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Secrets of Belial --> Note of Aggression

So im curious about something, can hexblades retrain eldrich bolt into somethin else or are they stuck with it 

They are stuck with it.  You can only retrain things you have the choice of in the first place.

However, there technically are ways to swap it out. PMC, for one. I think you can also trade it for the Sunspray/Foamgather Warrior at-wills. But, no, you can't get rid of it through retraining.

also, im kinda surprised draconic incarnation, prince of hell, and emergent primordial aren't on the list of epic destinies.

There has been a FAQ that states that if you take Arcane Implement Proficiency for your pact blade and Dual Implement Spellcaster you get the benefits of DIS.


From the Heros of the Forgotten Kingdoms FAQ:

Q: If my fey-pact warlock takes the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat from the Arcane Powers book, choosing the light blade implement, can I benefit from the Dual Implement Spellcaster feat with hexblade powers?
A: Yes, a hexblade can use the Arcane Implement Proficiency and Dual Implement Spellcaster feats to add the non-pact weapon implement’s enhancement bonus twice

Unfortunately it leaves out the gloom pact hexblade because there is no Arcane Implement Proficiency Flail.

There was really no need for that FAQ, the rules were obvious.

Gloom can get DIS as well, they'll just need to use an enchantment that is an implement. For instance, Pact Blade.

also i feel like I should mention the awesome that is the helm of teleportation combat advantage whenever you teleport next to an enemy for fey pact of winter especially this is increadible 

Apr 20, 2012 -- 12:17AM, Koshinuke wrote:

There has been a FAQ that states that if you take Arcane Implement Proficiency for your pact blade and Dual Implement Spellcaster you get the benefits of DIS.


From the Heros of the Forgotten Kingdoms FAQ:

Q: If my fey-pact warlock takes the Arcane Implement Proficiency feat from the Arcane Powers book, choosing the light blade implement, can I benefit from the Dual Implement Spellcaster feat with hexblade powers?
A: Yes, a hexblade can use the Arcane Implement Proficiency and Dual Implement Spellcaster feats to add the non-pact weapon implement’s enhancement bonus twice

Unfortunately it leaves out the gloom pact hexblade because there is no Arcane Implement Proficiency Flail.

No but they can get a ki focus for a multiclass or theme.

Hi, perhaps ithas benn asked yet.
Because my pact weapon shares the properties with my implement,
if I have a khopesh as an implement because, for example, I multiclassed swordmage,
my pact weapon get the property "Brutal 1" (a property of my implement)?
Thank you for your replies and greetings for the thread!

RAW, yes.

This also has the amusing result that you can make your pact weapon Light Thrown, but then be prohibited from throwing it without it instantly vanishing.

Suffice it to say that the pact weapon rules are extremely poorly written.

Your pact weapon persists until you no longer hold either it or the implement, or until you dismiss it as a free action.

Does that mean, that you have to hold both your implement and your pact weapon to keep it? So you effectively can't get full Swordmage Warding, since you can't have a hand free, when you want to have your pact weapon manifested.

If you could put your implement away while wielding the pact weapon, could you use it on its own as an implement, since it shares the properties of the implement?

Thanks in advance.

How are you getting Swordmage Warding as a Hexblade in the first place? 

May 1, 2012 -- 4:43AM, rjsilverthorn wrote:

How are you getting Swordmage Warding as a Hexblade in the first place? 

Multiclass swordmage though it is only for one fight a day hardly worth the effort.

You have to ask yourself one important question first

When it says hand are you using it as your physical hands or are you going with main hand/off hand?  They are not the same thing.  For instance a spiked shield may be wielded in the off hand but is never wielded in a hand (notice that spiked shields are not held in hand at all).  Same thing for items like the wrist razor or gauntlet axe.  You could also make a case about things like gauntlets which are not really held either.

One RAW way to do it eitherway is to go with a ki focus.  They don't technically take a slot and they can be anything physically.  THis is important because it means they don't need to be held in the hand except for the purpose of the pact blade and since it can be anything you can make it into a ribbon or similar and have it wrapped around you hand (which you can grasp when needed) but would otherwise leave the hand free (you can still hold other items since the ribbon would not take any space and you don't need to hold a ki focus to use it so you can hold it and another item no problem with the right choice).  You can get ki focuses from the elemental initiate theme which is a decent theme all around anyway.

So coming back to my original question, you cannot use the full SM Warding bonus of +3 while fighting with your Pact Weapon, if your implement is something you cannot hold while keeping your hand free.

Thanks

A niçce work around would be to ask your GM if you are permitted to use your Implement as the Pact Blade hilt.

Think like a Laser saber, you have the implement in your hand and summon the pact blade out of it, technically you have your implement and your pact sword in your hand, they are just combined and only use one hand.

Wich personnaly makes much more sens to me.

Something nice has an armor for a Hexblade and particulary a Infernalblade to wear is the Ebon armor.

Adds 3+Armor enanchment THP when a creature is put to 0 HP in a tile adjacent to you.

The good thing is that unlike the Soul Feast power of your Soul EAter strike is that it isn't limited at one use per round...

So getting into a large melee with low hp critters and use a NOva/BUrst, will asure you a large amount of THP to collect!

Also the +3+2x AE resist Necrotic isn't half bad when facing Undeads creatures.

