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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2010 - 7:02PM
#11
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2006
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I'll try to keep this simple, as someone who plays and enjoys both flavours of D&D
4e
Pros
- Really good at what it does and its style of game (heroic high fantasy)
- Very well balanced
- Easy to DM, easy prep time
- Easy to reflavour and refluff
- Excellent online tools (cost extra)
- Regular brand new material
- Encourages teamwork
- Easy to learn
- Skill challenges adds mechanical framework for social and out-of-combat encounters
- New books readily available in stores
Cons
- Long combats with grind
- Hard to threaten high-level PCs
- "Everything is Core" means an overabundance of player options
- Regular errata changes rules and possibly invalidates books
- Skill challenges still a work in progress and easy to do poorly
- System less adept at other play styles / genres (low magic, low power, low fantasy)
- Characters all roughly the same complexity (until Essentials)
Pathfinder
Pros
- Wealth of material available
- Material and options easier to limit
- Rules available online for free
- Fewer new books and content released
- Fewer updates and changes to rules
- System more flexible to alternate styles of play
- Strong and devoted fan community
- Used books tend to be cheaper
Cons
- Less balanced rules
- Higher risk of fatalities
- More potential for broken characters
- Potential for combat grind
- Harder to learn
- Less available in stores
- No easy-to-use e-tools
There are other considerations, such as if you're running a pre-written module or not. It's easier and faster to convert 3.5 to Pathfinder than 3.5 to 4e, but much, much more work to convert a 4e adventure to Pathfinder. Converting 1e-2e can be as much work for either, depending on your resources and the time you to spend. Really, when alls said and done, the deciding factor will be what do the players want to play? And what books they have.
I have been DMing 4E since it came out, and I DMed 3E for 7 years before that, now I am on to Pathfinder.
I totally agree with this up right up until the the last 2 cons on PF, The books are readily available at borders, barns&noble and most FLGS. Not to mention Amazon for 30% off 
as for no tools, there are 2 i can name off the top of my head, PCGen and HeroLabs the latter being the semi-offical character builder. On top of that there are quite a few fan made spread sheets and even websites that print spell cards if you want them.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2010 - 7:06PM
#12
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Date Joined:
Mar 22, 2005
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that's like the opposite of chekov's gun.
the gun itself is a seemingly innocuous object that does get used/becomes important eventually.
-scene opens at Canadian Tire. Guy McGuyver is doing renovations on his house and is buying tools/supplies.
-shoves tools in car, goes home, starts eating dinner with wife.
-knock on door, HOLY CRAP ZOMBIES!
-Guy and Wifey McGuyver jump in car, drive to school where the gates are locked... Guy remembers he bought that hacksaw for cutting away piping for the renovations! hacks through gate, oh no, door is stuck... but he bought the wrecking bar! grabs kids, drives to Hawaii.
3rd ed SRD, character sheets, errata & free modules4th ed test drive - modules, starter rules, premade characters and character builder & character sheet, errata Free maps and portraits, dice, printable graph paper, campaign managing website, image manipulation program + token maker & zone markers"All right, I've been thinking. When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back. GET MAD! I DON'T WANT YOUR **** LEMONS! WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THESE?! DEMAND TO SEE LIFE'S MANAGER! Make life RUE the day it thought it could give CAVE JOHNSON LEMONS! DO YOU KNOW WHO I AM?! I'M THE MAN WHO'S GONNA BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN! WITH THE LEMONS! I'm gonna get my engineers to invent a combustible lemon that's gonna BURN YOUR HOUSE DOWN!" -Cave Johnson, Portal 2
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2010 - 7:17PM
#13
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Date Joined:
Sep 25, 2006
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I posted the 4e vs Pathfinder thread, and gave up reading on page 20 when it became obvious that the thread had somehow converted to an argument on weapons and damage.
Without anyone ranting against the other editions can I get some inputs on problems found IN GAME with 4e and Pathfinder? What that means is I don't want anyone ranting about projected problems, I want actual problems that have cropped up while playing the game. Please, no ranting on why one edition sucks and the other is so much better
In 3E and in Pathfinder there is a likelyhood that someone will create a combination that is too good or really bad. That is the nature of having lots of options, some are good and some not so good. When this happens in my games it usually comes down to this. Is the problem causing myself or anyone at the table to not have fun. If the answer is yes the player can just make changes to bring the character back in line, it really is that simple.
IMO when people sit down at a table to play an RPG, they are usually friends and thus they all want to have fun. If you where playing baseball with your friends and one of them was really good you would expect him to go easy on you and also lend advice that would help you improve your game. The same follows with playing an RPG.
In the end only you and your group can pick which one is best for you
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2010 - 7:17PM
#14
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4e is very static outside of essentials, which is either a good thing or a bad thing depending.
In PF everyone I think feels distinctly different.
I find the Tanking mechanics and monster variety an outstanding plus for 4e.
I think PF really falters in this department in comparison of options and quality. I mean supernatural abilities/spell like abilities are all fine and dandy, but I don't think they are nearly as fun as the monsters in 4e.
I disagree with some of the above, I think 4e can be challenging to DM in terms of combats for alot of reasons. It takes effort to keep combats moving along quickly, it can tough to threaten high level players, and it can be tough to incorporate skill challenges in an organic way.
