need to make five classes? That's really pushing it, I feel. Three new classes to fill out the power source would do just fine and would allow us to integrate ideas into grander schemes. It'd become a bitch later on, if we decide to take five classes on, to avoid having the different classes step on each other's toes. Before we start talking mechanics, we should discuss the individual flavor of each of the classes, to make sure that they have enough to stand on their own.
For example... the beguiler. Why? I pulled out the Player's Handbook II from 3.5 and I'm reading it over and I'm not entirely sure why this should be made into a class, a shadow class no less. First, this class is pretty much already in the game. With the introduction of hybrid classes, the game effectively got 650+ classes in the game. A wizard|rogue or sorcerer|rogue pretty much is a beguiler: a rogue who uses arcane spells, specifically illusion. (Actually, now that I think about it, one of my players runs a beguiler.) Second, nothing about the beguiler in 3.5 says it should be a shadow class. If the beguiler had to be ported into 4e, it could be a Essentials style martial/arcane rogue class as a controller.
The shadowcaster evokes similar feelings. I mean, yeah, it is obviously a shadow class, would definitely be a controller, but... what is it? What's a shadowcaster, other than a shadow using wizard/sorcerer? In Tome of Magic, it just seems like a wizard that uses shadow magic which doesn't feel strong enough to carry an entire class in 4th edition.
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