ANother item fun to use would be a Gauntlet Axe, seeing that this item if used as a offhand item gives a +1 AC and leaves your hand free, and you can also enchant it, and getting those weapons enchants that are denied to you with your Pact blade.

Also what do you guys think about the feat Twofold Pact?

Is it worth it?

I'm thinking of  Infernal/Elemental Twofold Pact, and with the Walker of the Dark Path MC who give you prof. with holy symbols, you could then dual wield a Blade of annihilation and a Blade of Chaos, and use the Elemental Wrath power.

Or am i in the wrong here?

EDIT; yeah lets forget what i just said...It doesn't work that way, you only get acces to the basics Warlock Pacts, not the Hexblade Pacts.

Might be interessting in some cases, but too much of those pacts require the Warlock Curse power to work...

Wut?

Jun 8, 2012 -- 4:49AM, Chaosrex wrote:

Something nice has an armor for a Hexblade and particulary a Infernalblade to wear is the Ebon armor.

Adds 3+Armor enanchment THP when a creature is put to 0 HP in a tile adjacent to you.

The good thing is that unlike the Soul Feast power of your Soul EAter strike is that it isn't limited at one use per round...

So getting into a large melee with low hp critters and use a NOva/BUrst, will asure you a large amount of THP to collect!

It doesn't need to be, because the rules for temp hitpoints already cover that. Temporary hitpoints do not stack unless it explicitly says so.

Really?, strangely at our session the Half orc barbarian ended up with 74 THPs and neither the GM nor the other players said anything on the matter.

Jun 8, 2012 -- 10:37AM, Chaosrex wrote:

Really?, strangely at our session the Half orc barbarian ended up with 74 THPs and neither the GM nor the other players said anything on the matter.

Yeah THP pretty much never stack.  Otherwise CON Artificers would have a field day.

ooh well...

Another question, what items.feats can be used to expand the range of Ethereal Sidestep ?

Apart from the classic" take all the +1/2 range Teleport items you can wear" because of what i saw to gain lets say a 6 teleporte range with it, you need rings,boots and the dagger, but then those slots are wasted for other utility's and effects who might come in handy.

isn't there a way to rapidly expand the teleport range without sacrifiying 3 or 4 of your gear slots?

Basically:

Boots, armour, rings (3 of them, if you want to spend your hands slot), weapon (of which there are several, which stack), familiar (of which there are two, of different alternative utility).

If you want to buff your teleporting, you give up gear slots to do it, except for the familiar, which costs a feat and your familiar.  There's not a way to do it cheaper.

Incisive Dagger is the best bang for your buck, since it provides a distance boost equal to its enhancement bonus.  That could be +6 squares for 1 slot at higher levels.

What do you guys think are the best Ki Focuses to use for a hexblade?  And which superior Ki focus would you pick up?  I've been looking through and found a few which I liked.

Rain of Hammers Ki Focus
Forked Lightning Ki Focus
Abduction Ki Focus
Ineffable Secret of Death

Kind of depends on the hexblade.  Elemental Hexblade would like anything that changes an attack to a damage type.  You could also look at the iron body ki focus and get resist all, the amount being based on the enhancement bonus of the focus, to the damage dealt by creature you hit.  And if you do go that route, look at the superior implement versions too.  Like a mighty abduction ki focus which would slide 2.

Superior Ki Focus:
Transcendent will tack on Reach to your MBA-Hexblade attack, which can be hilarious.
Accurate is always good.
Iron is 1/2/3 extra damage, +1 on forced movement.  Depending on which flavor of Hexblade you play, this might be great.
Mighty is good for White Well.  Empowered Crit, and +1 against Reflex which helps Moonfire Blade.

Those are the main 4 I use for Hexblades.  Flavor really depends on which pact you have for the Hexblade.  I like Iron on Gloom pact, and Mighty for White Well.  Accurate is good for anyone.

So quick question, is there a way to make soul eater not hit armor class, because if not, I see the infernal hexblade become just obsolete in paragon teir.

Jun 28, 2012 -- 9:17AM, Boomb0x wrote:

So quick question, is there a way to make soul eater not hit armor class, because if not, I see the infernal hexblade become just obsolete in paragon teir.

Arcane Implement Proficiency (light blade), then MC martial and take Deft Blade.

That works? I thought that the property of weapon type didnt transfer to the pact blade

It doesn't need to, all Deft Blade looks at is if you are making a basic attack with a light blade. Since Soul Eater has both the implement and weapon keywords you are using both the pact blade and the light blade implement.

Remember with the pact blade at wills you are actually using two items in every attack and they both count.  One is the weapon part (heavy blade) and one is your implement (assumed to be some sort of light blade in this case).  This means that you can use any effect requiring a heavy blade (such as head mans chop) and light blades (like deft blade) at the same time.  It is  narrow but unique path of optimization that the hexblade can use.

Jun 29, 2012 -- 5:34AM, The_Crimson_Dawn wrote:

Remember with the pact blade at wills you are actually using two items in every attack and they both count.  One is the weapon part (heavy blade) and one is your implement (assumed to be some sort of light blade in this case).  This means that you can use any effect requiring a heavy blade (such as head mans chop) and light blades (like deft blade) at the same time.  It is  narrow but unique path of optimization that the hexblade can use.