Pathfinder is more lethal I think and easier to incorporate things like traps and "skill challenges" which are in essence just non-combat encounters.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2010 - 7:19PM
#15
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I totally agree with this up right up until the the last 2 cons on PF, The books are readily available at borders, barns&noble and most FLGS. Not to mention Amazon for 30% off
And Paizo sells the PDFs for $10. I'm not saying it's hard to find but while almost every store that sells gaming products has 4e books, only "most FLGS" sell Pathfinder. There's many that just don't or only have limited selections of books. as for no tools, there are 2 i can name off the top of my head, PCGen and HeroLabs the latter being the semi-offical character builder. On top of that there are quite a few fan made spread sheets and even websites that print spell cards if you want them.
I tend to use HeroForge myself, but needing both Excel and the patience to use a program lacking an UI makes it hard to put that in a "pro" column. Having not tried the licensed tools I was wary about listing them and comparing them to the universal Pro that is the D&D character builder.
Before posting, ask yourself WWWS: What Would Wrecan Say? Spoiler:
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My Webcomic
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Read my blog on the WotC Community Site (updated irregularly to avoid spamming the "Featured Blogger" list).
You can follow me on Twitter: "@DnDJester"
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2010 - 7:20PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
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I find the system mastery leans more on the DMs side than the players in 4e.
You need system mastery to use Minions properly...
You need system mastery to use Solos properly...
You need system mastery to use Skill Challenges properly...
You need system mastery due to the different sets of rules for PCs and Monsters
You need system mastery to make or improve monsters...
You need system mastery to run a combat that does not grind....
I have a good grasp on the 4e system...I still dislike minions and only use solos sparingly...I have tried skill challenges a number of times and most of the time they fell flat because skill challenges are just not a good mechanic in some situations...
Pf has its problems that are inherited form the 3e system. These are well documented and any length of stay on these boards asking about the 3e/PF game systems will get you a metric crap tonne of people and their thoughts on it.
One thing that Paizo has that is much better done in PF than WotC has in 4e...Their game worlds and the adventures they produce for the worlds. I am a HUGE FR fan...I love that world...but even the rich history that Faerun has is pale, IMHO, to what Paizo has in Golarion.
I like 4e...i prefer to DM it also....even with the system mastery i feel is needed to be a DM...
But I love what PF is as a game as a whole.
i am almost to the point that I will be leaving 4e to run PF..not sue to the 4e system..but due to WotC...but that is not for this thread.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2010 - 7:22PM
#17
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You need system mastery to use Solos properly...
Have you found that to be the case even after the changes they made to solo monsters?
Why Mechanics-Alignment Integration is Bad
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so why even play a fighter if you can play the paladin the exact same way behaviorally and get added power to boot. "Paladin" is about accepting better game-enhancing mechanics at the price of more rigid in game behavior.
Really? So it goes something like this?
Fighter: "I want to be a paladin."
NPC: "Really?"
Fighter: "Yes."
NPC: "Very well." Starts reading from a holy book while still in-character "Do you accept having to choose and stick to the lawful good alignment, eventhough neither of us actually knows that it exists or what it is?"
Fighter: "I do."
NPC: "Do you reject good game balance because you accidentally rolled a high Charisma?"
Fighter: "What?"
NPC: "I don't know what it means either."
Fighter: "Oh. Umm, ok I do."
NPC: "In the name of all that is metagamey and broken, accept these better game enhancing mechanics."
Fighter: "These what?"
NPC: "Just get out there and try to fulfill a million different people's notion of good while not violating and part of any of them."
So the system is designed such that every single hit needs to be described to avoid confusion? Here's a scenario. The players are nudists, everybody in the world are nudists, it's not weird, it's totally normal in this land. They are naked and they fight drakes taking damage throughout, but healing up with surges. Later they meet the guy who raised the drakes.
Part 1: I didn't describe any of the hits. What does he see?
Part 2: Lets say I described the drakes as biting the players, yet they healed up. What does he see?
D20 Modern Toon PC Race.
Mecha Pilot's Skill Challenge Emporium.
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2010 - 7:23PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
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that's like the opposite of chekov's gun.
the gun itself is a seemingly innocuous object that does get used/becomes important eventually.
-scene opens at Canadian Tire. Guy McGuyver is doing renovations on his house and is buying tools/supplies.
-shoves tools in car, goes home, starts eating dinner with wife.
-knock on door, HOLY CRAP ZOMBIES!
-Guy and Wifey McGuyver jump in car, drive to school where the gates are locked... Guy remembers he bought that hacksaw for cutting away piping for the renovations! hacks through gate, oh no, door is stuck... but he bought the wrecking bar! grabs kids, drives to Hawaii.
That was GawdDammed hilarious bro...Where are you in canada?
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2010 - 7:24PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Oct 12, 2009
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You need system mastery to use Solos properly...
Have you found that to be the case even after the changes they made to solo monsters?
Maybe not as much, cause I did not buy MM3...
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2 years ago ::
Nov 22, 2010 - 7:34PM
#20
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Date Joined:
May 24, 2010
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You need system mastery to use Solos properly...
Have you found that to be the case even after the changes they made to solo monsters?
Maybe not as much, cause I did not buy MM3...
Every Dm I ever played with said that mm3 and monster vault are amazing because they learned alot of their mistakes from the first two monster manuals.
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