So would Staff Expertise give you reach with your pact weapon then?

Jul 13, 2012 -- 7:44PM, Endarrion wrote:

Jun 29, 2012 -- 5:34AM, The_Crimson_Dawn wrote:

Remember with the pact blade at wills you are actually using two items in every attack and they both count.  One is the weapon part (heavy blade) and one is your implement (assumed to be some sort of light blade in this case).  This means that you can use any effect requiring a heavy blade (such as head mans chop) and light blades (like deft blade) at the same time.  It is  narrow but unique path of optimization that the hexblade can use.

So would Staff Expertise give you reach with your pact weapon then?

Yes.

Jul 13, 2012 -- 7:57PM, Alcestis wrote:

  Yes.

Thanks!

Can someone please explain very explicitly why a hexblade gains reach with staff expertise?  Im trying to explain and apparent not doing a very good job.  Its been agreed that transcendent ki focus works fine, but I can't seem to convince them that staff expertise works as well :/

Because staff expertise says:

"When you make a melee weapon attack with a staff, the weapon's reach for that attack increases by one."

And when you use a staff implement to summon your pact weapon and attack with a hexblade attack, you are:

1) Making a melee - it is Melee.
2) weapon attack -  it has the Weapon keyword.
3) with a staff - you're using a Staff in the attack.

Therefore,

"the weapon's reach for that attack increases by one" - 'the weapon' for that attack is your pact weapon, its reach increases by one.

That the staff isn't the weapon in question probably isn't RAI, but it is undisputably RAW.  What would fix it is saying "make a melee weapon attack using a staff as a weapon."  Because you can't use the staff as a weapon one-handed, and so it would prevent staff expertise from adding reach to all hexblade attacks.  Or, another fix would be "the staff's" reach instead of "the weapon's" reach.  Because increasing the reach of the staff for a hexblade attack wouldn't do anything, the staff isn't what is being used to determine reach.

Note that the fix isn't necessary for anything that isn't a Hexblade attack, because for every other weapon attack in the game, there is only one item involved in the attack.  I am absolutely sure that the writers of the feat didn't put it in because they didn't think it was necessary, because for everyone but a hexblade it isn't necssary.

Hexblade powers are unique in 4E in that they carry both Implement and Weapon keywords, allowing some goofy possibilities not seen in any other class thanks to how Hexblades attack.

Relevant Quote:   "When you use a power associated with your pact weapon and the power has both the weapon and the implement keyword, you are considered to be wielding both your pact weapon and your implement for the purpose of feats and other game elements."

I was wondering is their anyway for a Hexblade to replace their default Encounter power(s)?  I am looking for something like the Slayer's Martial Cross-Training feat.

In short?  No.

That is what I figured, I just wanted to make sure I was not missing something.  The best I been able to come up with is Multiclass and take Novice Power, then use Reserve Menuver in Paragon Tier to replace your other copy of your encounter power.  But I am not even sure if this works since your hexblade encounter power's lack a level.

This does put a limit on your multiclass option, and eats up 3 feats... I guess the question become is it worth all of that to have 'more' useful encounter powers?  It is not like your defualt choices bad, just not as good as using your highly optimized  At-will.

Another question can a fighter multiclass use Novice Power to get the slayer's Powe Strike? I am guessing not since Power Strike does not have a level attached to it. 

Well technically frost fey hexblades have a level 7 encounter power though it really is a typo...

You could just houserule a martial cross training feat for hexblades it would not be even that big of a deal...

Jul 16, 2012 -- 12:46PM, OrionNo9 wrote:

That is what I figured, I just wanted to make sure I was not missing something.  The best I been able to come up with is Multiclass and take Novice Power, then use Reserve Menuver in Paragon Tier to replace your other copy of your encounter power.  But I am not even sure if this works since your hexblade encounter power's lack a level.

This does put a limit on your multiclass option, and eats up 3 feats... I guess the question become is it worth all of that to have 'more' useful encounter powers?  It is not like your defualt choices bad, just not as good as using your highly optimized  At-will.

Another question can a fighter multiclass use Novice Power to get the slayer's Powe Strike? I am guessing not since Power Strike does not have a level attached to it. 

Yes, the lack of level is mostly what causes problems. 

As far as the fighter, you can use Novice Power to gain a normal fighter encounter power, and then use the feat that lets you swap it for Power Strike.

It's a massive feat expenditure for something not particularly strong, however.

Was re-reading in part the first 40 pages of the thread, and something then popped in my head.

BG wise my char had lost an arm and when he did his Pact, he got a replacement made out of "Chaos-steel", think Fullmetal alchimist & berserk style.

Our Dm authorized me to use the gauntlet axe to represent this, thus i take +1 ac, and have a free hand.

But if i take the AIP, can i take the "axe" as a valid implement?, thus giving me a implement that i don't need to hold in my hand, but that is still in contact with my hand(wich nearly counts for the same right?).

Seeing that axes, are also considered heavy blades in most cases, if i take Versatile expertise, i get the extra bonus.

Sadly no, axes are not a valid option for AIP, because no arcane class uses them as implements.  But given that your DM is houseruling your arm already, just go for it.  You won't break the game.

yeah don't think it will work, he can be cranky on stuffs that is Raw and RAI...

He grants things based on the RP and commitment to the character, for exemple he gave me for free the Helm of Seven deaths item through a Scenario  plot, because i wanted it,because it fitted my Background(with his arm, my char got also the left part of his face ripped off, and his eye gouged, so when making his pact, with the arm he got a mask , who looks like a half skull with 7 eyes on it, that covers the left side of his face).

But for the rest, he is really the by the rules kinda guy.

So yeah i think i will go with the turathi weapon training, take a kopesh, and use AIP, because kopeshs counts as heavy blades.

Thus gaining the burtal property.

You're not using the khopesh as a weapon though as a hexblade, brutal won't help you.

Doesn't the property of the weapliment transfers to the pact blade?

Magical properties, not mundane.

Brutal only affects the khopesh's [W].  Your hexblade attacks are using a different [W].

Thats sad...

Could have sworn that their was no explicit line about "magic" or "none magic" propertys in the pact blade paragraphe...

Oh well gonna find something else.

Why is there no entry for the superior implement proficiency feet in the feet section? The accurate, defiant, and deathbone rods are awesome for hexblades. Also right now I just leveled up my fey pact of the white well hexblade and I’m wondering if I should pick the defiant or accurate rod for superior implement proficiency.

So going back into the thread i will see if i got this right.

Now for better understanding, the campaigne we are running is set in a world where magic is much more present, so we all got a free MC feat, with an arcane/Primal/or divine spell user(no prayers or anything, purly magic).

I took Swordmage, seeing that it was most interessting for me, with the weapliment.
But according to our GM we still can choose a MC feat unrestricted.

So i think of getting Practioned Killer.

So now i have Weapliment from Swordmage MC and Ki focus from Executoiner MC.

I'm an Hellblade, Revenant/Tiefllin.

So lets say i use a Firewind Blade+2 as my weapliment to summon the pact Blade, so the Blade of Annihilation is now ;

Weapon: Heavy blade, D12

Enhancement Bonus: +2

Critical: +1d6 fire damage per plus, and you can slide the target 1 square per plus

Property

Whenever you hit one or more targets with a fire power using this weapon, one enemy adjacent to you takes fire damage equal to 1 + the weapon’s enhancement bonus.

Utility Power (Fire) Daily (Free Action)

Trigger: You use your second wind on your turn.

Effect: Until the end of your next turn, your melee attacks using this weapon deal extra fire damage equal to the weapon’s enhancement bonus.

Right?

So when i strike with Blazing Doom of the Void i do;

2(W)+CHA+(CON),and 1 ennemy adjacent takes 3 Fire dmg.

Is it ok?

Now lets say that i use a Devastating Ki Focus+2 while making my BDotV attack, so i also use the Ki's property [When you roll damage for an implement attack or a weapon attack with this ki focus, any die that shows a 1 or a 2 instead deals 3 damage.]

So in the end when using my Pact blade + the Ki implement on BDotV i do;

2(W)+CHA+(CON),and 1 ennemy adjacent takes 3 Fire dmg and count 1 and 2's on the dmg dices as 3's.

Is that correct?

Also if i do a Crit i can only use one of the weapliment/implement Crits property and i get only the proficiency of the highest.

I talked to this with my Gm and he gave me the paragraphe on Ki Focus in the 3rd PHB pg 204, saying that when you ue a ki focus on an attack, you can only get the property's, enhancments etc of one of the the two, and not both.

Now the way i explained it to him might be false.

i explained him, that if i use the weapliment to summon the Pact weapon, it inherits its stats, and then i use the Ki focus as the impliment during the attack.

Wich he said i can't do because of the rule on pg 204 of the PHB3.

But rereading the thread, i might have seen where my error was.

So if i do the other way around, using the Ki focus to maintain the Pact Weapon, and use the weapliment during the attack, does it legally work?

Or i'm i still in delussion?

No I don’t believe so. In the case presented above when using blazing doom of the void it states that you must use your pact weapon for the attack. You can’t use your weapliment to make the attack you have to use your pact weapon so in this case you would only get the enhancements transferred to the pact weapon from the implement you used to summon said pact weapon.

This i know, the discussion a few 50 pages ago was that because all the powers and attacks from the Hexblade have the weapon and the implement keywords.

So the theory was that you used the Ki focus to transfer its propertys etc to the pact blade, and then when making an attack that has Weapon+Implement in the keywords, you also use your other implement.

On the paragraphe about Pact weapon in the HoFK, it is said that you use both your implement AND your pact weapon when attacking.

But the discussion derived on the subject if yes or no, because you have this perticular line in the text, you effectively can make use of your offhand implement(and not the ki focus) property's and powers.

You cannot summon or sustain your pact weapon with your ki focus since the implement used for this must be in your off-hand and the ki focus cannot be equipped off-hand (it doesn't use a physical slot at all.)

Aug 6, 2012 -- 6:26PM, Undrhil wrote:

You cannot summon or sustain your pact weapon with your ki focus since the implement used for this must be in your off-hand and the ki focus cannot be equipped off-hand (it doesn't use a physical slot at all.)

You can hold your Ki Focus if you choose to.

Aug 6, 2012 -- 6:27PM, PhilipENoe wrote:

Aug 6, 2012 -- 6:26PM, Undrhil wrote:

You cannot summon or sustain your pact weapon with your ki focus since the implement used for this must be in your off-hand and the ki focus cannot be equipped off-hand (it doesn't use a physical slot at all.)

You can hold your Ki Focus if you choose to.

The Ki Focus has its own "slot" - the ki focus slot.  It cannot be equipped any other way.  Compare it to the Holy Symbol, which also has it's own slot but which specifically says holy symbols can be wielded in your hand.  The rules for Ki Foci do not give any such provisions.

Also, if he was to wield his ki focus in his off-hand, his pact weapon would be in his other hand and he would have nowhere to wield his khopesh (or whatever weapon he is trying to use.) 

Bold added for emphasis.
A ki focus is an implement that certain characters use as a focus for their inner magical energy, known as ki. A ki focus might take the form of a training manual, a scroll of ancient secrets, a blunt training weapon, or a cherished memento.
    Attunement: Before you can use a ki focus, you must attune yourself to it. To attune yourself to a ki focus, you must have the item on your person during a short or an extended rest and must have proficiency with ki focuses. Some characters study their ki focus to attune themselves to it. Others meditate with it or wield it as they practice fighting techniques. The ki focus that you are attuned to occupies your ki focus item slot.
    Whenever you take a rest, you can attune yourself to a ki focus in your possession, but you can be attuned to only one ki focus at a time. Also, only one creature at a time can be attuned to a particular ki focus. Once you attune yourself to a ki focus, no one else can be attuned to it until you are no longer attuned to it or you are dead.
    Using a Ki Focus: Once you have attuned yourself to a ki focus, you must either wear it or hold it in order to use it as an implement.

When you use a power associated with your pact weapon and the power has both the weapon and the implement keyword, you are considered to be wielding both your pact weapon and your implement for the purpose of feats and other game elements.

EDIT:  I'm not sure where a ki focus would be held, other than in the hand.  The "Using a Ki Focus" section would seem to indicate that off handed ki focii are indeed RAW.

Geez, MF, such a negative nancy. It's way more fun to make up our own rules.

The thing is that you don't need to hold the Ki focus to use it as an implement.

"you must either wear it or hold it in order to use it as an implement."

It was made this way to enable Thiefs&Assassins and Monks to use implement powers while having a weapon in each hand.

Aug 7, 2012 -- 5:43AM, Chaosrex wrote:

The thing is that you don't need to hold the Ki focus to use it as an implement.

"you must either wear it or hold it in order to use it as an implement."

It was made this way to enable Thiefs&Assassins and Monks to use implement powers while having a weapon in each hand.

But not needing to hold it and not being able to hold it are not the same thing.

The not-being-held is a huge advantage for ki focii in most instances.  But I was just pointing out that they CAN be held, if the user desires.  In the case of Hexblades, it's a requirement to manifest a pact weapon.

Aug 5, 2012 -- 8:20PM, Chaosrex wrote:

This i know, the discussion a few 50 pages ago was that because all the powers and attacks from the Hexblade have the weapon and the implement keywords.

So the theory was that you used the Ki focus to transfer its propertys etc to the pact blade, and then when making an attack that has Weapon+Implement in the keywords, you also use your other implement.

On the paragraphe about Pact weapon in the HoFK, it is said that you use both your implement AND your pact weapon when attacking.

But the discussion derived on the subject if yes or no, because you have this perticular line in the text, you effectively can make use of your offhand implement(and not the ki focus) property's and powers.

Ok two things one how are you transferring the ki focuses property’s and such to the pact blade and using the weaplement as the implement for the attack. and second in the paragraph for the pact weapon in HoFK it states " When you use a power associated with your pact weapon and the power has both the weapon and the implement keyword, you are considered to be wielding both your pact weapon and your implement for the purpose of feats and other game elements." It does not state that you use both your implement and your pact weapon for the attack.

....I'm sorry?

That makes no sense.

I apologize if I’m not making sense but what’s so confusing?

The part where you say it doesn't say what it says.

I'll copy this from my notes on Hexblades in the pregen thread...

Hexblade Quirks

The wording is very important here, because you gain the benefits of anything boosting weapon attacks, and anything boosting your implement attacks.  In the case of ki focii, you are not using the standard ki focus rules, you're using the specific Hexblade rules.  So if I have a rod in the off hand, using it to manifest a pact weapon that is a light blade, I could get the benefit of Rod Expertise AND something like Nimble Blade.  Because I am attacking with both a rod, and a light blade.

I don’t see how you are attacking with both the implement and the pact weapon when it states specifically you are using the pact weapon for the attack unless wielding a weapon or implement is the same as attacking with it in witch case I’m sorry for being a n00b.

The only powers that have the implement and weapon keywords are attack powers.

The thing is the thing is though almost all of those powers have a range of melee weapon so I still don’t see how you are using an implement to deliver the attack. From what I have seen so far it seems to me that the only way to do the attack is with the pact weapon.

Because the attack has the Implement keyword.  That's how attack powers work.

For a comparison, take any old Wizard power you feel like.  How does the power "appear" to be using the implement to you?

You make the attack with the pact weapon, but you also gain the implement benefits, because you are using the implement to manifest the weapon.  This is still subject to normal melee ranges.  Hexflails get reach, and you can do some Ki Focus tricks to get reach on other Hexblades.  But for standard, they have normal melee range.

This is explained in game terms by Hexblade attacks carrying both the Implement and Weapon keyword, granting you the benefit of both on these Hexblade attacks.  In a normal case yes, only the weapon bonuses would apply.  Or the enhancement bonuses from a Ki Focused weapon attack.  But Hexblades have specific rules that override the general rules.

Hexblades are unique and different, basically a gish-in-a-box subclass.  They trade Warlock Curse support/damage for an always on striker damage feature, and a new way to interact with implements and weapons. 

Even with some of the neat tricks they can manage, they're still behind the parent class.  They're still playable, and enabling leaders like them because of their hefty always on damage bonuses.  They're all good chargers.  But overall, their power level doesn't hit that of a good Warlock, even with the double dipping keywords.

Ok thank you TheMalteseFalchion know I see what you are talking about I understand what you are talking about. i know about how pact weapons inherit the implements benefits but i saw quite a few post stating things like "i use the Ki Focus to make the attack" or "i use the weaplement to make the attack" and I thought they were referring to using the actual implement for the attack instead of the pact weapon. So when people say that they mean there using the implement for the attack they are meaning they are the pact weapon with that implement’s benefits right?

Aug 7, 2012 -- 1:35PM, blazeninja wrote:

Ok thank you TheMalteseFalchion know I see what you are talking about I understand what you are talking about. i know about how pact weapons inherit the implements benefits but i saw quite a few post stating things like "i use the Ki Focus to make the attack" or "i use the weaplement to make the attack" and I thought they were referring to using the actual implement for the attack instead of the pact weapon. So when people say that they mean there using the implement for the attack they are meaning they are the pact weapon with that implement’s benefits right?

They are attacking with both the pact weapon, which has taken the magic properties of the implement, AND the implement that they used to manifest the pact weapon.  Hence both the "Weapon" and "Implement" keywords on hexblade powers.

The part I’m confused over though is how you can attack with say a rod when the power specifically states that you have to use the pact weapon. Also if what you say is true then wouldn’t that also mean you get two separate attacks?

Your confusing rules and fluff here. You benefit from both because that is what the rules say happens, how you actually envision it working isn't really relevant to the rules. 

Aug 7, 2012 -- 1:51PM, blazeninja wrote:

The part I’m confused over though is how you can attack with say a rod when the power specifically states that you have to use the pact weapon. Also if what you say is true then wouldn’t that also mean you get two separate attacks?

Okay, look at the power cards for the Hexblade attacks.  You'll see that they have both the weapon and the implement keywords.  This means that when you're making the attack, you're using both.  So you're making a single attack, but using both the pact blade and the rod at the same time.  It's a little confusing because Hexblades are the only class that has powers like this.

Ok I get it so this normally wouldn’t be a problem because the pact weapon and the implement used to summon the pact weapon share the same properties. But then you get into Ki focuses and the question if you can use them as the implement for the attack and thus the question if you can apply both properties right? Also people talk about Ki focuses for this use a lot but would holy symbols work too? If it is actually RAW that is.

No because Holy symboles have to be hold to use.

Aug 8, 2012 -- 11:18AM, Chaosrex wrote:

No because Holy symboles have to be hold to use.

Where does it say that? It states multiple times in the PHB that you can gain the benefits of a holy symbol just by wearing it.

Aug 7, 2012 -- 1:19PM, Mand12 wrote:

Because the attack has the Implement keyword. That's how attack powers work. For a comparison, take any old Wizard power you feel like. How does the power "appear" to be using the implement to you?

The difference here is that the powers specify what you must use in this case your pact weapon. I thought that meant you could only use your pact weapon for the attack. Also I would prefer it if you would refrain from further snarky and rude comments that appear to have been posted for the sole purpose of making me feel stupid just because I slightly misinterpreted the rules that are already vague to begin with, thank you.

Okay, this is the Tiefling Infernal Pact Hexblade I created with help from this guide.  Please give feedback and suggestions on how to make her better:

Tiefling Female Hexblade level 8
Infernal Pact
Devil's Pawn Theme
Tiefling - Merchant Dynasty (taking +2 to Streetwise) Background

Starting Ability Scores
Str:  10
Con:  16
Dex:  14
Int:  11
Wis:  10
Cha:  20

Ability Score Increases
Level 4:  +1 Cha and Con
Level 8:  +1 Cha and Con
 
Trained Skills
Bluff:  16
Intimidate:  14
Stealth:  12
Streetwise:  16

Powers Selected
Lv. 1:  Tyranny of Flame
Lv. 2:  Ethereal Stride
Lv. 5:  Crackling Fire
Lv. 6:  Life Siphon

Feats
Lv. 1:  Wand Expertise
Lv. 2:  Imperious Majesty
Lv. 4:  White Lotus Riposte
Lv. 6:  Improved Initiative
Lv. 8:  Superiour Implement Training (Cinder Wand)

Our DM let us pick a +2 weapon or implement, a +2 suit of armor, and two magical items up to level 10 excluding rares and wonderous items.

Equipment
Armor:  +2 Ebon Chainmail
Main Hand:  Blade of Annihilation
Off Hand:  +2 Hellfire Cinder Wand
Arms:  Iron Armbands of Power (heroic)
Neck:  +2 Fireflower Pendant 

Let me know what you think guys! Thanks!

Aug 15, 2012 -- 11:42AM, blazeninja wrote:

Aug 8, 2012 -- 11:18AM, Chaosrex wrote:

No because Holy symboles have to be hold to use.

Where does it say that? It states multiple times in the PHB that you can gain the benefits of a holy symbol just by wearing it.

You get the benefits, if they are benefits that doesn't require to use the holy symbole to attack.

If you get a Holy symbole that needs you to attack or hit with a power using the Symbole, you must hold it to work.

Ki focus are different, because they don't require you to hold them to use their benefits, regardless of in what manner you must use it.

You can attack with a worn Holy Symbol.

Hexblades, however, must hold their implement, no matter what kind it is.  If you want to use a Holy Symbol to manifest your pact weapon, you must hold it.

Any work on Hybrid Options for Hexblade? I have some bizarre combos I wanna try

Not going to happen.

There was an article detailing hybrid and multiclass options for the post-Essentials classes, and it included hexblade multiclass feats.  But no hybrid.  And the whole thing was pulled from the final release after playtesting, so...

Sep 4, 2012 -- 7:42PM, Mand12 wrote:

Not going to happen.

There was an article detailing hybrid and multiclass options for the post-Essentials classes, and it included hexblade multiclass feats.  But no hybrid.  And the whole thing was pulled from the final release after playtesting, so...

So no fun allowed...Guess the Hex/Pali and Hex/Sorc will have to wait

Hello everyone !

Perusing the thread around I haven't found any clear cut answer to the issue which i will descibe below. This, or my brain rotted away.
The issue goes as follows:

Level 4 Hexblade, Revenant [Minotaur], Pact of the White Well

Stats (base): 10, 11, 16, 10, 8, 17

Feat #1: Vampirism
Feat #2: Silvery Glow
Feat #4: Bloodied Ferocity

Relevant Items: Wand of Wonder +2, Cascading Strikes Ki Focus, Bracers of Mighty Striking

According to the CB which is not a rules source, he gets
+12 Attack (5 cha + 2 half lvl + 2 prof. bonus + 1 enh. bonus + 2 off-hand enh.)
and
+16 damage (5 cha + 1 enh. bonus + 4 pact reward + 2 off-hand enh. +2 feat +2 item)

The entry in CB shows the following: Cascading Strike Ki Focused Fey Pact of the White Well Weapon. And thus I ask everyone around the following:
 - Is this by RAW legal and working?
 - If not, where is the issue and where may I find the rules regarding it?
 - And if I don't ask too much, can anyone explain to me in simple words (you know, like explaining to dumb autistic kids) how Ki Focusing the hexblade weapon works?

As far as I understood it goes like this: the pact weapon has all the "good stuff" from the off-hand implement. It is like having a wand in the main hand and being able to kick stuff with it like a weapon. And by the same principle, ki focusing the pact weapon should work as it functions for the assassin. If I got it wrong, please show me the right way and explain so I can DM properly and explain correctly to the player in cause.

Thank you very much. 

"Ki Focuses and Weapon Attacks: If you use a magic ki focus, you can add its enhancement bonus to the attack rolls and the damage rolls of weapon attacks you make using a weapon with which you have proficiency. If you have both a magic ki focus and a magic weapon, you choose before you use an attack power whether to draw on the magic of the ki focus or that of the weapon. Your choice determines which enhancement bonus, critical hit effects, and magic item properties and powers you can apply to that power. You can’t, for example, use the enhancement bonus of your ki focus and the critical hit effect of your magic weapon on the same attack."
-RC

"PACT WEAPON
While you hold your implement in one hand, you can use a minor action to manifest your pact weapon in the other hand. The pact weapon you create depends on your pact. Your pact weapon persists until you no longer hold either it or the implement, or until you dismiss it as a free action.
    You can make weapon attacks with your pact weapon, using its proficiency bonus and the appropriate damage die. Your pact weapon shares your implement’s enhancement bonus, critical hit effect, properties, and powers. The weapon cannot be enchanted.
    When you use a power associated with your pact weapon and the power has both the weapon and the implement keyword, you are considered to be wielding both your pact weapon and your implement for the purpose of feats and other game elements."
-RC 

While I'm sure it's not intended, a pact weapon seems to not actually be considered a magic weapon. It has the properties, powers, effects and enhancement bonus of your implement, as if it were a magic weapon, but it's the implement that is considered the magic item. Then again, I can't find any proper definition of a magic weapon, so by applying all those effects it might be considered one, but the "cannot be enchanted" implies that it not only isn't but can't be a magic weapon.

It seems to me that, with powers with both the implement and weapon keywords, you can apply the properties, proficiency bonus and critical hit effect of the pact weapon (that is, the offhand implement's properties), but only one enhancement bonus (the highest) may be chosen, as per the bonus rules:

"If a bonus has a type (such as a power or a feat bonus), the bonus is not cumulative with bonuses of the same type; only the highest bonus applies."
-RC

If a power has the implement keyword but no weapon keyword, you choose whether to use the ki focus or the offhand implement for the power.

Hope that helps a little. Also, whoever knows better, feel free to correct me. 

Hexblade weapon/implement rules are a little tricky, and the Character Builder nearly always gets them wrong.

You're not actually ki focusing the pact weapon.  You're attacking with the ki focus (the Hexblade attacks all have the Implement keyword) and with the pact weapon (the Hexblade attacks also have the Weapon keyword, except for the dailies and Eldritch Bolt). 

It's a subtle difference, but it is a difference.  You still get your "good stuff" but in a way that's completely different from the way weapon attacks gain good stuff from a ki focus for other classes.

Edit:  Upon further review, it appears that you're trying to manifest the pact weapon with the wand, and attack with the wand and a ki-focused pact weapon.  Can't be done.  The pact weapon is not a magic weapon.  You get one implement's worth of cool toys, the one you use to manifest the pact weapon.  Nothing else.

And typed bonuses still don't stack, even if you could.

Sep 24, 2012 -- 9:37PM, Mand12 wrote:

Edit:  Upon further review, it appears that you're trying to manifest the pact weapon with the wand, and attack with the wand and a ki-focused pact weapon.  Can't be done.  The pact weapon is not a magic weapon.  You get one implement's worth of cool toys, the one you use to manifest the pact weapon.  Nothing else.

And typed bonuses still don't stack, even if you could.

You can ki focus a non-magic weapon.  Just like a monk can ki focus his unarmed strike.  But you're right, typed (enhancement) bonuses wouldn't stack in the case of a weapon and implement hexblade power.  But you would get the properties and other goodies of the two (wand and ki focus) implements...

@Dzance

That would mean, a hexblade wielding an off-hand wand and a slotless implement (ki focus in this case) would gain the propreties, critical bonuses and powers from BOTH implements? Barring of course the enhancement bonus which doesn't stack anyway ?

Trippy ... 

@DrakonianThunder:  Yes to all of the above.  You are making a weapon attack with a pact weapon that is 'ki-focused,' and at the same time are making an implement attack with the off-hand implement (using a hexblade power with both weapon and implement keywords).  Typed bonuses don't stack, but everything else does.

It is one of the only redeeming features that hexblades get over straight warlocks.  That and the stat modifier bonus to all targets of close/area/zone attacks.

I generally just lurk in the optimization threads and my grasp of the rules isn't always the best so I have a question and a couple of things I thought I'd point out that could perhaps be updated in the handbook.

I don't see it anywhere in the compendium, are the pact weapons medium sized weapons? If so how do they work for pixies?

The Feats section talks about not having an official answer for the use of Arcane Implement Proficiency and Dual Implement Spellcaster. I often see a lot of complaints and arguments about customer service answers, but they did answer this one here. Does that count as an official answer?

Also, it is already rated light blue, but the Rod of the Dragonborn could perhaps use mention of its usefulness to elemental pact hexblades. I know it should be pretty apparent, but some times us non-optimizers can overlook things like that.

Yes, they're medium-sized weapons.  If your DM is really being a stickler then it'd take a minor action to manifest the pact weapon, and another minor action to Shrink it.  I've never had a DM be that much of a jerk, though.  The ones that actually cared whether I'd manifested it or not let me manifest it as already Tiny, because that makes sense.

DIS is still a bit nebulous, personally I don't believe the 'shares' language allows for it to work, but many other people do.  CustServ answers, you should know, are awful.  They're reliably unreliable, to the point where it's trivial to get multiple directly-contradicting answers just by asking the same question more than once.  Nothing CustServ says should ever be taken as official.

DIS is not nebulous in the slightest, Mand is simply wrong and stubborn. You need to be proficient with your pact weapon as an implement for it to work. That's it.

In the builder you can actually use a Ki-Focus with the weapon. Ki focus + Rod and you can make use of dual implement caster. If you are going monk MC get the Soaring Blade PP and be super mega imba at lvl 16! I does require a Con build ofcourse.

Funny, I was reading through the beginning of this thread and got to page 25 before I got tired of the debating about the implements, so skipped forward to the end and found that two years later the debate rages on.  I didn't see what the confusion was, so I kept on reading until it clicked.  

I had always read the powers as the pact weapon being the weapon AND the implement (it being an extension of the implement that created it).  It just seemed logical that the implement/weapon keywords applied to the same item, which is why the pact weapon is required.  For example, you could use a rod to create the weapon, stow the rod in your pack, and use the weapon one-handed with nothing else and it works because it's effectively both the weapon and implement.  That's why dual implement spellcaster works fine, because the pact weapon is already the implement being used for the power.  In fact, you don't even need a ki focus.  You could use two rods.  One to create the weapon and give it its properties, the other to hold in hand and get the shield bonus and DIS bonus from, as well as any other usefull properties it might have.

However, based on RAW I see where you're all coming from now, and have to say they really DID do a poor wording job.

On another note, I'm guessing Lord Ventnor gave up on this, as there doesn't seem to be much updating.  Anyone want to take up the mantle and finish this guide?

Finally, has anyone else looked at the Draconic Incarnation's L30 ability to grab two arcane dailies up to 25th level from any arcane class?  The artificer's Synchronized Weaponry combined with the swordmage's Quicksilver Blade seem like VERY effective powers, and the ED overall looks great for any hexblade.

What is there to update?  They haven't done much with the Hexblade since they crapped it out of wherever barreling charge came from.